Renting Woes, Need Experiences Take 2

SWMBO pointed out something today...

We have actually not received any paper correspondence on this subject yet. Only email, which i have not responded to. (Their email address does not accept incoming mail.)

Do i even need to give a single E36 M3 about this until there's an actual document sent to me? They were given our forwarding physical address the day we moved out.

I did some more research on this a couple weeks ago.

Turns out that they have 45 days from date of vacancy to either

A) Provide a bill for damages that exceed "normal wear and tear"
or
B) Refund full deposit

They are required per Indiana law to do one of these things within 45 days of vacancy, by MAIL.

So today, i'm sending them a form letter informing them that 49 days have passed and they are now legally required to refund the full security deposit, or i'll see them in court thankyouverymuch. Will be sending via certified mail.

Could be fun.

I like where this is going

Swank Force One wrote: So essentially I was right? They cannot legally send it to collections prior to it going to court?

Collections agencies buy debts from others, usually for pennies on the dollar. Then then attempt to enforce the debt, knowing they will lose many, but enough will pay to make it profitable for them.

There is no requirement for a court or a legal decision for a collections agency to buy the debt or attempt to enforce it. All that is needed is the willingness of someone to sell them a debt, and their willingness to buy it.

I think you and Datsun1500 are mixing up garnishment with collections. Garnishments typically come from a court decision, but not always.

Not throw anything else into the mix, but I won a small claims court battle once over a car repair. To be blunt, it wasn't worth the time spent away from work. I won, but there was no recourse in how I collected the money. The business that did the work wouldn't pay, and legally all the court would do is say he owned me the money. After a few years he declared chapter 11 and went on his merry way with a different name. I never collected a dime and spent much more than the original bill.

What you need to do is look at what you signed, and if it says estimate, you're hosed. That leaves the door open for whatever charge they make. But, if they didn't supply that in writing, then you may be OK. In some states however an email may suffice, so you may not be out of the woods yet. Back when I rented, I AWAYS took photos on move in and move out. You never know when something may come up when you would need them. On the move in photos, I usually took them when the manager was present so he or she knew that I did it and would retain them for any questions. It seemed to help.

Good luck with the upcoming battle!

foxtrapper wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: So essentially I was right? They cannot legally send it to collections prior to it going to court?

Collections agencies buy debts from others, usually for pennies on the dollar. Then then attempt to enforce the debt, knowing they will lose many, but enough will pay to make it profitable for them. There is no requirement for a court or a legal decision for a collections agency to buy the debt or attempt to enforce it. All that is needed is the willingness of someone to sell them a debt, and their willingness to buy it. I think you and Datsun1500 are mixing up garnishment with collections. Garnishments typically come from a court decision, but not always.

Ok let me put this another way: No way in HELL do i want anything relating to this as a negative mark on swmbo or my own credit.

I'm really not worried about a garnishment, since that won't happen. What i WOULD be worried about would be some sketchball at that place ruining credit because they don't know the state laws.

racerdave600 wrote: Not throw anything else into the mix, but I won a small claims court battle once over a car repair. To be blunt, it wasn't worth the time spent away from work. I won, but there was no recourse in how I collected the money. The business that did the work wouldn't pay, and legally all the court would do is say he owned me the money. After a few years he declared chapter 11 and went on his merry way with a different name. I never collected a dime and spent much more than the original bill. What you need to do is look at what you signed, and if it says estimate, you're hosed. That leaves the door open for whatever charge they make. But, if they didn't supply that in writing, then you may be OK. In some states however an email may suffice, so you may not be out of the woods yet. Back when I rented, I AWAYS took photos on move in and move out. You never know when something may come up when you would need them. On the move in photos, I usually took them when the manager was present so he or she knew that I did it and would retain them for any questions. It seemed to help. Good luck with the upcoming battle!

I wouldn't go to court to get $99 back. I'll go to court to avoid paying a good chunk of change that i shouldn't have to pay, though.

Swank Force One wrote: Ok let me put this another way: No way in HELL do i want anything relating to this as a negative mark on swmbo or my own credit.

Then pay it and move on. For otherwise, it's quite like to happen.

Swank Force One wrote: I'm really not worried about a garnishment, since that won't happen.

Because surprises never happen in court? Don't be so confident that you couldn't loose.

You didn't describe a set price for carpet cleaning, you described it as approximate, with price variance for the sizes of the units. You seem to have interpreted that as being some sort of lock in on price. It wasn't. You assumed your unit would be cheapest, there's no clear or binding reason to assume that. The terms you listed specifically allow then to vary the price, they did so. Based on what you've presented, you're legally on the hook for it.

They've no legal obligation to let you inspect their repairs to the unit you vacated. That will get laughed out by the judge in court. You can attempt to claim the carpet was old when you moved in, but unless you present proof it's just an unsubstantiated claim that will also get tossed out.

You could argue reasonable wear and tear. That could get you somewhere. But where will be up to the judge, and the specific landlord tenant laws of your jurisdiction.

So at best, you can spend a bit of money on a fight in court where I think you'll likely lose, while having your credit rating dinged. Or, you pay a few hundred bucks and move on. Your choice.

foxtrapper wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Ok let me put this another way: No way in HELL do i want anything relating to this as a negative mark on swmbo or my own credit.

Then pay it and move on. For otherwise, it's quite like to happen.

Swank Force One wrote: I'm really not worried about a garnishment, since that won't happen.

Because surprises never happen in court? Don't be so confident that you couldn't loose. You didn't describe a set price for carpet cleaning, you described it as approximate, with price variance for the sizes of the units. You seem to have interpreted that as being some sort of lock in on price. It wasn't. You assumed your unit would be cheapest, there's no clear or binding reason to assume that. The terms you listed specifically allow then to vary the price, they did so. Based on what you've presented, you're legally on the hook for it. They've no legal obligation to let you inspect their repairs to the unit you vacated. That will get laughed out by the judge in court. You can attempt to claim the carpet was old when you moved in, but unless you present proof it's just an unsubstantiated claim that will also get tossed out. You could argue reasonable wear and tear. That could get you somewhere. But where will be up to the judge, and the specific landlord tenant laws of your jurisdiction. So at best, you can spend a bit of money on a fight in court where I think you'll likely lose, while having your credit rating dinged. Or, you pay a few hundred bucks and move on. Your choice.

A garnishment isn't going to happen because if it goes to court and i lose, i'll just pay on the spot with money i can't really afford to pay.

I'm well aware the original cost wasn't a dead set price. I'm also aware of the estimate laws in this state.

So your advice is: "Roll over and take it up the ass like a good American from the landlord that isn't following the rules."

Right? Just to be clear.

In reply to Swank Force One:

Well you do own Miata's....jus' sayin'

Is this the apts I lived in? Were you in one of the newly remodeled units? If not I guarantee they put in new carpet because all of the old units were getting remodeled when the tenents move out. All we did was vaccum and got our deposit back because they told us it was getting redone anyway. That was July 2012.

moparman76_69 wrote: Is this the apts I lived in? Were you in one of the newly remodeled units? If not I guarantee they put in new carpet because all of the old units were getting remodeled when the tenents move out. All we did was vaccum and got our deposit back because they told us it was getting redone anyway. That was July 2012.

We had one of the last two "Phase 1" apartments in our building.

I'm 99.9% sure there's shiny new hardwood in that place now.

However, due to Indiana Code, it doesn't matter what they did, because they failed to follow the rules, and as such, are not legally entitled to ANY sort of money from me.

The "berkeley you, Pay me" letter has been written and will be delivered on Friday.

I was going to ask location, because that is very important, but I see Indiana.

I had two apartment complexes do this to me in the past, neither one of them followed the rules with invoicing or allowing me to make the repairs or do a proper post walk through with me so that I could do them myself. I corresponded with them briefly and basically told them to F off. I didn't end up paying either one of them a dime, they just slinked off to the corner from where they came and left me alone because they know they screwed up.

There is hope. This is in CA though, which is pretty renter friendly. Your results may vary.

Yeah, code in this state very specifically states that a written notice of damages and/or refund of deposit are due no later than 45 days from date of vacancy.

If nothing is recieved, this constitutes legal agreement that there are no damages owed to the landlord and the deposit must be remitted back to the tenant in the full amount.

They got a letter which outline each of the 4 sections that would berkeley them in court. This is honestly pretty cut and dry.

Swank Force One wrote: So your advice is: "Roll over and take it up the ass like a good American from the landlord that isn't following the rules." Right? Just to be clear.

Read my words as you wish. I mistakenly took you at your word regarding your aversion to running any risk to your credit report.

turboswede wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Well you do own Miata's....jus' sayin'

BOOM, rimshot.

foxtrapper wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: So your advice is: "Roll over and take it up the ass like a good American from the landlord that isn't following the rules." Right? Just to be clear.

Read my words as you wish. I mistakenly took you at your word regarding your aversion to running any risk to your credit report.

I do have an aversion to that. But it sortof puts me in a catch22 with the picture you paint, doesn't it?

Either i A) take a hit of over $400 total to avoid a credit hit over something that can't legally be collected at this point, or B) i go to to court and lose anyways?

Sorry if i snapped, but i don't understand how this sort of thing even happens. There's laws to protect you from getting rolled like this, but you seem to paint it as a no-win situation at this point. Maybe it's the reality? But that's berkeleying sad.

yamaha wrote:

turboswede wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Well you do own Miata's....jus' sayin'

BOOM, rimshot.

Pun intended?

Ok so...

I got the certified mail receipt showing that the "berkeley you, pay me" letter was signed for on the 17th.

And then...

On Monday, got a collections notice dated the 16th.

Greaaaaaaaat.

What do i do now? Send the debt collector a certified letter disputing the date, sending them a copy of the "berkeley you, pay me" letter as well, letting them know that they're attempting to collect on an invalid/illegal debt?

I have 30 days with them to contest/make payment, but i'm guessing it's already been reported to credit, or will be shortly, yes?

Orrrr... do i wait until i file in court, then send the collector a letter explaining that this debt is being contested with the original debtor?

In court, will i now have to mess around with BOTH the apartments and the collector?

ARG.

We ran into this sort of thing for a $900 deposit, had plenty of pictures to back up our description of the place as we left it, then went straight to court when we realized the landlord would not be cooperative. My wife wanted to just walk away from it because of the trouble of having to go to court multiple times, but I was pissed. In the end we won, but he still didn't pay, so we had to file papers to have his checking account freezed. After that he paid pretty quick. We didn't wait for any time to pass, so ours didn't go to a creditor for no pay.

All in all the whole process was a real pain, but it was worth it to stick it to the guy (and to get the $900 back). I got the most satisfaction out of being able to freeze his account.....hopefully he had a lot of checks out that bounced. Now, for $400 I don't know that I'd go through it all again....but I might

I would contact the collection company with the letter information.

I'm looking at the whole "is it worth it?" thing three ways.

1) $400 is a lot of money to me
2) Principle of things. The law should be there to protect me, not strong-arm me
3) I don't have E36 M3 else to do this winter, my case is pretty clear-cut, and this will be pretty good practice if the current landlord decides to pull similar bullE36 M3 on me over an almost $2k deposit.

bgkast, just send them a certified letter explaining that their debt is invalid, here's a copy of the letter, and please be berkeleying off and reversing any credit reporting you may have done, thankyouverymuch?

I'm ASSuming i should do this now, and don't wait until court things.

your letter was delivered on the 17th, but when did you send it?

you say their letter is dated the 16th? is there a postmark on the envelope that agrees with that?

just curious.

failboat wrote: your letter was delivered on the 17th, but when did you send it? you say their letter is dated the 16th? is there a postmark on the envelope that agrees with that? just curious.

Sent on the 16th.

The collection letter came from Florida and was dated the 16th. There's no way they got the agency to send the letter in response, that thought did cross my mind. I don't remember what the postmark on their envelope said. I might still have it.

The close dates is just coincidence.

Here's a copy of the "FU pay me" letter, for anyone interested.

Apartments
Address
October 15, 2014

Dear XXXXXXXXXX Apartments,

On August 25, 2014, my wife and I turned in our keys and our new mailing address to terminate our lease, after giving the required advance notice per said lease.

To date, we have received no correspondence from you concerning our security deposit of $99.00 that we paid when the original lease was signed in October of 2009.

Indiana State Code IC 32-31-3-12a/b and 32-31-3-14 covers the law on this subject and states that the deposit, less any amount applied to damages outlined in a written notice, must be delivered to the tenant within 45 days. If the landlord fails to comply with this code, the tenant may recover the full amount of the security deposit minus damages and attorney’s fees.

Indiana State Code IC 32-31-3-15 and 32-31-3-16 state that failure to provide written notice within 45 days constitutes agreement by the landlord that no damages are due, and the landlord must reimburse the tenant for the full security deposit amount and is now held liable to the tenant for that amount plus attorney’s fees and court costs.

Today marks the 51st day that the unit has been vacated by us and we have received no written correspondence from your office.

Please send a check for $99.00 to reimburse the security deposit on or before November 1st, 2014. If we do not receive payment by that date, we will be forced to file the case in small claims court. I remind you that under IC 32-31-3-16 you will be held liable for court costs.

Sincerely,
Swank Force One
New Address