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Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/4/23 8:25 a.m.

Simplify, then add lightness. - Colin Chapman

Brevity is the soul of wit. - William Shakespeare

We started watching Devs a couple nights ago, got two episodes in, and it really started to piss me off. Took me a moment to figure out why. Although there are some issues more specific to it, the biggest issue is one that has become endemic to streaming shows: They're bloated and too long for their own good.

Creating a shorter story is harder than creating a long one. Making a story as short and tight as possible usually makes it stronger. Rather than hampering an artist's vision, it usually forces them to clarify it. To take a long hard look at what they want to express and find the actual heart of that. It forces them to be careful and purposeful.

This doesn't mean that a story is necessarily as short as it can be, that stories can't take their time and burn slowly. I love most of Denis Villeneuve's films. The Lord of the Rings trilogy is long. The extended versions are not better. The Harry Potter books peaked in quality with books 3 and/or 4 when Rowling was given the space to explore, but her editors still did their jobs and made her trim out what was superfluous.

There are too many streaming shows that could be good, but just run for too long. The last season of Stranger Things had a solid story hidden within it, but failed to actually tell it properly because of bloat. The live action Cowboy Bebop had hour-long episodes where the original cartoon's were an economical 24 minutes each.

There are good shows out there, but they're hidden. If you have not yet watched Arcane, do so. It is economical and purposeful. Everything it shows is intentional. After the first 3 minutes, I knew that I wanted to watch this series. As opposed to Devs, where after two hours, I still have no idea if it's going to get interesting.

Ultimately, I think this is where the show loses me. It might have been a good show. There may be something worth watching hidden in the overly-long runtime. But it's unnecessary length weakens what strong points are there. I don't need 10 minute scenes of characters explaining details to me that were clearly communicated visually and through acting in a few shots already. This just lets me know that the show creators aren't confident in their abilities and/or don't respect my intelligence.

Sadly, I don't expect this to change. The goal of streaming platforms is to make money, not art. They don't want me to watch a tight 30 minutes, then go off and digest. They want me to sit down and keep their service running for hours on end. They have to have characters explain things out loud simply, and slowly instead of using efficient visual language, because they expect the audience is looking down at their phones instead of actually watching their screens.

Well, maybe if you gave me something worth looking at, I would. If my phone or my dishes are more interesting than your show, that's on you.

And Arcane really is one of the best TV shows I've ever watched. It's up there with The Wire, Breaking Bad, and Cowboy Bebop as masterpieces of storytelling. If you haven't watched it yet, do. If you have, watch it again.

Flynlow (FS)
Flynlow (FS) Dork
3/4/23 9:46 a.m.

Quality rant.  This has been my problem with most new series, most notably game of thrones (but also black sails, shannara, etc).  It was two characters having an ominous discussion in a room for 40min, 3-5 min of action leading into a cliffhanger ending for the next episode.  Rinse, repeat.  I heard it got better as it went on, but i never made it past season 1.   

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/4/23 10:16 a.m.

The problem with streaming is that you don't need to be an idiot with Hollywood connections anymore, just an idiot with a social media following, to get a show.

Entertainment quality fell off a cliff years ago. I'd say it peaked around the dotcom boom realistically. There have been a few gems since then, but even franchises and shows that have been around since before that really nosedived in quality, entertainment value, and even as ability to be background noise (i.e. The Simpson's).

I find myself sailing the seven seas a lot more often these days digging up old gems that never got syndication deals, dvd releases, or that the actors or production companies would prefer we all forgot about. Mostly because by the time I've wasted 3 hours searching through all the streaming services for something worth watching, I no longer want to watch anything at all nor do I have the time for it. 

And yet I keep my subs, because there's something the kids want to watch, or a season of a boring murder porn show the wife wants to watch even though they're all exactly the same (the alphabet soup cop shows specifically). All because while I'm fine with dropping them all until there's something I actually want to watch, but I'm not allowed to do that because of the others in the household. 

The only benefit they have over cable is the lack of ads, so at least I'm bored without being advertised at every 3.5 minutes. 

I've been racking my brain for a while trying to come up with shows and movies I've actually enjoyed and thought were worth the cost of admission since the turn of the century, and it's a lot harder than it should be.

Snowfall, sons of anarchy, God Bless America, breaking bad, the wire, first doctor strange movie as a standalone berkeley the MCU. Umm. The movies/toys that made us, Kill the Irishman. I'm a sucker for the first 5 pirates of the Caribbean the 6 one sucked. First 4 seasons of Orange is the New Black were great, 5-7 sucked enormous E36 M3. Certain episodes of the grand tour were alright, Clarkson farm, Upload which is really good sci-fi despite being a romcom. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
3/4/23 10:36 a.m.

TV has never recovered from the writer's strike of 2007. I never really watch since then. I haven't really watched since then either.

I pick and choose what I DO watch very frugally. I don't have 482 hours to devote to Netflix. I go E36 M3 to do.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/4/23 10:39 a.m.

I don't even need great TV. Not every show needs to be The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Cowboy Bebop, Avatar, etc... I just need stuff that respects my intelligence and my time.

We recently watched 'Shadow and Bone' and thoroughly enjoyed it. I would not recommend it widely the way I would Arcane or The Expanse.

It's very much a genre piece for fans of that style and genre. It is solidly done though. They clearly cared and put in as much effort as they could with the resource limitations they had. It is for a specific target audience, but it has respect for that audience and their intelligence.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/4/23 10:48 a.m.
RevRico said:

Entertainment quality fell off a cliff years ago. I'd say it peaked around the dotcom boom realistically.

I strongly disagree with this. I think Cinema has declined in that time, but serialized TV got better, and the greatest serialized storytelling has occurred since the 2000's.

Think of the best TV shows you've watched: The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Arrested Development, The Office, Avatar, The Expanse, Game of Thrones, Arcane. All came well after the Dotcom bust. Heck, Cowboy Bebop came out in '98, which was after the Dotcom bust.

There were great shows before then, but they were largely episodic and worried about appealing to everyone. Since then, we see more serialized stories that are able to explore ideas and themes more deeply and are fine providing more value to a narrower audience.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/4/23 10:49 a.m.

My problem with most streaming shows is that they start with a brilliant premise, set up a whopping cliffhanger at the end of season 1, then they're like "crap, they want more.  Let's make up some E36 M3."  Season 2 ends up being a complete waste of time

Umbrella Academy
Russian Doll
Another Life
Dead to Me
The Orville

Bring back the shows where season 1 sucked and they kept getting better.

Simpsons
TNG
Breaking Bad (until the last season)

AMiataCalledSteve
AMiataCalledSteve Reader
3/4/23 5:44 p.m.

Man, I feel this in my soul. The last show I was able to blast my way through was Invincible. But I find myself drawn to movies most the time. They tell a complete story in 2-3 hours, whereas if I'm going to watch even one season of a new flagship streaming show I'll have to devote at least 8-12 hours of my time to see the story through, at a minimum. If I'm sacrificing that much of my life to a story, it better be pretty unbelievably great. It gets hard to psych myself to watch the next season of shows I've already started because there's just so much commitment involved - I've been putting off watching season 3 of The Boys for about 6 months because I can't motivate myself to start caring about that story for so long again, even though I really enjoyed seasons 1 & 2. It's like staring up at a mountain and knowing that you'll enjoy the view at the top but dangit it's just gonna take so long to hike up there...

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/4/23 10:10 p.m.

In reply to AMiataCalledSteve :

Watch Arcane. It is an exception to that very legit critique. Episodes are a tight ~40 minutes each, and it very neatly divided the story into three, three-episode acts. It's like watching a trilogy of 2-hour movies. Episode 3 is less of a cliffhanger than Fellowship of the Ring. Just... watch the opening scene.

We gave up on The Boys a couple episodes into Season 3. We didn't care, and it felt like it was just trying to up the shock factor, not do anything actually new.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
3/4/23 10:50 p.m.

Regarding Lord of the Rings, you missed the obvious one:  The Hobbit.  They took a relatively short story, pretty much perfect for a movie and stretched it into a 3 movie S-show.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
3/4/23 11:00 p.m.

The gems one can find are really good. Ozark probably rates as my favorite drama ever. Breaking Bad was generally good, as was The Sopranos (except for that crap ending). 

Banshee was my favorite guilty pleasure until I think season 3 when they literally left the reservation. Hopefully, those writers got fired. It came back and concluded with a good season.

Dead To Me should have been one season and done. Season one was brilliant. Season two was kinda silly. I haven't seen the final season as we dropped Netflix.

I loved Casual on Hulu and was sorry it ended.

I mostly liked Californication but it wandered a bit and should have ended with the final episode of the next-to-last season. (I realize it isn't really a streaming series)

I was a huge fan of The Walking Dead but OMG did they start drawing the storylines out after Negan's demise. I pretty much gave up on it and haven't bothered watching it in maybe two years.

We can complain about streaming's fails, but have you tried to watch anything on network TV lately? All garbage.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/4/23 11:40 p.m.

I tend to gravitate toward the formats that combine old-school show elements with newer episodic continuation formats.  I don't like the 80s and 90s style where you always start with a problem, they work the problem, then it all gets resolved after 30 or 60 minutes.  Each episode was a boring, standalone pile of formulaic junk.  Like Knight Rider, or [insert 95% of sitcoms here]  I also don't like the more modern thing where the whole season is one 10-hour long movie broken up into 10 episodes.

I like the middle of that road, like Dr Who.  Each episode is a standalone (with some to be continued episodes) so they all have their own individual 1-hour satisfaction, but they also all tie in with the history you've learned about the Doctor.  Simultaneously an individual episode while also being part of a story continuum.

Shows like that, I can watch an individual episode, take a month off, and pick up where I left off.  Shows like Peaky Blinders (which I love) are not easy to take time away from because it's one huge continuous story and easy to lose your place.  I started watching the latest season and realized that it was so hard to get back into the swing because I wasn't remembering anything that happened when I watched it two years ago.

Gems that I've noticed that break this barrier for me:  Hateful Eight extended version, Westworld, and Firefly/Serenity.

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/5/23 12:06 a.m.

Recently I've been trying to get into DC stuff. Peacemaker was surprisingly good. Powerless is hilarious fun and needed more seasons.

 

Also if anyone hasn't seen Better Off Ted, for God sakes watch it. I think it's on a few streaming services.

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
3/5/23 12:08 a.m.

I have found myself drawn to Korean products lately. First was #alive. Then snowpiercer. Then physical :100 (seriously. Better than any American reality show). Then there's Alice in borderlands. There's also all the sw content on Disney+. And of course, the greatest animated show in history, Futurama. So good it's been cancelled 3 times and Hulu is getting ready to release 23 more episodes. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/5/23 11:47 a.m.

Love me some Futurama.

Korean cinema is getting really good.  Still a little over-dramatic for me, but really good.

I think one of the best films ever is the Mandarin version of Dangerous Liaisons.  The acting is spot on and the cinematography... wooow.  Filmed in China and South Korea with a partially-Korean production team, it really highlights the art of both countries' film philosophies.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/5/23 12:30 p.m.

I refuse to watch any series that ends a season with a cliffhanger.  There is enough uncertainty in life.  I want the bad guy dead, and the hero to ride off into the sunset.

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/5/23 1:09 p.m.
Mndsm said:

I have found myself drawn to Korean products lately. First was #alive. Then snowpiercer. Then physical :100 (seriously. Better than any American reality show). Then there's Alice in borderlands. There's also all the sw content on Disney+. And of course, the greatest animated show in history, Futurama. So good it's been cancelled 3 times and Hulu is getting ready to release 23 more episodes. 

I'm still on the fence about this. The movies were meh, comedy Central years are unwatchable for me. I'm still going to watch but I don't have high hopes.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/5/23 1:11 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Cliffhanger coach from The Italian Job ends its days in Fife | The Scotsman

The Thing: Was Childs Human In The Movie's Ending?

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/5/23 1:14 p.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Top one was a stupid ending.  Don't recognize the other two.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/5/23 1:19 p.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Top one was a stupid ending.  Don't recognize the other two.

The Thing.

travellering
travellering HalfDork
3/5/23 6:42 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

What's wrong with the most literal cliffhanger in movie history?

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/5/23 7:04 p.m.

In reply to travellering :

laugh

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
3/6/23 6:49 a.m.

A cliffhanger that pokes fun at cliffhangers. "Hold on lads...I've got an idea."  Brilliant movie.

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/6/23 8:45 a.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

The truth has been spoken. 

Every streaming show I've tried to watch has been so filled with fluff that it's almost unwatchable. Without the network time constraints, there is no pressure to condense the show down to the key scenes that actually tell the story.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/6/23 8:59 a.m.
Toyman! said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

The truth has been spoken. 

Every streaming show I've tried to watch has been so filled with fluff that it's almost unwatchable. Without the network time constraints, there is no pressure to condense the show down to the key scenes that actually tell the story.

I think it's the opposite. A streaming show has no set number of episodes. Most are about 8 to 10 per season. Whereas a network drama like a CSI or whatever is going to do 24 episodes in a season, no matter what, so the writers have to fill all that time.

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