So this morning I have to go take a three hour electrical exam on star connectors in a Chrysler Pacifica because Stellantis distributes half the cars on earth. As I'm taking this completely worthless (for me) exam this is the service drive at work.....something doesn't line up here.
I'm old, grumpy, and I want everyone off my lawn lol.
I don't disagree with you necessarily, but I am failing to see the connection.
That being said, I am an engineer. I work with engineers. Some of them are brilliant and know how to work with objects and people and are successful.
Others are not so good with people OR objects.
Some of them have formal educations and even doctorate degrees. Some have a high school diploma.
There does not seem to be any correlation between degree and ability. There also doesn't seem to be much correlation between time on the job and ability.
I *think* it's more about can you apply your knowledge and wisdom to the task at hand? Can you learn from your own and others successes and failures and apply it to future tasks?
Then finally, did the individual take advantage of the opportunities that were available? This last one is the difference I see most often for people working for a "normal" paycheck and those that can afford ferraris.
"Trades are for the dumb kids, you need to learn 'computers' if you want to get a job"
One of my teachers in high-school. Coincidentally the same one who didn't understand that a salary is the whole years pay, paid out in a set number of installments. If you have no pay for two months in the summer, that's your fault.
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I should also say that most of my teachers were great and had a big hand in putting me where I am today. There were only a couple who were completely useless and they were certainly in the minority.
Schooling is less valuable without experience.
Experience is less valuable without schooling.
Both are less valuable without a brain that can absorb and generalize them for application to new situations or issues.
I had a minute this morning and was exploring some ball park ideas as had talked with some high school buddies who are current electricians. Put in some benchmark salary info based on google results for average in Virginia assuming Journeyman and Master electrician status, and threw some random 3.5% annual raises and 10% Promotions in there. For Engineers I did what our industry hires at along with some baseline career advancement routes I've know people to follow (shift supervisors/superintendent/technical manager/etc.). Assumed $50k in loans at like 6.5% interest, pays off over 8-10 years at ~$650/month payment. Loans payments subtracted from earnings till they are gone. The crossover point is at ~18 years after high school graduation with a bunch of random assumptions, no bonuses , pension, overtime, or anything accounted for.
In reply to johndej :
I appreciate the Excel graph :).
ShawnG said:"Trades are for the dumb kids, you need to learn 'computers' if you want to get a job"
Learned computers, career-wise I give it 1 star, would not do again.
If this exam gets you some sort of certification, and that certification is what you need to keep working or move up in that shop full of Ferraris and other exotics, then yes it is what you need to know.
Years ago I took the CPA exam and had to study all sort of things like auditing governmental entities and accounting for pension plans. Did I ever end up doing those things? No, but I wouldn't be where I am now without that CPA credential, so it was what I needed to do at the time.
It's going to depend on the person. I manage to make more than most engineers even though I dropped out of HS my senior year. School did nothing for me beyond teaching me to hate school. Another person may not be able to do that.
The one-size-fits-all schooling is why a lot of schooling is worthless. Unfortunately, there has to be some kind of program to teach the basics. Our current school system sucks at it so if you have kids, you better plan on teaching them everything the school system doesn't.
It depends a lot on what you mean by "engineer". For example, starting salary for a new grad software engineer (yes, I know, not a "real engineer") at Apple is about $150K.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
A "Sanitation engineer" on the other hand makes around minimum wage 
These threads are always so productive.
GameboyRMH said:In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
A "Sanitation engineer" on the other hand makes around minimum wage
Not from my experience.
In GA the average wage for a garbage collector is twice the minimum wage.
SV reX said:GameboyRMH said:In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
A "Sanitation engineer" on the other hand makes around minimum wage
Not from my experience.
In GA the average wage for a garbage collector is twice the minimum wage.
GameboyRMH said:ShawnG said:"Trades are for the dumb kids, you need to learn 'computers' if you want to get a job"
Learned computers, career-wise I give it 1 star, would not do again.
You absolutely need to be able to use a computer to function in the modern world BUT learning Turbo Pascal has done precisely SFA for me.
prodarwin said:These threads are always so productive.
What? You don't like sweeping generalizations based on a sample of one? What are you even doing on the internet? 
So let me tell you about the Stellantis test. Parts one and two were good. They were basic dmm questions and diagrams you had to calculate voltage drop off of resistance and things like that. Section three starts off with termination resistance questions with diagrams for a dodge....not the architecture we work on so I do my best to answer what seems like it makes sense. Then there were pull up questions when we mostly use NTCs and pull down circuits. I felt like i did okay on this because theroy us the same on everything. Section four opened with how do Dodge Ram side steps detect a blockage....so that was that whole section. Section five was mostly about Chrysler minivans. All praise be to our one lord and savior Dale Earnhardt I got 100% on sections one and two so it averaged out the 60% I got on four and five so I passed. I have been to soooo many good classes and taken worthwhile tests with JLR, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati and FCA when they were in charge.... they taught and tested what mattered. Since Stellantis has taken over they have done nothing but outsource training and make it the same across the board based on CDJR. I LOVE getting to work on Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa but holy crap this new path is mentally draining.
ShawnG said:GameboyRMH said:ShawnG said:"Trades are for the dumb kids, you need to learn 'computers' if you want to get a job"
Learned computers, career-wise I give it 1 star, would not do again.
You absolutely need to be able to use a computer to function in the modern world BUT learning Turbo Pascal has done precisely SFA for me.
Learning to program in any language actually helps with troubleshooting and logical thinking skills. I learned to program in BASIC, which obviously is of no use to me anymore. But the way of thinking about programming and about problems in general sticks around - even if you're trying to figure out a wiring problem on a Dodge minivan.
In reply to Toyman! :
So true. I keep trying to get people to understand we are teaching students to learn, not to pass a test. That said, it's a skill to know how to pass tests, and it can pay off big time.
I also teach my students basic car care, finance (specifically looking at cost of living in different areas and average earning levels in specific careers of interest), home repairs, and how to generally not be an shiny happy person. Some do better than others in each of those areas.
GameboyRMH said:ShawnG said:"Trades are for the dumb kids, you need to learn 'computers' if you want to get a job"
Learned computers, career-wise I give it 1 star, would not do again.
Meanwhile trades are currently at 8 percent of workers to job openings.
Learn to build things people and tell your kids, SVRex, Toyman and I ( among the many others ) can't do everything no matter how much money you throw at us.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Never thought about it like that.
Duke said:Schooling is less valuable without experience.
Experience is less valuable without schooling.
Both are less valuable without a brain that can absorb and generalize them for application to new situations or issues.
Need to buy you a beer.
I've actually been told, by peers and bosses, when they thought i was being a know it all "those engineers spent a lot of money to get their degrees. I'm sure they know more about it than you do". I usually don't last long on that job afterwards.
Sometimes i get to fix it the right way first. Sometimes I don't.
Guidance counselor at my high school, circa 1983: "You are too smart and have too much potential to go to Vo-Tech".
I did not go to college. I don't like or learn stuff that way. I work in a field requiring automotive knowledge, even though I am not hands-on. I have to educate all the college grads above me why things work the way they do. I'm lucky to have found my niche my own way.
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