Riots in Ferguson

In reply to GameboyRMH:

Well, as far as I know, I believe he did call for backup, or at least backup arrived shortly after Brown was shot, why he didn't wait for backup to arrive before trying to take down this apparent hulk of a man, I do not know. Unless Brown really did charge him (after being shot already mind you), then he really didn't have much other choice.

What it really comes down to, is what happened after the incident at the car. I would not blame Wilson for defending himself in an almost indefensible position in the driver's seat, but I'm almost inclined to think that Wilson may have pulled the trigger a little prematurely outside. Brown obviously turned towards Wilson in the street as all of the bullet wounds were to the front, but if Brown was charging, that I'm not so sure about.

Brown already knew Wilson wasn't afraid to use the gun, even if he at first thought he was, he already shot him once. If he was dumb enough to charge after that, well...

aircooled wrote:

During the investigation at the scene, Detective [redacted] also noted and directed his attention to the apartment building known and numbered as 2960 Canfield Drive. Detective [redacted] observed this building's exterior consisted of brick and vinyl siding. On the north side of this building, was damage consistent with having been struck by a projectile. The damage was to the vinyl siding above the easternmost window on the first level. Detectives from the Saint Louis County Police Department's Crime Scene Unit attempted to extract a possible projectile from the building but were unable to do so due to the construction of the building and the significant structural damage that would have been required to remove an item. The interior of the building was checked and there was no penetration to the interior of the apartment.

That building (as can be seen here: diagram ) is to the rear of the vehicle. Possible it was shot from within the car? Possible, but it would clearly need to be looked into more (I suspect if it went through the door first the ballistics would show that). Not a certainty that he shot at him while fleeing, but it's certainly a possibility (and something that the officer would wisely deny).

Firstly, thank you for raising questions about the situation based upon physical evidence, rather than conflicting testimony.

It is understood he fired two shots while in the car. According to the diagram, they collected two shell casings near the car. All the others were much further up the street. The SUV remained parked where it was left during the investigation, so presumably there were no other casings inside it.

So, it looks like he probably only fired those two shots. Perhaps the one that hit Brown's hand was deflected into that corner of the building? Or is it more likely a bullet casing was missed? Does the total number of bullet casings recovered match the number of rounds the officer fired?

Wanderer wrote: I would not blame Wilson for defending himself in an almost indefensible position in the driver's seat, but I'm almost inclined to think that Wilson may have pulled the trigger a little prematurely outside. Brown obviously turned towards Wilson in the street as all of the bullet wounds were to the front, but if Brown was charging, that I'm not so sure about.

How fast or aggressively Brown was moving is very unclear. However, forensic evidence seems to pretty clearly indicate that Brown was advancing on the officer when he was shot. There is a blood splatter from earlier shots that hit Brown about 35' up the street from where Brown's body and the blood from the fatal wound were. So, Brown apparently covered 35' towards the officer between volleys of shots.

In reply to Beer Baron:

If he fired 2 shots inside the car, it wouldn't surprise me if the ones marked 3 & 4 on that diagram were them. Casings love to bounce and can otherwise be moved by clothing as well.

Wanderer wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: Well, as far as I know, I believe he did call for backup, or at least backup arrived shortly after Brown was shot, why he didn't wait for backup to arrive before trying to take down this apparent hulk of a man, I do not know. Unless Brown really did charge him (after being shot already mind you), then he really didn't have much other choice. What it really comes down to, is what happened after the incident at the car. I would not blame Wilson for defending himself in an almost indefensible position in the driver's seat, but I'm almost inclined to think that Wilson may have pulled the trigger a little prematurely outside. Brown obviously turned towards Wilson in the street as all of the bullet wounds were to the front, but if Brown was charging, that I'm not so sure about. Brown already knew Wilson wasn't afraid to use the gun, even if he at first thought he was, he already shot him once. If he was dumb enough to charge after that, well...

Well, considering his head was likely still a bit woozy from the punches to the face, the gunshots in the car would have his ears ringing beyond belief and partly deaf. Add to that the adrenaline surge from A.) being punched in the face and 2.) fighting for your gun and I'm sure he wasn't as clear headed as one would normally be.

I'd love to see any of the armchair QB's here handle it and make it out alive.

The simple solution to all this?

A.) don't rob a store and assault the owner.

2.) don't walk down the middle of a street after commiting the felony.

iii.)Don't punch a cop in the face while he's still in the car.

d.) Don't try to grab the cops gun.

Don't do any of those 4 things and I guarantee you'll be more likely to not wind up dead.

Also remember the "shot in the head" can mean anything from a scratch on the cheek to a bullet in the brain. The first one was the scratch. Even what you would consider a major head wound it not incapacitating. People have lost their jaw and still fought on. Adrenalin is an amazing drug.

Beer Baron wrote: How fast or aggressively Brown was moving is very unclear. However, forensic evidence seems to pretty clearly indicate that Brown was advancing on the officer when he was shot. There is a blood splatter from earlier shots that hit Brown about 35' up the street from where Brown's body and the blood from the fatal wound were. So, Brown apparently covered 35' towards the officer between volleys of shots.

That's a decent distance to cover and would seem to indicate he was running fairly quickly.

As was said earlier in this thread, this wasn't the ideal incident to rally around it seems. Oh well, the ball is already rolling now.

In reply to Wanderer:

Why wouldn't he pursue him? That's his job as an officer. The man had just committed a felony (assaulting a law enforcement officer) and was fleeing the scene. He is required to pursue if able.

He could wait for back up before attempting to arrest Brown, but to not pursue would be negligent.

Wanderer wrote:

Beer Baron wrote: How fast or aggressively Brown was moving is very unclear. However, forensic evidence seems to pretty clearly indicate that Brown was advancing on the officer when he was shot. There is a blood splatter from earlier shots that hit Brown about 35' up the street from where Brown's body and the blood from the fatal wound were. So, Brown apparently covered 35' towards the officer between volleys of shots.

That's a decent distance to cover and would seem to indicate he was running fairly quickly. As was said earlier in this thread, this wasn't the ideal incident to rally around it seems. Oh well, the ball is already rolling now.

Agreed, but that isn't necessarily the distance between individual shots. Wilson's testimony, other testimony, and audio recording from the scene indicate multiple volleys while Brown advances on the officer, and possibly the officer shouting for him to stop between volleys. Basically: fired and hit; pause to see if he stopped (probably order to stop); failed to stop; fired second volley.

Charging or walking, if you advance on an officer who has already had reason to shoot at you, he's going to keep shooting at you.

yamaha wrote: In reply to Beer Baron: If he fired 2 shots inside the car, it wouldn't surprise me if the ones marked 3 & 4 on that diagram were them. Casings love to bounce and can otherwise be moved by clothing as well.

Yes. 3 & 4 are probably them. If he fired one or more other shots at a fleeing Brown from next to the car where they could have hit the building, you would expect to find other bullet casings around there.

I've seen statistics that said the most cops killed in the line of duty are killed with their own guns. So, 300 lb of muscle trying to take your gun from you? The cop did what he had to do to keep from getting killed himself.

If someone wants to link to the actual autopsy report from a real pathologist, I'll read it and translate. All I have seen is news media reporting on what someone else read.

And the news media has an agenda with all this, trying to stir up a racial war, near as I can tell, or a civil war, maybe. I thought they were going to do it last year with the Zimmerman case, but that one fizzled. That's why you see another one of these cases come up every week. They just throw enough out there and see what sticks/takes off. Like that 12 year old pointing what looks to be a real handgun at people, including cops, then gets himself killed. After that one fizzles, there will be another one.

In reply to danvan:

Would you say that there is a perception amongst the African-Canadian population that they are treated unfairly by the police, or would such a statement be dismissed as nonsense?

In reply to Dr. Hess:

here: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/25/366507379/ferguson-docs-how-the-grand-jury-reached-a-decision?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2050

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371273-2014-5143-autopsy-report.html

I have tried to ignore this story, because even if the cops are right in this situation, they are still wrong in societies or the media's agenda. Some facts: Brown was a criminal there is no disputing other than whether he charged the cop or not. Regardless if whether the cop is in the right or wrong, he will probably never be a cop again, and frankly few would take the liability to hire him anywhere. So while people were rioting, did they consider that this person’s life is effected regardless? Where the parents of the criminal to focused on picking up their parents of the year title to notice, they did a crap job and should be ashamed. What about the poor folks that did nothing and had their property destroyed in a riot, perhaps the ST. Louis Rams can put down their hands down and write them a check.

Looks like the fatal round went in right at the top of his head. The bullet stayed in his face (did not exit). This is consistent with him charging at the cop (DRH conjucture.) No soot, no power residue/stipple, was not point blank or real close. The bullet traveled down and to the right. That was not survivable.

Another GSW to forehead, down and right. Appears to not have entered the skull, but went under the skin, down through the eye and the jaw. That was survivable and porobably would not have stopped him (DRH conjucture.)

Shot in the right upper chest at his "collar bone" in layman's terms, with the bullet going down and back. Also consistent with charging the po-po (DRH conjucture.)

Another GSW to the chest, down and back track.

Another GSW to front of right arm, entering the front. More GSWs to the right forearm.

All consistent with the po-po and eye-witness' story and not consistent with the thug's BFF's story (DRH conjucture.)

Woody wrote: In reply to danvan: Would you say that there is a perception amongst the African-Canadian population that they are treated unfairly by the police, or would such a statement be dismissed as nonsense?

We don't have Afican-Canadians.

Personally, I find that term offensive, and it's almost impossible to offend me.

In reply to Zomby Woof:

So, you guys are intelligent enough to realize everyone is just a Canadian?

Strangely enough, even those of that racial background down here take offense to their own members referencing themselves as just "American" instead of "African American"

Zomby Woof wrote:

Woody wrote: In reply to danvan: Would you say that there is a perception amongst the African-Canadian population that they are treated unfairly by the police, or would such a statement be dismissed as nonsense?

We don't have Afican-Canadians. Personally, I find that term offensive, and it's almost impossible to offend me.

"Say it polite!"
"I'm black and drink LaBatt!"

yamaha wrote: In reply to Zomby Woof: So, you guys are intelligent enough to realize everyone is just a Canadian? Strangely enough, even those of that racial background down here take offense to their own members referencing themselves as just "American" instead of "African American"

OK, so Canadiavillelandtuckytonia does ONE thing right!

Zomby Woof wrote:

Woody wrote: In reply to danvan: Would you say that there is a perception amongst the African-Canadian population that they are treated unfairly by the police, or would such a statement be dismissed as nonsense?

We don't have Afican-Canadians. Personally, I find that term offensive, and it's almost impossible to offend me.

I was not aware that I had used an offensive term. What is the preferred expression?

danvan wrote: if you kill someone who is robbing your house you will go to jail

Unequivocally incorrect.

Woody wrote: I was not aware that I had used an offensive term. What is the preferred expression?

People? Human beings? Americans?

Racism will not end until people quit labeling themselves, let alone people labeling others.

I'm confused. Am i white or not?

HiTempguy wrote:

Woody wrote: I was not aware that I had used an offensive term. What is the preferred expression?

People? Human beings? Americans?

Those words will not work within the context of my original question. I was asking if a particular group of Canadians perceives that they are treated unfairly by the Canadian police.

Dr. Hess wrote: Looks like the fatal round went in right at the top of his head. The bullet stayed in his face (did not exit). This is consistent with him charging at the cop (DRH conjucture.) No soot, no power residue/stipple, was not point blank or real close. The bullet traveled down and to the right. That was not survivable. Another GSW to forehead, down and right. Appears to not have entered the skull, but went under the skin, down through the eye and the jaw. That was survivable and porobably would not have stopped him (DRH conjucture.) Shot in the right upper chest at his "collar bone" in layman's terms, with the bullet going down and back. Also consistent with charging the po-po (DRH conjucture.) Another GSW to the chest, down and back track. Another GSW to front of right arm, entering the front. More GSWs to the right forearm. All consistent with the po-po and eye-witness' story and not consistent with the thug's BFF's story (DRH conjucture.)