cwh wrote: OK, I'm not going to into the philosophical argued above. I'm just going to say I'm really happy we live in a country where you can say really nasty stuff and not get a death sentence for it. It's not like that in most of the rest of the world. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are mandatory for a true free country.
I agree with you, cwh. Good word. I guess it applies to this thread as much as it does to the Westboro crowd.
ReverendDexter wrote:ScottyB wrote: the Bible specifically teaches not to judge othersWhere? Are you talking about Matthew 7:1-2, or some other passage(s)? 'Cause those two don't teach people not to judge, they're just the biblical way of saying "there's always someone faster".
Huh. I'm curious what you mean here. I agree, that's why it says you shouldn't judge. But I can't see any other way of reading it than, well, judge not, that ye be not judged. I mean, it does say "judge not". I'm not a literal Bible guy myself, but I do think the book is amazing if read right. It's kind of the colelctive wisdom of mankind from the dawn of reason to some point a couple thousand years ago. We figured a lot of stuff out the hard way and that one book sure does a good job explaining how to avoid a lot of it. Kind of a shame we quite adding to it.
Not a big deal, and in the environment of this thread I hope it doesn't come off as an argument. I'd really like to hear more about your thought on this. I'd feel bad about the threadjack, but...
SVreX wrote: CJ: But that wasn't enough. You did it in an accusational way, like anyone who is stupid enough to believe in Him is completely aligned with the WB idiots.
So you are saying (judging) they are "idiots". Why are they "idiots" and you are not? Why is thier opinion of god's word any less true than yours? Just because you want to distance yourself from another interpretation of the same book doesn't mean that others don't view your opinion as idiotic.
Sounds awfully negative to me. I'm sorry, but god is the only reason this thread is here. The Westboro church is speaking in the name of god, hence the premise of this discussion.
In reply to fast_eddie_72:
Well, it doesn't stop at saying "Judge not". It says if you judge, here's the consequence, you'll be judged by the very metric you're using to judge others. Not even really that harsh of a consequence, all things considered, mostly just a tautology about people and an inference that you'll almost certainly be short by your own metric.
Contrast that with passages like Proverbs 31:9 which gives explicit instruction to go judge: "Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." Or 1st Corinthians 6:2: "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (remembering that all who are in heaven are technically saints).
All things considered, I'm no bible expert. I just like to check the context on the quotes that people like to toss around, and usually find that when placed in context they don't have the same meaning that they're wielded as having.
ReverendDexter wrote: I just like to check the context on the quotes that people like to toss around, and usually find that when placed in context they don't have the same meaning that they're wielded as having.
I wish more people would do that. I think a lot of the mean-spirited stuff that gets done in the name of religion is done by people who are simply accepting what they were told by somebody they trusted to do the interpretation for them, without study, reflection, or introspection.
By the same token, that's probably true of a lot of the good works as well, but that's not the same kind of problem.
ReverendDexter wrote: All things considered, I'm no bible expert. I just like to check the context on the quotes that people like to toss around, and usually find that when placed in context they don't have the same meaning that they're wielded as having.
Thanks for the reply- I see exactly what you're saying now. And boy do I agree with this last bit.
Thanks!
Ed
Cone_Junky wrote:SVreX wrote: CJ: But that wasn't enough. You did it in an accusational way, like anyone who is stupid enough to believe in Him is completely aligned with the WB idiots.So you are saying (judging) they are "idiots". Why are they "idiots" and you are not? Why is thier opinion of god's word any less true than yours? Just because you want to distance yourself from another interpretation of the same book doesn't mean that others don't view your opinion as idiotic. Sounds awfully negative to me. I'm sorry, but god is the only reason this thread is here. The Westboro church is speaking in the name of god, hence the premise of this discussion.
I realize you are baiting me, and I should not respond. I guess the judgement I'll pass on myself is that I sometimes do foolish things.
But you should understand that there is a tremendous difference between utilizing wisdom and discernment to determine right from wrong, and passing judgement on a person's soul for eternity.
I don't mind your accusations of "judgement". I know better. Their actions are pitiful, but I'll leave the judgement to someone better than I.
They are false prophets, but their biggest crime is not their hate. It's mis-representing a Holy and loving God to many, many people like you. That's really sad, because you don't need to be misled in this manner.
In reply to SVreX:
I appreciate the humble reply. I too should be more humble in my opinions. Unfortunately these topics strike a cord in me that brings on anger and bitterness. I should not project my bitterness unto others if their beliefs make them happy and encourage bringing happiness to others.
The Westboro church encourages hate, members of this board do not.
Pie anyone? (Humble pie, of course!)
CJ- sounds to me like perhaps you have had some bad experiences with people who are Christians (or at least purport to be). My personal beliefs won't sway you and I wouldn't insult you by trying. I actually have some good friends who are atheist/agnostics, and I find them to be very enlightened thinkers who are good people (at least in my opinion). I also have good "christian" friends who are complete hippocrites which really annoys me, but they are who they are.
you know.. I used to hate religions as a young athiest.. I used to rail against them with all my might. I found out it wasn't worth my time. I'd rather spend my time doing something constructive.
Case in point.. I was in church with my wife at Christmastime. (Yes.. I go every week with her, because she wants me to go... So I sit and stare at the walls and now take care of the kids.) She was very pregnant and it was standing room only. I had parked the car and she was standing up with my child preparing to stand for a hour. Not one person in a packed church at Christmastime would get up voluntarily and offer this 9 month pregnant woman with 2 year old in tow, a seat. Old me would have started to rip these people apart verbally for their callousness and blatant disregard for the tenants that their religion was founded upon... Not worth my time now. I went into action and found my wife a seat, because the ushers were worthless. Sure when asked to move for the pregnant lady, they sure did; but no one volunteered. Sad folks, but there was no need for me to push this point further so I let it be and stood in the back of church for an hour waiting patiently to collect my wife and child when mass was over.
There are plenty of good and bad people part of every organization everywhere... The key is to look past the bad bits and find the good; Sadly I don't think many of us have that skillset. Though, I kinda doubt if there is a bit of good left in Fred Phelps.
cardiacdog wrote: CJ- sounds to me like perhaps you have had some bad experiences with people who are Christians (or at least purport to be). My personal beliefs won't sway you and I wouldn't insult you by trying. I actually have some good friends who are atheist/agnostics, and I find them to be very enlightened thinkers who are good people (at least in my opinion). I also have good "christian" friends who are complete hippocrites which really annoys me, but they are who they are.
Quoted for truth.
I actually had a very interesting religious discussion with a former nun the other night. Being that she left because of her beliefs and that she is gay, we both agreed on most points and the hypocrosy of the system. We also both beleived that the idea is good, just interprited so poorly most of the time.
Yes, I won't go into all my reasons and bad experiences, but my bitterness started when my family was no longer accepted at our Catholic church because of my parents' divorce when I was 6. That's a sure way to steer me away from religion at a very young age.
Judged unworthy at 6, that's just berkeleyed up.
I dont really spend as much time analyzing my "faith" as I used to (catholic HS and Theology class etc), but I learned one very clear lesson when I was younger, and that is the tolerant in society are almost always persecuted by those less tolerant. I know my previous post (no 2 in this thread) sounded rather tongue and cheek, but the core of my statement, I believe wholeheartedly. Those poor WBC bastards have to live their lives with hate in their heart and a lack of the tolerance "their savior" tried to teach them to embrace.
Ive never read the bible all the way through, and Im not a quoter per se, but I do know theres a passage where christians are told by Jesus basically that the way you treat the lowliest of the low is how you treat him. Im not sure Id tell Jesus I wanted him to die because I thought he was gay by association. Somewhere in there is something that just doesnt jive with me.
I agree the right to assemble and voice your opinion is defended by our constitution. I really dont see anything wrong with saying what you hav to say. Its just a shame that the WBC people dont have a strand of common decency in them, and we all have to inhabit the same rock as them. Unfortunately, theres not much we can do except try maybe to change their minds through discussion....either that or punch them in the gonads until they leave.
CJ:
I've been shunned too.
By both Christians and Atheists.
I understand how you feel.
But you weren't actually judged. They didn't have the authority to judge you, only the ability to act stupid.
If you were waiting to go into a courtroom for a case that was an obvious slam dunk in your favor, and some bum in the lobby said, "Well, what the heck are you waiting for? You're obviously guilty", it wouldn't mean you were guilty, nor that you didn't have a right to be heard by the judge. But if you walked out at that point because he said something stupid, you might miss out on something good.
Don't give dumb people more authority than they have. You might miss out on something good.
Yep, that is messed up and I think that is a big failing on the part of the Catholic church specifically and others in general. You had not one but two "traumas" to a young psyche. Can't blame you for telling religion in general to take a hike.
My main issue with the people at Westboro is that what they are doing just doesn't pass the "Does this feel right" test. The answer is no in my opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right so to speak. Frankly they are wrong in my opinion but that's what makes America different than a lot of the world. You can disagree and not lose your life over it (unless we're talking college football here in Alabama, then it's on like Donkey Kong!)
The same freedom that protects that is the same freedom that allows me to call them all sorts of nasty names if I ever meet one of them in person 
Well, that might not technically be true (slander), but I don't care, because I'll do it anyway.
Alright, let's bring this back on topic for a second.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/article943258.ece/Anonymous-takes-down-Westboro-Baptist-Church
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/02/25/westboro_baptist_church_anonymous_website
If you don't like something, do something to change it, or at least have fun for a few minutes.
Derick Freese wrote: Alright, let's bring this back on topic for a second. http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/article943258.ece/Anonymous-takes-down-Westboro-Baptist-Church http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/02/25/westboro_baptist_church_anonymous_website If you don't like something, do something to change it, or at least have fun for a few minutes.
thats awesome, its so awesome, I literally am unable to stop smiling
mndsm wrote: They protest soldiers funerals and all kinda stupid E36 M3, not realizing that without those soldiers, the freedoms they enjoy as given to them by the government ...
Minor quibble:
Freedoms are not given to us by the government. Freedom is the natural state of man. Governments can, on occasion, protect a right, possibly restore one, but not grant one.
slantvaliant wrote:mndsm wrote: They protest soldiers funerals and all kinda stupid E36 M3, not realizing that without those soldiers, the freedoms they enjoy as given to them by the government ...Minor quibble: Freedoms are not given to us by the government. Freedom is the natural state of man. Governments can, on occasion, protect a right, possibly restore one, but not grant one.
I agree with this. Freedom is actually free.
Derick Freese wrote: Alright, let's bring this back on topic for a second. http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/article943258.ece/Anonymous-takes-down-Westboro-Baptist-Church http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/02/25/westboro_baptist_church_anonymous_website If you don't like something, do something to change it, or at least have fun for a few minutes.
berkeley yes.
And I'll give an internet cookie to the first person who can tell me what type of assult it would be for me to hold down the ring leader of Westboro "baptist" church and take a E36 M3 in their mouth.
It is a good ruling.
I don't believe in god.
I don't believe in magic.
I DO believe in the Bill of Rights.
The COTUS was not arguing the Bible. They were guarding our ability to speak freely. Rock on.
And I'll give an internet cookie to the first person who can tell me what type of assult it would be for me to hold down the ring leader of Westboro "baptist" church and take a E36 M3 in their mouth.
There is a career for you in "german" films.
IMO, Westboro is doing nothing but trolling. If you feed the trolls, they get louder and more obnoxious. If you ignore them, they go away.
I've been around for way too long to see this as anything BUT trollin'. Fred Phelps is a masterful troll, and any media attention he gets just boosts his ego. That's why Anon completely disregarded their threats until that interview I posted.
The more I learn about the WBC, the less it appears a church w/ a protest and the more it looks like a protest group w/ the front of a church... no... better said affront.
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