In reply to Jensenman:
I did the the ID for a hypothermia inducing intravascular medical device.
http://www.alsius.com/
"Sure it works, but it carries an increased risk of brain damage when compared to more mainstream methods. If that's what centralized government run medicine will mean, count me out. "
You have allot of research to do if you think this sentence sums it up.
Looks like I whacked a hornet's nest. 
Of course the cooling anesthesia is extreme but the fact can't be denied that it was most certainly developed in response to poor central planning issues. Which is my gripe against socialized medicine.
Shaun, the system you work with both cools and warms the body rapidly as needed and is very high tech. Looks really ingenious. Costs a lot of money too, I bet. Keep in mind the Russian system I was referring to only cools the body and is at best difficult to control. (I mean, ice chips?) It was also developed in desperation due to a lack of resources from centralized planning. Apples and oranges.
In reply to Jensenman:
"Apples and oranges."
Well said.
Im confused. I thought the bill being floated around for healthcare reform would create a government provided health insurance alternative. Why are we discussing government run healthcare? Are they planning on taking over the hospitals? Please enlighten me.
Jensenman wrote: Apples and oranges.
And yours wasn't? I'm not sure someone who posted as ridiculous a comparison as you did has any grounds to call out someone else for an apples and oranges comparison. Even if it clearly was.
keethrax wrote:Jensenman wrote: Apples and oranges.And yours wasn't? I'm not sure someone who posted as ridiculous a comparison as you did has any grounds to call out someone else for an apples and oranges comparison. Even if it clearly was.
My reply was lazy. One of the main benefits of Induced hypothermia is specifically the mitigation of damage caused by coronary arrest. There are several human studies going on in this and other civilized non communist countries with strong democratic governments in order to gain understanding and specific therapeutic approvals. The studies are regulated by, the boogie man!!! That is by government regulatory agencies that insure hundreds of people are not being dunked in bathtubs filled with ice cubes all willy nilly. In this country that regulatory agency is the FDA. God Bless the FDA and the patriots who work there who do their best to keep Stalin away from our bedsides, and may they continue to do so.
In regards to the device I worked on being more sophisticated and expensive than a a tube of ice: I was aware of that and duh. To suggest that we will be subjected to those sorts of atrocities if the health care reform bill gets past was inane, and worse, misrepresented induced hypothermia, a technology humans will benefit from increasingly in the years to come- Stalin, Max, and Bernie be damned.
My "comparison" was an attempt to point out the fact that Jensaman's post was TOTALLY senseless.
I was BSing with someone the other day and I REALLY like this idea:
Develop a system in which all American citizens are insured with a health maintenance program. It covers a bare bones basic emergency program that covers an annual heath checkup, and any major medical coverage and maintenance. All citizens would be required to pay an annual copay based on the previous years taxes of 5% of their income. Any doctors visits for standard care would be cost controlled and paid for by the the patient. Required emergency surgeries or hospitalization would be covered, elective surgeries would not. All insurance companies would be invited to offer add-on plans that offered "no copay" options, elective surgery options and out of country options.
The "added costs" of covering EVERYONE would be partially paid for by...
The health care sin tax:
$.25 tax levied on all fast food orders.
$.10 tax on all pre packaged snack food, including potato chips, candy bars, Uncle Healthys triple fried granola clusters pretty much all "convenience snacks"
$.25 tax on all bottled drinks including milk gallon jugs, soft drinks, bottled water.*** all states will be required to institute a deposit return program where the purchaser can bring the deposit bottle back for a $.10 refund (forced recycling)
The products adding to the disease and diabetes and the people utilizing the products would assist in paying for a social security program.
[hijack]
Shaun, were you part of Alsius before Zoll?
[/hijack]
Shaun wrote: My "comparison" was an attempt to point out the fact that Jensaman's post was TOTALLY senseless.
It's JensENman. 
Ya know, I realized the extremity of what I was posting as I was doing it. I wanted to get people to think and I do believe it worked.
The rest of it: right now the for profit insurance companies will try to deny claims to boost the bottom line, this happens pretty regularly. Now if the government takes over health care and then decides who to shuffle out of the way to stay within their budget, as has been known to hapen in government run plans in other countries, which one is worse? The private insurer or the government bureacrat?
I thought so.
The real plus that our system has going for it now is that the profit motive leads us to bigger and better discoveries in the field of health care. I bet Shaun's company makes a wad on those machines, and rightfully so. But the flip side of the coin is that same profit motive is also the source of the outrageous costs associated with US health care.
So, all you Solomons out there: tell me how to 'fix' the current system without wrecking the good it generates?
Jensenman wrote: So, all you Solomons out there: tell me how to 'fix' the current system without wrecking the good it generates?
Mandate and regulate health insurance. Sheesh, have you not been paying attention?
MrJoshua wrote:Jensenman wrote: So, all you Solomons out there: tell me how to 'fix' the current system without wrecking the good it generates?Mandate and regulate health insurance. Sheesh, have you not been paying attention?
Charge the illegal aliens? dunno just a thought.
If people want gov't run everything move some where else.... once the gov't starts offering a public option (which will be cheaper than private insurance) most company's that currently offer insurance, will go with the public options. Offering less and less options to those of us who want to keep gov't out of our lives. Eventually only the wealthy would be able to afford a private company and so 99% of Americans will be on a social plan. We need to look at medicare, medicaid, social security, and all the rest of the gov't programs we let our politicians run. I mean have you ever talked to someone that uses the VA system? We need to get rid of all our politicians and look at getting out of the two party system to fix most issues we have.
Dani (Spinout's wife)
John Brown wrote: I was BSing with someone the other day and I REALLY like this idea: Develop a system in which all American citizens are insured with a health maintenance program. It covers a bare bones basic emergency program that covers an annual heath checkup, and any major medical coverage and maintenance. All citizens would be required to pay an annual copay based on the previous years taxes of 5% of their income. Any doctors visits for standard care would be cost controlled and paid for by the the patient. Required emergency surgeries or hospitalization would be covered, elective surgeries would not. All insurance companies would be invited to offer add-on plans that offered "no copay" options, elective surgery options and out of country options. The "added costs" of covering EVERYONE would be partially paid for by... The health care sin tax: $.25 tax levied on all fast food orders. $.10 tax on all pre packaged snack food, including potato chips, candy bars, Uncle Healthys triple fried granola clusters pretty much all "convenience snacks" $.25 tax on all bottled drinks including milk gallon jugs, soft drinks, bottled water.*** all states will be required to institute a deposit return program where the purchaser can bring the deposit bottle back for a $.10 refund (forced recycling) The products adding to the disease and diabetes and the people utilizing the products would assist in paying for a social security program.
You just accurately described the Australian example except you forgot to add alcohol and cigarettes into the user pays category.
Oh and that is the "Socialized" medicine example
I think we should tax all motorsports-they arent a necessity and just add all types of pollution.
MrJoshua wrote: I think we should tax all motorsports-they arent a necessity and just add all types of pollution.
Lets just tax everything for middle class and above....I mean we don't need any cars...or dogs....or even kids:)
Kids=future taxpayers
Jensenman wrote: The real plus that our system has going for it now is that the profit motive leads us to bigger and better discoveries in the field of health care. I bet Shaun's company makes a wad on those machines, and rightfully so. But the flip side of the coin is that same profit motive is also the source of the outrageous costs associated with US health care. So, all you Solomons out there: tell me how to 'fix' the current system without wrecking the good it generates?
I dont understand how government offered insurance would stifle biotech innovation in the US? Could you please elaborate on this idea?
Spinout007 wrote: If people want gov't run everything move some where else.... once the gov't starts offering a public option (which will be cheaper than private insurance) most company's that currently offer insurance, will go with the public options. Offering less and less options to those of us who want to keep gov't out of our lives. Eventually only the wealthy would be able to afford a private company and so 99% of Americans will be on a social plan. We need to look at medicare, medicaid, social security, and all the rest of the gov't programs we let our politicians run. I mean have you ever talked to someone that uses the VA system? We need to get rid of all our politicians and look at getting out of the two party system to fix most issues we have. Dani (Spinout's wife)
Why do health insurance prices spiral out of control to the point where only 1% of america can afford private health care once a public option exists?
Ive been told gap insurance policies are reasonable priced for the 65+ crowd and i would be willing to be would become very popular to supplement any government option.
i dont buy the notion that private health insurance companies are just going to keel over and die once a government option exists. If people arent satisfied with public healthcare there will be plenty of money to be made providing a private solution.
I think its a part of a massive conspiracy to make you (all previous posters) unhappy.
In reply to GlennS: Once the government gets involved in health care, they will be looking to cut the costs since the taxpayers will squeal like pigs. For a perfect example, the O said he'd pay for health care reform by cutting Medicare costs.
In many cases, but not all, government contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder or a job is done on a 'cost plus' basis.
So here's what happens: the venture capitalists and others who currently fund biotech etc with the hope of getting a piece of the profits from the next Viagra won't have that as a goal any more. It doesn't make sense for them to pour millions or billions into something over a long time period to fund research and to have the FDA spend 5-10 years getting approval for a 10% ROI. So the money for such research will have to come from, you guessed it, the government. That brings us full circle to cost cutting.
Right now we the US health care consumers are funding research which leads to biotech that's used all over the world but at an artificially reduced price. That's why you can buy stuff from overseas pharmacies cheaper than you can buy it here.
As I said, once the profit motive is removed, US (and actually worldwide) health care will suffer.
Type Q wrote: I think its a part of a massive conspiracy to make you (all previous posters) unhappy.
Its working!
aussiesmg wrote: ... you forgot to add alcohol and cigarettes into the user pays category.
Nope, they put alcohol in bottles and cans... my example would tax them. Cigarettes are already levied enough with the tax money effectively going no where.
I understand this is the socialist example, hence the jab at calling it social security... but in the REAL world that is what needs to happen. Medicine needs to be more social than political. I don't want government to run medicine. I also do not think the medical industry as it stands today is sustainable.
Jensenman wrote: In reply to GlennS: Once the government gets involved in health care, they will be looking to cut the costs since the taxpayers will squeal like pigs. For a perfect example, the O said he'd pay for health care reform by cutting Medicare costs. In many cases, but not all, government contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder or a job is done on a 'cost plus' basis. So here's what happens: the venture capitalists and others who currently fund biotech etc with the hope of getting a piece of the profits from the next Viagra won't have that as a goal any more. It doesn't make sense for them to pour millions or billions into something over a long time period to fund research and to have the FDA spend 5-10 years getting approval for a 10% ROI. So the money for such research will have to come from, you guessed it, the government. That brings us full circle to cost cutting. Right now we the US health care consumers are funding research which leads to biotech that's used all over the world but at an artificially reduced price. That's why you can buy stuff from overseas pharmacies cheaper than you can buy it here. As I said, once the profit motive is removed, US (and actually worldwide) health care will suffer.
Sounds like a plausible scenario i guess. Lets hope that doesnt happen.
I kid you not, My wife and I received a letter from blue cross today, 2 weeks after I made the first claim on the insurance in 5 years of us having it. I had a kidney stone and and went in for the yada yada CT scan, blood work, urine work, vicodin scrip... it passes and I am fine. TWO berkeleying WEEKS LATER they want to kick me off the insurance!! Questions like, can your spouse qualify for medicare! Can your spouse be insured on a FORMER SPOUSES health plan!!!
Why mess up this wonderful system?
From Newstados Unidos
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/18/michelle.obama.health.reform/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn
Shaun wrote: I kid you not, My wife and I received a letter from blue cross today, 2 weeks after I made the first claim on the insurance in 5 years of us having it. I had a kidney stone and and went in for the yada yada CT scan, blood work, urine work, vicodin scrip... it passes and I am fine. TWO berkeleying WEEKS LATER they want to kick me off the insurance!! Questions like, can your spouse qualify for medicare! Can your spouse be insured on a FORMER SPOUSES health plan!!! Why mess up this wonderful system?
Good question if the document you received specifically stated your coverage was cancelled. Otherwise, you received a questionnaire.
Also, this seems like a perfectly good example of what may occur when/if a "public-option" is on the table. Private insurers will push policy owners toward the government system in order to maintain profitability.
The government plan is thus overwhelmed, costs escalate, services are delayed or curtailed. But, everyone gets some kind of diluted coverage - eventually.
Both "systems" suck and it will take some creative, unbiased minds to sort things out. Another reason not to trust government as the solution to problems it helped create.
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