went sailing for the first time, thinking about boats now

This site always seems to have a lot of interesting people and stories. Who here has tried living on a small boat for a while and what did you think of it? I've been on some of the sailing boards lurking and been reading books and magazines, but I've yet to find a subject that the GRM community doesn't know and have a solid opinion or three on and I'd appreciate any input.

In my search for a new place to live, I have considered moving on to a boat in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore for several years as a way to live downtown without roommate or ungodly high rent payments alone. Plus boats look like fun and an easy way to pick up and move should/when the desire to do so strikes again. I have about as little stuff as I ever have at this point and have room in my dad's storage unit if there's something I need and can't fit, so the timing is right. One problem... I haven't been sailing since I was a little kid and that was on a sunfish before I understood how sails work.

After a little e-shopping and a few emails and phone calls, I found a liveaboard couple looking to sell their 25' seidelmann sloop as they are moving up to a bigger boat. Today I checked it out and got to take her out for a sail.

The Gurney bubble over the cabin has been added as the previous owner was 6'+.

She's pretty beamy at nearly 10' wide, so there's actually a decent amount of room below with lockers in or under just about every horizontal space. There is room under the cockpit steps as it has an 8hp honda outboard instead of an inboard motor. Fresh water and gray water tanks, the head is a porta pott. There is also a 12gal internal fuel tank with plenty of room for gas cans in the locker. Also comes with a Garmin and depth sounder.

But enough of that, after chatting for about an hour we motor out of the slip and out into the harbor. Once clear of the marina we turn the motor off, pull into the wind and raise the sails... and wait. Winds were fickle early in the afternoon and we eventually started moving along at a blistering 0.9-1.2 knots. Once clear of the inner harbor and its surround tall buildings, the winds picked up and we spend most of the rest of the afternoon clipping along at 3-4 knots with the occasional burst up to 5+ when it got gusty. Moving under sail was awesome! It was a lot of fun running heeled over at what felt like 45 degrees with the rails barely above the water, definitely the most fun I've ever had at a jogging pace lol.

We got tossed around a little when the faster and bigger boats in the harbor (i.e. everything lol) but it was a ton of fun.

For a total first experience, as we were headed back in to town a storm blew in so I got to experience the fun of trying drop sails with the winds picking up and motoring back to port. Motoring sucks but its definitely nice to have the option when the weather is telling you to get home now.

Me, enjoying the hell out of myself, and Lydia, one of the owners

Spruce, the other owner, at the helm motoring home.

So yeah, good times on the water. I want a boat now...

A boat is a hole in the water into which money is thrown. My dad spend several years living on a BIG catamaran. A sailboat seems like it would be inexpensive, but it's not.

Salt water environments are harsh. All that running gear does wear out, and is expensive. Corroded metal sucks. What is that hull made from? Because turns out wood is a pain in the ass to take care of out on the sea.

Slip fees are not cheap either.

You'll also have to get used to doing without, or a lot less of, things that everyone readily takes for granted. Like, nearly unlimited electricity. No big deal, right? Do you like refrigeration? Granted most boats will have a small, ultra efficient ice box. But we're talking really small.

Pure water is the big one: nice toilets, showers, drinking water, washing clothes, washing dishes. It can be tough. Oh yeah, also HOT water. Very few boats will have that.

On the flip side, you'll lose weight. Just being on a small boat probably ups your calorie use by 1000/day.

That's not to say you shouldn't do it. But there are a lot of little things that you need to really think about whether or not you can live without.

you know how racing yachts circle each other while waiting for the start of the race? I once heard a TV announcer describe that as, "the mating dance of the lead-bottomed money gulpers"

does the boat have a good heater?... winter will be comin' ya know

Showers in the communal bath house. Same with the potty. If either are there, and useable. Loads of fun at night when you need to wake up and pee.

A gentle rocking lullaby at night to sleep by. Unless there's a storm. Then you can bounce off the walls of your cabin, puking, as your boat tears itself to pieces against the pier.

Nowhere to fix the boat after its torn itself up from that storm.

Free long term slips in Baltimore have been gone for years. The closest I know of for long term living cheaply are those over by/in Cherry Hill. Terminal Blvd and Waterview Ave. Consider what those neighborhoods are like late at night.

All in all, it sounds perfect for a young man. I almost did it when I was many years younger. Rather wish I would have.

I have done a lot of sailing but I have never done the live-a-board thing.
Like RV's the live-a-board thing is a lifestyle. The lifestyle you want is this.

If you try to do it ultra cheap it will come off looking like this.

In short it is easy to come off as "living in a van down by the river."

Real live-a-board sailboats are different from cruising sailboats. Cruisers typically have a boat of 35 ft or more and move often from port to port. Live-a-boarders typically do not leave the dock. These boats do not go out sailing because they are too full with the items needed to live. It is sort of like not racing your car because to do so means that you need to remove all junk in the trunk and stuff in the back seat; not to mention that the brakes are good enough for commuting but not good enough for track duty.
In a lot of ways, living on a 25ft Seidleman will be seen as one step short of homelessness.

I do not want to discourage you from doing it I just want you to know how it will be seen by others. If that is acceptable to you then fine. As others have mentioned, it is similar to camping in just slightly better than a tent every night. Very subject to outdoor temps since you have really no insulation and inefficient hvac, if any. Many marinas frown of live-a-boards and many have limits on how many nights per month you can sleep on your boat. Be sure to check. Prices at places that allow it may be higher because they know you will be using the showers and electric every day.

What I really think you should look into is crewing on other peoples boats. This is a ultra-cheap way to get into a lot of sailing. Personally, I have been racing sailboats for over 15 yrs and I have still never owned a boat. I can be racing every weds and every weekend if I want. On bigger boats (over 30ft) that require 6-9 crew members per race, there is always an opening somewhere. Once you have been around and find a steady crew and boat owner to race with there are plenty of opportunities.
For some insight to this take a moment and read through this posting:
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=118929
To get started in racing, just start asking around the local clubs of try posting on sites like listed above. Be very honest about your ability. I would rather have inexperienced but willing and eager crew over a guy who just wants to tell me how good he is. I like to take a total noob and train/teach them they way I like them.

Now, maybe what I have written has discouraged you. That is not what I want to do, so, here is a gem. This is a 1 hour 15 min video of a true free spirit. Maybe a darwin candidate or maybe a genius. I find that I am both envious of the characters as well as not interested and disliking them. What bothers me most is I have never felt the full freedom-to-run that these guys have but I have rather subscribed to the saftey of normality.
Video: http://vimeo.com/15351476

If you can think of it as a Grand Adventure, with no real expectations of long term life style, have nothing to lose, and patience to deal with the sacrifices, I say do it. Worst that can happen is you don't like it, and then you sell it and move on. And have hours of sea stories to tell.

The main problem I see here is:

>the head is a porta pott.

Just don't see that as workable for "live a board."

And I did live onboard small boats for a few years. Smallest was just over 500 ft. Real small. Got pretty tight at the end of the 6 months.

you DO NOT want to go near a seidelmann! Trust me on this one. They were built by a sailmaker who took a shot at building boats. Forgot one thing: cauling between the keel and the hull. As a result A LOT of them leaked when new, or, later in their life as the keel torsionally flexed, they would weap/leak. The only cure is to drop the keel, properly caulk between the keel and the hull, and rebolt it in place--provided the keel bolts are not corroded...that's another problem with these boats. Yes, they are quick, but they don't have a great build reputation at all.

Been there, done that, lived aboard at The Anchorage Marina in Baltimore. Yes, it can be lots of fun, and the flexibility you describe is great. It's also like living in the smallest town that LOVES to gossip at the drop of a hat. Mention something at the beginning of walking down the dock, and the person at the end will ask you about it! Really, it's like that at times.

OTOH, there is a feeling of community that is not found any other place. You're all fighting the elements year round.

Watch out for the different contracts regarding electrical usage per month/per slip, or if you're being ganged with a bunch of other boats and splitting the cost. Also water supply in the winter. You will most likely wind up, during the winter, on one dock with the rest of the year-round liveaboards.

Quartz, cool-to-the-touch heaters work well on a liveaboard of the size you're considering. There are also bulkhead-mounted heaters that are available to burn everything from charcol/wood to propane-fired ones. Not cheap, but they look nice, and some give off a LOT of heat. Then there's condensation to consider. It can be a problem. Proper ventelation is your friend!

Head room. Do NOT discount headroom forward of the first 5 feet down below, as the siedelmann may have a problem there...it's been a while since I've been on one. Regrigeration or not, consider that.

When was it last hauled for bottom paint, and you'll need to get it surveyed for any kind of financing and insurance. You'll pay the surveyor and the yacht yard. The boat will be lifted out of the water--ask if you can have it simply sit in the slings during the marina's lunch break, and you'll save some money. $500 for a survey is not unusual.

If I were you, I'd contact some of the liveaboards at the Anchorage marina, or other marinas in the inner or outer harbor, and ask them about the different marinas, and how they are treating the liveaboards: are the bathrooms open year round, laundry service nearby, problems with the electrical systems (a frequent problem) overall treatment of liveaboards. AND the all important what type of contract does one sign, and do you need additional insurance on the boat since you're a liveaboard.

BTW, mention liveaboard when financing, and A LOT of banks will shut you down then and there. You can sail off to the hinterlands with the asset they're financing. "Yes, I plan on doing some extended cruising, time allowing." Smile.

It has been 10 years plus since I lived aboard down there, so things have changed. Look up the Baltimore Yacht Club, and talk to some of their members. Also, there should be (was) racing every thursday evening. The day may have changed, but it's a great way to crew and get a taste of sailing, and talk about some of these topics.

Trust me on this one, as a former yacht broker, delivery captain, and owner of a marine service company, if I were you, I'd walk away from any seidelman. Yes, there are exceptions; spend some time looking at other boats for sale--it's a buyer's market---for comparison. Good luck.It can be great, and I miss it, but, do some more research before jumping in.

.

We as Americans are the most pampered, self-indulgent people the earth has ever seen. Human beings can live without the luxuries we take for granted today. There are many folks who have happily adapted to life aboard a boat. It's not as big a deal as some would make it to be. Just do your homework. Don't jump aboard the first boat you find for sale.

Regarding the problem concerning the "Where do you live?" question: It's all in how you spin it. Do not say "I live in a boat down by the river." Say instead "I spend most of my time aboard my yacht."

If you are serious about doing the liveaboard route, feel free to PM me. Busy day planned, but I'll get back to you when I can.

I never did the liveaboard thing.. but growing up, my best friend did it during the summer. His parents would come down to the shore after school got out and his mom, him, and his two older brothers would live aboard a 33foot cabin cruiser for the summer.

I spend most of my time as a homeowner dealing with problems that all boil down to water getting where it shouldn't AND I LIVE ON LAND.

foxtrapper wrote: Loads of fun at night when you need to wake up and pee.

You are surrounded by a place to pee.

I think it is probably a maintenance and hidden cost nightmare as others have said... with the same quality environment as tent camping.

It is a cool idea and you should run with it because life is too short to say "I wish I lived on that boat in Baltimore back when I had the chance". Even bad experiences look good thru the rosy colored glasses of memory.

the good thing about Baltimore.. anything north of Kent Island (bay bridge) is usually freshway at lowtide.. so by the time you get to Baltimore.. the fresh to salt ratio is pretty high

I lived 24/7 on a 34 ft houseboat for three months with my two kids, then aged 7 and 12. They are grown now but still tell me it was the best summer of their lives. I have to agree with them. It would be a bit tough in winter though up here in the GWN.

I know folks who have done it. Two words: Constant_maintenance. Know why people pay for flood insurance? Because "House" and "Water" don't go real well together.

THAT SAID: I think it's a cool idea...assuming you have endless time and money.

After attending my first race I just knew I had to sell everything I own to become a racer. After the adrenaline and hormones slowed down reality came around.....

My wife and I, sometimes with another couple sometimes not, rent a Sabre 38 for a week out of Rock Hall, Md. It's nice to sail into a different port, go out to dinner, see some sights, sometimes we "camp out" off an island. Same routine you had Skierd, coffee on, motor out to the channel, sails up, dump the coffee and go right to the beer. Sail around all day ending up in another town, repeat five or six times.

After a week I'm about ready to stand on something solid, ready to unbloat and more than willing to run around the block a few times.

Huge difference between daysailing and liveaboard, do lots of home work.

Good luck.

Dan

A good friend of mine lived aboard a 28' sloop in Boston Harbor for about 3 years.

Prior to this, he had total sailing experience of maybe 4-5 day sails on my 22' Catalina.

He had a combination of strong sailing enthusiasm and strong financial incentive.

A small boat payment, slip fees (including a parking spot), insurance and utilities cost him about $1000 a month. He could walk to work (again - Boston), and had to support/maintain only a beater car.

Even a small apartment in downtown Boston would have been double, at least.

He would build a frame and have the boat shrink-wrapped in winter, with a little door frame for in and out.

I lived in a VW bus for a summer, it depends on your motivation.

The two best days of boat ownership:

The day you buy it.

The day you sell it.

I don't know a thing about boats of any kind let alone sailboats.

But compared to your cross-country motorcycle expeditions living on a boat sounds like luxury camping.

Dr. Hess wrote: The main problem I see here is: >the head is a porta pott. Just don't see that as workable for "live a board."

well.. you are not allowed to just pump your E36 M3 overboard anymore. Even grey water is highly frowned upon (if not banned already)

My parents spend about 6 months a year on one of these. They are doing the Great Loop

It's 35' long, and gets about 2.5 MPG. They only have another 3-4K miles to go. This summer is the Tennessee River system. I don't expect the boat to be home for another year or two.

I would love to live aboard a boat. There are two problems though. No garage space on board, and I know how expensive boats are having owned a lot of them. Maintenance on a salt water rig requires a torch to free corroded fasteners. I have burned the gaskets out of several outboards just trying to get the power head off the foot. My current boat is a 20' IO. It needs work now, but working on them just pisses me off and I can't afford to pay someone else to fix them.

I've got a 20' boat for challenge money or less if anyone is interested.

Best advice I can give, start small. Even a 15' jon-boat can be a pain to own. I can't imagine starting my boating career with a live aboard.

Bring

On

Another

Thousand