Taking Debt to Your Grave Now Acceptable?

In reply to 93EXCivic :

This is what it looks like for someone who would be in the poverty range staying at home for a engineering degree, $0 debt and they receive a refund. If the parent is middle class or up, they are looking at bridging the gap of $35k or 15-20 year loan around $50k after interest. However these are just the state and federal grants/scholarships, external and internal scholarships could bring it down for someone that is in middle class from $0-$10k ($0 if student has 3.2 GPA or above) or $20k in loans. Add $40k if student wants to live on campus with meal plan. The middle class kids are not eligible for the book fund plan, Food Insecurity program, or any need base scholarships, because FAFSA includes assets, so even if you are in debt as a middle classer you still wouldn't not receive Pell or State Grant. Bottom line if you are middle class and are able to save for start a 529 if you have a trusted family member have it under there name as it wouldn't be considered when awarding finanical aid. 

In reply to trigun7469 :

Some colleges require freshmen and sophomores to stay on campus though, right? 

And not every student will get those scholarships, grants, etc even if they do have the required GPA.

In reply to trigun7469 :

In my case I was not able to live at home and get an aerospace engineering degree as the only school that was within driving distance was a private university that would have cost $35k a year. So I had to live on campus. The university I went to changed the rules while I was there that freshmen and sophomores that didn't have parents living within 15 miles of the campus had to live on campus and they also started requiring meal plans even if you didn't live on campus.

Public universities are too expensive and that isn't just the classes.

In my experience, most colleges and universities require non-commuter students to live on campus and have a meal plan only for their freshman year.  After that, you're on your own if you want to be.

In reply to Duke :

Mine required all students to stay in on-campus housing until senior year unless you were married or got an exemption approved.

Housing is a profit center, and schools know that. 

I grew up poor in a ghetto in Detroit. Nobody went to college that I knew. Most ended up in prison. I hung out with crack dealers and street raced. but I paid attention in school, applied myself (more or less) and when I started working I worked hard. 

I hated school, so PAYING money to continue the hell was not something I was willing to do, and when I thought about it I figured there were plenty of jobs out there that didn't require you to join the Debt Club so you could have a piece of paper saying you know something. Too many people hear "go to school, you'll get a degree and an instant job that will make you rich" and mindlessly jump right in. 

When I was a kid we didn't have anyone as brilliant as Mike Rowe going around and educating us about work and education. 

In reply to DrBoost :

I wanted to be a plumber or electrician when I was in highschool. I soon learned that wiring wasnt my thing lol. But, I joined the Air Force on a whim when my wrestling scholarships fell through due to a major injury my senior year of highschool that meant I could never wrestle competitively ever again. 

Sometimes life doesn't work out. Our Para's make $17.50 / hr  and get about 25 hrs a week on average for whenever the schools are in session.   That's about $15,000 a year  if they are old enough to collect social security that's another $10,000 a year or so.   The bad news is they only get paid when they are needed.  So a few hours in the morning, and a couple in the evening.  
 The rest of the time they sit in the break room watching TV because most don't live nearby and only a few have cars.  
     The guy who rides with me  occasionally is in his 80's. He gets a little more because of seniority with the company. Plus he's getting another 6 weeks for summer school. And probably a  couple hundred more per month than the minimum from Social security. 
     Because his house is paid for all he has to come up with is property taxes. Plus he grows a lot of  his food in his garden so his grocery bill is pretty small.     
    There are a lot who are far worse off.  

In reply to yupididit :

Yes, I mentioned in my other post the residency requirement, the quotes above is a commuter school. If a school requires residency you can go to a community college then transfer to 4 year school. Which is what I did as I was not eligible for anything, my decisions were based on pricing and how much I made at my part time job, not how many frat parties or Movie theaters they have 

About the only people they have the most difficulty receiving scholarships are Internationals, unless they are a athlete. Otherwise they pay everything in full. I would give my students 3 pages of scholarships and explain them, if they were to lazy to apply to them, Colleges can't replace effort.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Some of the students in engineering go to community college first complete most of their degree then transfer. Especially those who came from a school with a weak math dept. Most CC have articulation agreements to make it very seamless, students do not even have to apply to the transfer school. There is a stigma on CC schools is real, honestly a lot of adjuncts taught at 4 year schools so I never had issues. 

One of my students worked part-time at McD's and took all of their non-major courses online, which McDonalds paid for them. Transferred to a 4 year school where they didn't require residency for Juniors and Seniors, found 3 roommates, continued to work at McDonalds, paid $0 tuition dollars. Lots of people made fun of her because she worked at MCD's, but she walked away with a Bachelors and Advanced Certificate $0 debt and $0 dollars paid towards tuition. I spent a lot of time with her discussing her degree options making multiple attempts to completing one that was more marketable, but all she wanted was to check the box. I ran into her couple of years ago in the drive through at MCD's and she became a assistant manager and was happy. She said that she was making more money then her friends and didn't have college debt, and bought a house. She had a firm understanding of expectations vs. reality theory.

trigun7469 said:

In reply to yupididit :

...Some of the students in engineering go to community college first complete most of their degree then transfer...

This is what my youngest is doing. He's looking at majoring in aerospace engineering. Right now, he's living at home and going to a local school to knock out all of the basic courses for pennies compared to the university where he will eventually get his degree. He has a part-time job working for me and so far he is paying most of his own school costs with a little help from me. He will end up graduating with no school debt. 

In reply to Toyman! :

I love hearing these stories.

Tom Suddard said:

In reply to Duke :

Mine required all students to stay in on-campus housing until senior year unless you were married or got an exemption approved.

Housing is a profit center, and schools know that. 

Wow, that is substantially ridiculous.

I've had discussions with my daughter that it's not worth going to private schools unless it's Ivy League or Stanford.  I'm taking her on a tour of my alma mater in a month and have bluntly said to her face that it's not worth going there.  I started a 529 for her the day she was born, same thing for her brother.  I didn't use my GI Bill (and I was active during 9/11, so it's a "special" one) and have assigned it to the kids. 

They're going to be fine tuition wise but things for grad school may be complicated if they go to private schools for both.  I've plainly told my daughter that the amount in her various college accounts is all there is, I won't be kicking in more.  So that if she really wants to be a doctor, she probably should go to a state school because you go to whatever medical school you get into, regardless of cost.  That way she'll hopefully get out of it debt free.  I've also talked to her about the military health professions scholarships, which are amazing.

I don't remember if my Dad had those discussions with me and to be totally honest, I'm not sure my 17 year old self would've really understood what it meant.  That if I'd gone to state college there'd be money for grad school vs me taking on a ton of debt.  Not sure that would've made it thru my reptilian 17 year old brain.  I'm trying to make sure my daughter understands it but again, when you're 17-18 and you really have no idea what you want to do in life, it's hard to plan and understand the ramifications of debt, money, etc even if explained well...

I grew up very poor in a small town, and the nearest college was about an hour's commute away. Like many in my generation, I was told I would be worthless without a degree by people that paid $2,100 for their degree. With the type of jobs an 18-year-old could get, I simply could not afford the nearest college, even living at home, while paying for gas, insurance, and that stuff. So, like many others, I joined the army. Personally, I think that's quite awful--no one should have to potentially risk their life just to get a better education. I never want my son to do that, so I'm saving bits here and there, so hopefully in 20 years he'll have a nest egg to start off with, or pay for college, or be a downpayment on a house. I don't want him to be like me. I started my career at age 39, so I'll probably be working until I'm in the grave. My goal is always zero debt. I hate debt. I want to leave my family with something when I die. 

When you look at how wages haven't kept up with inflation over the last two decades though, I don't have much hope for the future. 

infinitenexus said:

So, like many others, I joined the army. Personally, I think that's quite awful--no one should have to potentially risk their life just to get a better education.

Even if it doesn't cost your life, it seems to frequently take a very high cost on your health. It seems like the overwhelming majority of veterans I know have significant hearing damage, and a high proportion have some sort of minor (or not so minor) neurological damage.

Beer Baron said:

infinitenexus said:

So, like many others, I joined the army. Personally, I think that's quite awful--no one should have to potentially risk their life just to get a better education.

Even if it doesn't cost your life, it seems to frequently take a very high cost on your health. It seems like the overwhelming majority of veterans I know have significant hearing damage, and a high proportion have some sort of minor (or not so minor) neurological damage.

This! Broken back in Afghanistan over 10 years ago and got sent back a year later lol. Hands so messed up that I can barely write with a pen or pencil for more than a minute and working on cars requires lots of drugs. A botched elbow that got worse after surgery. Then there's ptsd and anxiety. I'm still in though. Plenty have it worse than me. My good friend got half his face blown off and now has 1 "working" eye that is steadily going blind. He's 33 like me and just now (last year) started getting the appropriate VA disability rating of 100%. His IED incident was in 2013. His self confidence went to E36 M3 and felt worthless for years and years gained a bunch of weight. He's lost a lot of it now and has a fiancée and doing well in life. But at what cost.

Don't believe the only 2% will see combat stat that was mentioned by Frenchy. If you're deployed to the AOR, even at an office job you'll have a mortar or rocket sent your way at least once. Imminent danger pay and hostile fire pay is less than $500 a month lol

Toyman! said:

trigun7469 said:

In reply to yupididit :

...Some of the students in engineering go to community college first complete most of their degree then transfer...

This is what my youngest is doing. He's looking at majoring in aerospace engineering. Right now, he's living at home and going to a local school to knock out all of the basic courses for pennies compared to the university where he will eventually get his degree. He has a part-time job working for me and so far he is paying most of his own school costs with a little help from me. He will end up graduating with no school debt. 

 

Depending on how much course work you can knock out at the CC level, you might even be able to get into a co-op/summer intern program and get your future employer to pick up a significant portion of the remaining cost

In reply to Beer Baron :

Really only about 2% of those in the military actually serve in combat.

     You are absolutely right.  I've lost nearly all of my midrange hearing  and a fair bit of the rest.   Thanks to 1023 hrs of two unmuffled Wright radials. No we didn't have ear plugs in those days.  
 That  plus the things I saw are impossible to forget and for decades the nightmares woke me up.  
 Luckily for me I came back after every combat flight to a safe dry comfortable bed with clean clothes and flight gear hanging on the end of my bed.  The food was outstanding.  And the Ports we visited are beautiful memories. 
 

In reply to yupididit :

There is a reason sailors working on the flight deck get  hazardous duty pay.  Some get chopped up by propeller's .   Others get sucked into Jet intakes. While a decent share  get blown overboard in to the sea 70 feet below.  ( nope few survive) 
      Then the hazards of dropped munitions or flight deck fire have to be considered.  
      That's just during training.  Not even turning the turn and burn period of combat.  
      I'll admit that a carrier is much safer and nicer place to be than  slogging through the Jungle ( or in your case surviving in the desert.). 
     I'll give my full respect for the hazards  even non combat military endure in hostile zones.  I'll accept anything you report on that subject.  
      I've never spent months on a submarine and endured that life either.  Sounds pretty horrible to me.    Or Had to deal with Drug smugglers like the Coast Guard.  

As far as I'm concerned every person that wears a uniform and protects our freedoms earns respect and admiration.  
  But I also did 3 years as an instructor.  9-5 5 days a week  and there was a whole group of us. About the size of a typical squadron who never went overseas, or in combat.  
  Most of a carriers 5000 people never go on the flight deck during operations.  And only a tiny handful actually fly the planes.  
 Same with the carrier combat group.  There are likely another 5000 support people in Destroyer escorts, Cruisers, submarines supply ships and service ships.   Then for every combat carrier group  there are at least 10,000 who never go to sea and only serve that group.  
  If you doubt those numbers please go walk around the pentagon.  And the whole East coast around Washington DC 
  I don't know the Army and I defer to you in that regard.  But I've heard the2% number too many times from too many sources to doubt it.  
 

Karacticus said:

Toyman! said:

trigun7469 said:

In reply to yupididit :

...Some of the students in engineering go to community college first complete most of their degree then transfer...

This is what my youngest is doing. He's looking at majoring in aerospace engineering. Right now, he's living at home and going to a local school to knock out all of the basic courses for pennies compared to the university where he will eventually get his degree. He has a part-time job working for me and so far he is paying most of his own school costs with a little help from me. He will end up graduating with no school debt. 

 

Depending on how much course work you can knock out at the CC level, you might even be able to get into a co-op/summer intern program and get your future employer to pick up a significant portion of the remaining cost

Yep, and we happen to have Boeing here in town. 

Toyman! said:

trigun7469 said:

In reply to yupididit :

...Some of the students in engineering go to community college first complete most of their degree then transfer...

This is what my youngest is doing. He's looking at majoring in aerospace engineering. Right now, he's living at home and going to a local school to knock out all of the basic courses for pennies compared to the university where he will eventually get his degree. He has a part-time job working for me and so far he is paying most of his own school costs with a little help from me. He will end up graduating with no school debt. 

 

Want to bet when he's against student loan forgiveness, he's somehow the shiny happy person?

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Not taking that bet.

People think I'm an AH and I never went to college. I'm not sure why I should pay for others to go. 

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I know I'm against it. I did every trick in the book to keep my college costs low. CLEP exams, AP classes, CC, Employer paid. Took me to 32 to get my degree vs 22 and I had a long stretch of long days but graduated with no debt. 

I'm totally against it other than some of these predatory universities out there. Why should I pay for someone else's college? 

Steve_Jones said:

Toyman! said:

trigun7469 said:

In reply to yupididit :

...Some of the students in engineering go to community college first complete most of their degree then transfer...

This is what my youngest is doing. He's looking at majoring in aerospace engineering. Right now, he's living at home and going to a local school to knock out all of the basic courses for pennies compared to the university where he will eventually get his degree. He has a part-time job working for me and so far he is paying most of his own school costs with a little help from me. He will end up graduating with no school debt. 

 

Want to bet when he's against student loan forgiveness, he's somehow the shiny happy person?

It depends.

Is he against a forgiving the loans of a Doctor who makes $200,000 a year and will eventually pay them off because the Government is going to pay off everybody's student loans? So that Doctor won't be buying his Ferrari until he is over 40 and he might have to live in a smaller house till his loan is paid off if those loans aren't forgiven?

Or is he against forgiving the loans of a 65 year old man who is getting his Social Security Check garnished on a student loan for a worthless degree he was sold on by the college when he was in his 30s, and the guy can't afford to pay his electric bill now. He will never pay them off in full because they keep adding interest and they can only garnish a certain percentage of his small income. And this guy will probably die soon anyway.

What about forgiving just the interest on a loan taken out by a guy in his 50s who is still making $35,000 a year and is stuck with a worthless degree. What if the guy sees no way out of his miserable life since the rent on his crappy apartment just went up to $1,400 a month and he decides to suck up a Smith and Wesson? Can we just let him pay the principal without adding interest like one Republican Senator recently suggested. He probably has no retirement savings and will not have much of a life left to look forward to. If he had spent the money on an expensive car instead of a worthless degree he could have just gone bankrupt and then been on his merry way.

There is no one size fits all solution to the student loan problem.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

It depends.

Is he against a forgiving the loans of a Doctor who makes $200,000 a year and will eventually pay them off because the Government is going to pay off everybody's student loans? So that Doctor won't be buying his Ferrari until he is over 40 and he might have to live in a smaller house till his loan is paid off if those loans aren't forgiven?

I'm not for or against student loan forgiveness.  Its a complex issue.

That said, the majority of medical loans from my understanding are private loans, not federal loans, so any govt. level forgiveness program would not apply to them anyway.