the Dirty Jobs guy just makes too much sense sometimes

Something that he didn't really touch on is there are plenty of dirty jobs out there that aren't necessarily meant to be careers - unskilled manual labor kinds of things that people do when they're young and able bodied and need to make some money, then they eventually move on and learn a trade or go to college and start their careers. After they move on, other young people will take their place at those dirty jobs until they move on as well, and so on.

I had a few of theses jobs myself as a young guy - farm labor, cleaning toilets, shoveling snow and so on. Kids these days shouldn't be afraid of doing these sorts of things when they're starting out; it may be hard and dirty work, but it still makes money and it can help teach a person a lot of things about what it takes to succeed in life - how to be responsible, how to follow supervision, how to be able to work as a team, how to develop a work ethic, all those things that are important once they get out in the world.

When Adam Carrola had his rant going on about this sort of thing he said something along lines of:

These people heard: "You don't want to work at McDonalds do you?"

When what was said was: You don't want to work at McDonalds for the rest of your life do you?"

The crap jobs are just a stepping stone to the real jobs.

We've all had the crap jobs at one time or another.

In reply to stuart in mn:

My problem is I never moved on. I have been promoted, however I'm still out here doing it because I cannot find anyone to replace me out in the field. I don't know what I'll do if this doesn't play out the way I hope because my body is shot and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be physically able to do it. And having spent nearly my entire working life doing this the only option would be to try and find an entry level position doing something else. Can't really take years off to go to school because wife/kid.

Trans_Maro wrote: The crap jobs are just a stepping stone to the real jobs. We've all had the crap jobs at one time or another.

I totally agree with you - these are entry level jobs that get you started in the work force.

I learned a lot about having a work ethic by throwing newspapers when I was 12-13 years old.

stuart in mn wrote: Something that he didn't really touch on is there are plenty of dirty jobs out there that aren't necessarily meant to be careers - unskilled manual labor kinds of things that people do when they're young and able bodied and need to make some money, then they eventually move on and learn a trade or go to college and start their careers. After they move on, other young people will take their place at those dirty jobs until they move on as well, and so on. I had a few of theses jobs myself as a young guy - farm labor, cleaning toilets, shoveling snow and so on. Kids these days shouldn't be afraid of doing these sorts of things when they're starting out; it may be hard and dirty work, but it still makes money and it can help teach a person a lot of things about what it takes to succeed in life - how to be responsible, how to follow supervision, how to be able to work as a team, how to develop a work ethic, all those things that are important once they get out in the world.

Agreed.

I did concrete for 2 weeks in the OK summer before my last semester...........it definitely motivated to get it done and find a job after graduation.

white_fly wrote: It'd be cool to know about this random guy fixing motorcycles with a burning desire to train someone, but how do you even find him?

Umm... Dude, he's on the internet!

Liberty Vintage Cycle. 2212 Sepviva St, Philadelphia, PA 19125 (267) 514-2857

Here's his website:

Liberty Vintage Cycle

Here's his interview on the Discovery Channel:

Philly Throttle

Oh look! He's on Facebook too!

Liberty Vintage Facebook

Here's his crew- some of those poor young men who couldn't find the random rebel loner who was hiding in a garage somewhere:

Bios of Cramer's crew

One thing any young person should be good at these days is stalking people online. Google is your friend.

In reply to SVreX:

Once again, you are absolutely correct. A few notes: That website hurts my eyes. How does this guy have a full crew and not know who's going to be the next him? I am into vintage bikes and had no idea he exists. Stalking online is something Cramer didn't need to know to get into his business.

I should also note that my first job was sweeping the floors at Speedsource after stalking them on the internet. Right now there are a couple of shops in my area that I could easily point out as great places to get started just from my random web surfing so it is possible and I am not trying to say it isn't.

Trans_Maro wrote: We've all had the crap jobs at one time or another.

Not sure I've ever had a crap job. I worked for my dad for a while. I didn't like the work, but he did, he's good at it, and makes good money. I might have seen it as crap (helped pay for college, so i don't think it was crap) but it wasn't a crap job. I also worked MET team at Home Depot. Would I rather have been home at 6AM? Yes. Would I rather work there then not have been able to pay rent/bills? Dang right. Was it terrible, horrific work for measly pay? No. It wasn't fun, but the co-workers were (mostly) good people, the pay was ok, and it allowed me to not be homeless while in my masters program. It wasn't a crap job in my mind.

In reply to Rufledt:

Not criticising whatever job you had, just making a statement that the early jobs will lead to something better.

white_fly wrote: Stalking online is something Cramer didn't need to know to get into his business.

No, he probably did something that is strange and uncomfortable to most people these days.

It's called "human interaction"

There's a lot to be said for having a firm handshake and looking someone in the eye when you speak to them.

A lot of people these days can't look at someone when they speak to them thanks to the faceless interaction from their damn phone.

I'm not saying the guy is a saint or revolutionary or anything. For his generation, walking in, introducing yourself and asking if they need some help around the shop would probably be the way to go.

Heck, it's how I landed my first job.

There's a used bike shop / bike wrecker close by me, he has a shop kid and I'll bet he didn't get him by going out and looking for an apprentice. Chances are the kid hung around the place, asked a lot of questions and was generally a PITA until someone handed him a broom.

If you want someone to teach you something, you need to show some interest.

It sounds like it worked for you.

Shawn

Brett_Murphy wrote: And this is why they can't fill those jobs. Most people don't want to work in the snow at 2 AM welding something. I think they look at a job like that and say, "Screw that, I'll make coffee at Starbucks." Think about this: If everybody was scrambling to be a sub-arctic pipe fitter and had the qualifications to do it, do you think they'd offer the same wages they are now when there is a labor shortage?

This basically sums up this whole topic.

At the end of the day, being an electrician pulling wire when it's -30*C outside is not fun, period, end of discussion. At the end of the day, a job eventually becomes just that, a job, whether you love it or not.

I went and got a post secondary education because I didn't want to be outside (or inside an unfinished building) when it was -30C out when I was 30+ years old. I worked as a plumbers apprentice for a year, then did residential HVAC for a year. Then for 1.5 years I did labor work in Water Distribution for a city (then the next two summers while I went to school). I basically worked labour jobs since 18 and worked berkeleying hard (had the 6 pack to prove it, even if I ate out almost everyday)! I still work outside occasionally now that I am edumacated (like today), but it's not back breaking work and I am mainly working with my fingers. It still sucked and it was only around -15C.

Point is, unless the trade involved being inside, I'd have a hard time suggesting to possible offspring of mine to get trades positions. I wouldn't tell them not to, but I'd be thinking long term about wanting to move into a managing type of position rather than a labour type of position by the time I was 40 if that was the case. As we live longer, you have to think about working longer and keeping yourself in good shape. It's a lot easier on your body to work in an office (if you keep yourself in good health) then it is to bust ass outside for 30+ years.

SVreX has pointed out the exact reasons why many people don't want to do what are skilled LABOUR positions. At the end of the day, while you need to be skilled, I would argue that more people can do labour jobs than can do jobs involving critical thinking. So there is a larger % pool of the population that can naturally do certain jobs, which no matter how crappy the work, the wages will always be deflated because they can kick your ass to the curb and higher Johnny down the street for less money and he'll work harder to wear out his body sooner so he can be crippled at 55 when he retires (if he is so lucky).

PHeller wrote: I would think that the most in demand of trade jobs would have awesome benefits including loads of vacation and excellent medical. You'd think anyone worth hiring would be worth keeping.

Nope. See my other post. American companies (and their employees) have gone down the road of squeezing every last penny out of everything, the fight for the almighty dollar, the race to the bottom. And they've won this race by destroying the middle class.

I await SVreX jumping on me and calling me lazy and stuff. I remember a similiar argument from a while ago. That's ok, I can take it as I am quite pleased with how my life has gone and the effort I have put in and what I've gotten out of it. Excuse me while I go play with my racecar

SVreX wrote: Hard work in the manual trades OFTEN means long hours, and it is unlikely you will ever have a flex schedule. You work when there is work. You work when the crew works. You work round the clock when there is something dirty to do. You work when the weather allows.

Beer Baron wrote: In reply to SVreX: You misunderstand me. I am not saying these people do not want to ever put in those crap hours. I am saying they do not want to *always* put in those crap hours. It is not about expecting to always get to set the magical perfect schedule for yourself. It is about occasionally having the opportunity to say, "I'm taking a four day weekend to go race my car."

I can see your point. But you aren't getting paid as you probably don't have vacation days (in the US, full time employees get 2 weeks minimum here in Canuckland). Can you afford to take that 4 day weekend? Most people can't.

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of an old quote from a 2001 video I have (slightly paraphrased):

"Whenever I don't want to train, I just go sit in traffic... that reminds me not to get off my bike and get a real job..."
-Eric Carter - SoCal based professional mtn bike racer (now retired)

In reply to HiTempguy:

I don't think you are lazy. Never have. I am sorry if something I said came across that way.

You have obviously made choices that work for you. I think that is great. So have I. I like working hard physically.

I don't think either of us is who Mike Rowe is addressing. He is (correctly) identifying that there is a different cultural mindset for many who are NOT working that prevents them from taking good jobs which require hard physical work.

I don't have any regrets at all about a lifetime of physical labor. It has left me in very good shape (OK, with a few aches and pains). My only regret is that I didn't learn early how to parlay my willingness to do hard physical labor into some of the more financially lucrative positions (exactly like Mr. Rowe is describing).

I could have easily made twice what I have over my career if there had been a Mike Rowe around when I was 25 (and I listened).

It's not for everyone. I have no disrespect for people who have made other choices. But the man is right, and I'd just like to encourage younger people to consider what he is saying.

HiTempguy wrote: I would argue that more people can do labour jobs than can do jobs involving critical thinking.

Many of the labor jobs that people look down actually require as much or more critical thinking as so called "information" jobs. I don't need to harp on that point, though. Everybody here has already read Shop Class as Soulcraft, and Crawford says it more eloquently than I can.

HiTempguy wrote: Nope. See my other post. American companies (and their employees) have gone down the road of squeezing every last penny out of everything, the fight for the almighty dollar, the race to the bottom. And they've won this race by destroying the middle class.

This is true. Even without the crazy exaggeration of internet forums, there are some nasty inequities
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/fact-sheets/inequality-facts/
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/fact-sheets/wages/

JoeyM wrote: Many of the labor jobs that people look down actually require as much or more critical thinking as so called "information" jobs. I don't need to harp on that point, though. Everybody here has already read Shop Class as Soulcraft, and Crawford says it more eloquently than I can.

I disagree quite strongly. Your point is only valid IF you are looking for high quality work. High quality work has been traded away for "E36 M3tiest work we can get away with while charging absurd amounts". Try and get a contractor to give you a plumbing quote for a house. You'll get three different quotes, but the likelihood of the work being unacceptable (if not flat out wrong) doesn't change no matter what price you pay, well, until you get into specialty trades that you pay over $60/h to. Ya ya, charge what the market will bare yada yada bullE36 M3 bullE36 M3. Its never changed, even when the recession hit. Finding tradesmen that do good work for GOOD wages (not insane wages) is impossible.

HiTempguy wrote: Nope. See my other post. American companies (and their employees) have gone down the road of squeezing every last penny out of everything, the fight for the almighty dollar, the race to the bottom. And they've won this race by destroying the middle class.

This is true. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/oct/10/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-ceo-worker-pay-ratio-has-obscu/

I think so, because your (the US) still crazy even if not at the rate suggested. And to deny the destruction of the middle class? I've been going to the US since I was a kid. We're not talking poverty, we're talking the ability for a regular person to earn a wage beyond making ends meet. And I've saw it change over the past decade down there. The best part is, fighting for the big corporation instead of the middle class people only hurts everyone.

But I digress. Being a carpenter does not require the critical thinking skills that engineering a $16 billion plant does. Nor does doing concrete. Those jobs can at the end of the day be filled (poorly, dont mistake what I am saying here) by anyone who has put their 4 years in to be a journeyman.

You can argue with me that the same could be said for being an engineer, but up here we have requirements for calling yourself an engineer legally. I've done a lot of the schooling myself, and I'm sorry if you think they are on the same level or deserve the same pay as a labour position or the work is as conducive to a healthy life.

SVreX, I enjoy manual labour toom Get back to me when you are over 70 and then we'll see what you think!

Edit- And I am not saying SOME labour positions do NOT deserve to be paid the same. I work with a lot of journeyman that earn more than a typical engineer!

In reply to HiTempguy:

My, my...

Who pissed in your Wheaties?

HiTempguy wrote:

JoeyM wrote: Many of the labor jobs that people look down actually require as much or more critical thinking as so called "information" jobs. I don't need to harp on that point, though. Everybody here has already read Shop Class as Soulcraft, and Crawford says it more eloquently than I can.

I disagree quite strongly. Your point is only valid IF you are looking for high quality work. High quality work has been traded away for "E36 M3tiest work we can get away with while charging absurd amounts". Try and get a contractor to give you a plumbing quote for a house. You'll get three different quotes, but the likelihood of the work being unacceptable (if not flat out wrong) doesn't change no matter what price you pay, well, until you get into specialty trades that you pay over $60/h to. Ya ya, charge what the market will bare yada yada bullE36 M3 bullE36 M3. Its never changed, even when the recession hit. Finding tradesmen that do good work for GOOD wages (not insane wages) is impossible.

there is a thread here I concur with from you, but I think there is a larger conclusion being missed here.

Mike Rowe is pointing out that these labor and trade jobs have been de-valued over so called higher education positions for a long time, and his main point is that it is so rampant that an entire generation is hamstringing themselves on the idea that they are 'above' certain professions.

but here's the other larger conclusion, imo

the other part of that de-valuing is on the other side, the service side, of that given industry. Its one thing to expect the job to be beneath you, but then to expect so called 'quality work' out of the same profession you are denigrating?

who are you(is anyone) to say what is good work for good wages until they are agreeing to a price they are paying? that seems like hubris to me, and another symptom of the problem Mike is pointing out. Maybe that IS what good plumbing work is supposed to cost. Otherwise, do it yourself and prove them wrong if you think its a good use of your time.

Even if the 'race to the bottom' claim is true, blame is not solely bourn by evil corporations as I see it. People de-value the products of trades and labors as a matter of course all the time. In all but the very highest level of skills, this is common from where I sit. And even then, people de-value those products to the point where they expect that quality for the day-laborer price.

It may be hard to see this across several different trades, but I realised I was doing the same thing when I looked at one specific trade:

the car detailing business.

I noticed the best of the business weren't complaining about the economy, and these were people who were doing +$1000 minimum exterior only detail jobs.

Then I re-evaluated my sensibilities across the board and looked again. GOOD tradesmen weren't having trouble finding work still. you'd think they'd be the first to be in the most pain.

I think maybe people are STILL living beyond their means and expecting the expenses of their lifestyle to be at a certain low level, even if the reality is that those lifestyle expenses are much higher...

Beer Baron wrote: In reply to SVreX: You misunderstand me. I am not saying these people do not want to ever put in those crap hours. I am saying they do not want to *always* put in those crap hours. It is not about expecting to always get to set the magical perfect schedule for yourself. It is about occasionally having the opportunity to say, "I'm taking a four day weekend to go race my car."

The problem I see a lot is that young people want to start at that point. We have a lot of good paying jobs. As a bus operator you top out at about $29/hr, Subway track workers go into the $35/hr range. Add in good health ins. and a pension and it's a really good deal. In return you are owned for the a while. I worked 1of the 13 Christmases I've been there, almost every weekend and generally a night shift. As time goes on I see better work and hours but it takes time.

We have come to expect a society that runs 24/7 so that we are never inconvenienced so there are going to have to people working all those hours. The newer people are going to be stuck working those E36 M3ty hours.

Young people we hire expect that they will come in, do a half assed job and then when they have a rough day will give them a hug and some warm cookies. I can count on one hand the number of people who come in under 30 and stay in recent years. Either they don't understand how to come in on time, or having to work 40-45 hours a week interferes in their life. As bad as the job market has been in recent years we are still having a tough time filling positions. Almost all of the young people that do stay came here from another country and they have a drive to work their asses off that most Americans don't have any more.

Its a comedy, but its kinda hitting close to hoem right now...at the end of Office Space, Ron Livingston went from a middle of the pack, rat race techie, sitting behind a monitor in a cubicle (hey, just like me), to the guy in the hardhat and orange vest, cleaning up the charred remains of his crappy office. He seemed genuinely happy to be sweaty and covered in soot, rather than be a slave to the Almighty Lord Qwerty.

I know how to frame walls, I know how to install roofing, I know how to lay tile, and I know how to maintain cars. I also know how to read sheet music, and a few other odd idiosyncrasies that Im fairly certain would pay the bills if I ever had to parlay those skills into a paycheck.

I made a decision a while ago to work with my mind, not my back, not because I cant, because I choose not to. Im starting to rethink those decisions. As more and more millenials decide to get degrees in 17th century french philosophical drama, the skilled labor gap will continue to widen. Someone has got to reinstall that heat pump that was stolen from the section 8 housing occupied by the 17th century french philosophical drama major for meth money...might as well be me.

I guess what Im saying is in the back of my mind Im continuously re-evaluating my current situation...should I continue to try to advance my skillset as a self taught data analyst (Visual basic/Excel/SQL data mining skills) to advance my career in my current industry (manufacturing support), or should I go to a trade school and lean how to install cable modems and set up routers?

To everyone who wants a chance at a skilled trades job with good pay and benefits, my employer, Pacific Gas and Electric, is hiring pre-apprentice linemen right now.

Details are here.

Like Wally said, your schedules and locations may suck for the first few years of your career, but the grid is not going to sent offshore. More than 50% of the people doing the work now will be eligible to retire in the next 5 years, so you will not spend several decades at the bottom of the totem pole.

Edit: you wont spend decades at the entry level. I need proofread more carefully.

I want to kick my guidance councilor in the nads for not telling me that pharmacists make so much coin!

You can bitch and moan, but the best thing to do is to take some young kid under your wing and mentor him. Give them career advice, listen to them without condemnation and allow them to benefit from your experiences. There are lots of kids without good role models at home or they don't value their parents advice. Instead of complaining, pay it forward. I have been blessed that I did OK by muddling through life with no plans. I did switch from retail management to pushing a broom in a factory, then worked into an office job so that I could go to night school and get a degree. But looking back, it would have been so nice to have had someone help me set goals and share experiences, both good and bad. I didn't seek it out because I didn't know that I needed it.

Type Q wrote: To everyone who wants a chance at a skilled trades job with good pay and benefits, my employer, Pacific Gas and Electric, is hiring pre-apprentice linemen right now. Details are here. Like Wally said, your schedules and locations may suck for the first few years of your career, but the grid is not going to sent offshore. More than 50% of the people doing the work now will be eligible to retire in the next 5 years, so you will spend several decades at the bottom of the totem pole.

I have a neice's boyfriend (expected fiance) who has gone this route. He is the young guy working on the big Electric Co. truck. The kid is knocking down big cash for his age. He is young enough and unconnected enough that he is signing up for any disaster travel that he can get. Sure, that work is a lot of weird hours and odd conditions but it pays well.

Rusnak_322 wrote: You can bitch and moan, but the best thing to do is to take some young kid under your wing and mentor him. Give them career advice, listen to them without condemnation and allow them to benefit from your experiences.

This can also work in the opposite way. Only advice I ever heeded from an adult was the body shop guy at the restoration shop I used to hang around at for a summer. He wisely told me:

"You like cars? Good. Just don't make working on them your career. After working on them all day, every day, you'll learn to hate them like I do."

I like them much better as a hobby. Though I still work in a car related industry, I keep my hands off of them.

JohnRW1621 wrote: I have a neice's boyfriend (expected fiance) who has gone this route. He is the young guy working on the big Electric Co. truck. The kid is knocking down big cash for his age. He is young enough and unconnected enough that he is signing up for any disaster travel that he can get. Sure, that work is a lot of weird hours and odd conditions but it pays well.

Besides the money the disaster travel is a good experience. I learned a lot during different disasters as a driver and a dispatcher that now when things go wrong I do a much better job of keeping things working and during large scale disruptions coming up with plans to manage them and be able to adapt those plans if they aren't working well.

If his company is like ours that likes to promote experienced people from with in doing that work and doing it well looks good on a resume when he wants a promotion.

ddavidv wrote: "You like cars? Good. Just don't make working on them your career. After working on them all day, every day, you'll learn to hate them like I do."

This was the exact advice I got from my father. 35 years in the auto industry and this was the best he could give me. He did always advise against the hobby as well because its a money pit. On the other hand, he prefers I fix everything.