TH350 guys! I know you're out there, please help!

So, after replacing the trans pan gasket in the mistaken belief that it was the source of the red puddle under the Nova, I find the puddle still grows.  Upon closer inspection, the red fluid appears at the shifter shaft, runs down the case to the gasket, and drips from the front of the pan.  Ordered a kit with a new Timken seal and an extractor tool and a setting tool.  The new seal is a band of steel with a good bit of the rubber visible from either side.   The old seal seems to resist my efforts to drive the removal tool into it, largely because it seems to be mostly metal that is exposed, and just a tiny bit of rubber visible.

How do I remove this seal?

On the premise that a picture is worth a thousand words, I'll stop typing and post up this lovely image.

Paging #Curtis to the white courtesy phone.

drill a 1/16" hole in the steel case of the seal. Thread in a sheet metal screw. Use vice grips to pull on the seal or a small pry bar to wedge it out

Like this but tiny

The remover I'm familiar with is a tapered hollow screw with a pushing bolt in the closed end. That fits over the shifter shaft, then screws into the metal portion of the seal.  Turn bolt, seal is removed.  

Picture of tool?

Sometimes I have had to tap the remover tool in pretty forcefully with a respectful hammer tap. This allows it to get a bite into the old seal. 

That said, on problematic leakers, I've been known to drive the old seal in further then install the new seal in place, effectively making the shift shaft have two stacked seals. Most older GM transmissions are bored deep enough to allow a person to do that  

Yes, that is the tool.  You'll notice that the new seal pictured has more rubber showing than does mine.  It is my belief that the tool is too thick to get into that thin annular groove.  Nevertheless, I will try again, being a tad more forceful.  Failing that, I was thinking drilling a couple holes in it, then threading in some screws would give me the means to pull it out. 

I also considered stacking the new seal on top, but I think I'd have to drive the old seal in a good bit further for that to work.  Seems like a step in the wrong direction.  Also, the outer part of the shaft is the most likely to be buggered up in a way that would leak past a new seal.  Counting this method a last resort at this point.

Thanks for replies!

Used to be a dorman version of that tool on the shelf at every CSK I ever worked at.

And I'm sure only 4 employees knew what it was for.

iansane said:

Used to be a dorman version of that tool on the shelf at every CSK I ever worked at.

 

And I'm sure only 4 employees knew what it was for.

Sounds as if a leak such as I am experiencing was not a rare occurrence.

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

Pretty common leak when parked. 

Convertor drains back to the pan, causing the fluid level to rise above the shift shaft and leak past the seal.

Had a 727 years ago that hemorrhaged when parked. Building manager didn't like me very much because of it.

We normally would pull the rooster comb, detent spring/pawl, and parking rod out of the case and pull the roll pin to remove the shift shaft on rebuilds. The machining nor castings back then was exactly the greatest....

Duke said:

Paging #Curtis to the white courtesy phone.

 

I know the early ones (pre-lockup) you just pulled the pan, dropped the linkage bellcrank out, and you could push it out from inside.  I think it's an 11/16" nut on the inside of the detent which lets you pull the shifter shaft out and get access to it.  Once that detent plate and shaft is out of the way, you have all kinds of access from inside or out.

I know that's not the thing you want to hear after just doing the gasket, but you can re-use it.  You can get it out with a little slide hammer with a seal puller, but I always end up scoring the hole and causing a new leak.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I know that's not the thing you want to hear after just doing the gasket, but you can re-use it.  You can get it out with a little slide hammer with a seal puller, but I always end up scoring the hole and causing a new leak.

You sure know how to hurt a guy.  I won't be re-using that gasket.  It's got RTV on both sides since I figured that it was the source of my leak and this would ensure I never had to go in there ever again.  I am developing a deep hatred of this car.  It seems every system I install, I've got to pull it back out to make room for something else, or fix something that isn't right.  I'd much rather be working on the RX-7 or my son's E39.  Both are infinitely better to work on than this antique domestic junk.

Going on the assumption that I was being too gentle, I gradually increased the hammering force to no avail.  The business end of the tool is now substantially collapsed and presumably worthless.  The seal looks exactly as it did before, utterly unscathed.

So now I'm draining the fluid for the second time, buying yet another pan gasket, a few more gallons of ATF, and taking my inaugural dive into the guts of an automagic transmission.  Where's the damn whiskey?  I'm done for today. 

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

You'll get used to it and be really fast this time around.

I've been inside the same 4L80E three times in two months for valve body work, thanks to poor quality, offshore parts.

Buy your internal transmission parts at the GM store if you can.

In reply to ShawnG :

I'm banging my head on so many aspects of this restoration right now, I'm driven to drink.  Most of the readily available parts are poorly-made junk. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

In the teardown video I watched, he also removes a C-clip before he removes the 11/16" nut and removes the entire parking rod mechanism attached to the detent plate.  If my goal is simply to remove the shifter shaft and have room to drive out this seal, what is the extent of disassembly required?  If you would be so kind...

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

As far as I remember, the c-clip holds the detent rod/parking pawl to the bellcrank.  If you get that 11/16" nut off, you should be able to let the bellcrank and detent rod /parking pawl just hang there and pull the shift shaft out.

Now I have to watch a video to be sure.  Last one I did was in about 1999.

ShawnG said:

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

Pretty common leak when parked. 

Convertor drains back to the pan, causing the fluid level to rise above the shift shaft and leak past the seal.

Had a 727 years ago that hemorrhaged when parked. Building manager didn't like me very much because of it.

I used to work across the street from a trans shop full of Old Guys (two brothers and their dad) and their dad still had a lot of Studebaker parts stashed from when he had a dealership.  Said he had stuff like six supercharged Avanti exhaust systems still wrapped in paper.  I told him once that he'd better sell it off while it was still valuable to someone.

Anyway, if you had an old Hydra-Matic (four forward gears and no torque converter, just a fluid coupling) Lenny was the guy you took it to if you wanted it to stop leaking when parked.  There was an O ring arrangement to keep the fluid coupling from bleeding down.

I wonder if Lenny's still alive, he was in his 90s the last I saw him ten or so years ago.  He was friends with Jim Battenhouse, whose Corvair shop was just up the street.  It's a pizza parlor or something now  Jim was always driving around in an immaculate looking Chevy LUV, in the 20teens!

More weird "it's a small world after all" - my employer is the son in law of the older brother.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Those old 4-speed Hydra-matic transmissions are tanks. Hurst made a manual shift conversion for them for drag racing.

Supposedly the salesmen used to stuff them into reverse while cruising along at about 30mph to show the buyer how tough they were.

Hydra-matic and Turbo Hydramatic transmissions are two completely unrelated designs. Thanks GM!

In reply to ShawnG :

The "turbo" is from the turbine in the torque converter.  That allowed them some torque multiplication to the input shaft, so they could eliminate a gear or two, and most importantly make the transmissions more cheaply.  It's not just a futuristic sounding name!

Somewhere I saw a dyno sheet where they put the load cell on the output of a torque converter.  A lowly Ford 302 van engine was putting 700ft-lb to the input shaft near its stall speed.  Thanks, torque converter, for converting "slippage" into more torque!

And now the paradigm is to lock the converter ASAP and even lowly 1.3l three cylinder engines have nine forward gears to play with in the transmission.  Downside of using fluid as a torque multiplier is that it makes heat, that comes from the fuel, minimizing fuel use is more important than saving money in the trans.

I work with people who are amazed by carburetors so I have been going into Old Fart Mode at work a lot lately...

Anyway I've always removed the shift shaft and carefully popped the seal out with a screwdriver.  They make screwdriver looking tools now that have no sharp edges, specifically for prying seals and O rings without scratching a bore.  The seal usually fails around here because the shaft is all rusty, so you have to remove the shaft anyway to polish it with emery cloth. Otherwise you are graunching the new seal over rust and it will damage the new seal.

Update:

Well, this is going to sound pretty stupid, but I guess it what can happen when you get old and don't see very well, and you're working in a dark garage, stuffed under a car that really ought to be a few inches higher, at least.  Having one last go at it, in preparation of pulling the pan and taking out the shaft, I notice that the seal removal tool isn't actually making it to the seal.  The ID of said tool is too small to slip over the shift shaft where it transitions to full diameter just outboard of the seal.  So all my earlier tapping, torquing and cursing was truly for naught.  So I drill the tool out a bit and hey, it slips on a little further.  Still can't get it to bite into the seal though, so it's on to Plan B.  It would be nice if the people that sold this crap actually checked to see if it would fit the transmissions they claim to fit. 

Dropped the exhaust, removed the crossmember since it covers two of the pan bolts, and removed the pan bolts.   I'll save the rest of the fun for tomorrow.

Planning on using Curtis's sage advice above, aided by the visual example provided here:

You got this.

Well, that wasn't so bad.  It makes me feel a little better knowing that even if I got the old seal out and a new seal in, it was prolly gonna leak anyway.  Bit of rust around where the seal rides.  Ordering a Sonnax shaft from Summit today.

Note:  The "c-clip" isn't exactly what I expected.  It's a big chunk of spring steel that serves as a spacer.

Concern:  The thingamajig linkage (parking pawl?) that runs from the top of the cock's comb forward popped out of wherever it lives.  How much of a pain is that going to be to put back?

New shaft arriving today or tomorrow.  That gives me time to clean up the gasket surface on the pan.  Anybody know of a solvent that removes blue RTV?  I was able to get the gasket surface on the trans pretty clean because it's nice and flat, but the pan has those little stiffening ridges between the bolt holes and the old gasket peels off in layers.  It's tedious. 

What's the consensus on sealing these?  Just a gasket?  Gasket and sealer?  I have a new Fel-Pro TOS 18633.

A brass or soft steel wire wheel on an angle grinder (preferably a small air grinder) will do the trick on RTV.  So will a maroon scotch brite disc on the same tool. Take a towel and stuff it up around the valve body and shove some wood blocks to hold it in.  Otherwise you'll have RTV powder all over the valve body.

Razor scraper works.  Soaking in acetone for 24 hours will soften it, but that's nearly impossible to do in your situation.