What the Confederate flag means to me

Please be civil.

When I moved to the South, I really didn't understand what I was seeing. I thought the Civil War was the past. I thought it was over. Can we move on?

I have lived closely with a lot of people- blacks, whites, hispanics, Northerners, Southerners, racists, religious, liberals, conservatives. It has forced me to dig deeply and really think. I read a lot of history, searched writings of historians from both sides, and honestly examined my own heart and motivations.

I have now lived in the South more than half my life. I am still a Yankee, always will be. But I am a Yankee with a deep appreciation of things that I would not otherwise understand. Eventually, I realized something I had never considered. As a Northerner, I was part of a culture that had never experienced defeat in war on my own soil. I had never had my heritage ripped from me, or my future defined by others.

I also realized that history books are written by winners of wars. My perspective as a Northerner was uniquely molded by a Northern perspective, captured in the dominant history books and taught in the government run schools.

And some of what I had learned was wrong.

So, I came to an uneasy acceptance that I may never understand, but also that as long as I live in the South, I am (in part), the enemy. It caused me to live in humility, and appreciation of the good things I could see in my own culture and the various cultures around me.

Recent news coverages have made me consider it once again. I am more uneasy with where we are at as a Nation on this subject than I have ever been.

It is true that some people are hurt by the image of the Confederate flag, and it is true some are just grabbing attention and being overly dramatic. It is true that it represents a rich heritage to some people, and it is true some are truly azzhats, bigots, or even terrorists.

Political correctness and censorship will not change the truth.

On some level it is hard to understand why it was ever allowed to be flown. Regardless of people's feelings about it, there is one historical fact... It is the flag of a people group that was conquered in war.

Isn't it odd that we ever allowed it to be flown? What's up with that? For tens of thousands of years nations have been conquered, and winners of wars have flown their colors to exhibit their dominance, and authority. Winners don't let losers fly their colors. Why would we do this?

I have a theory.

I believe it is neither heritage, nor hate. The Confederate flag is evidence of our Freedom. I believe the tenant of Free Speech is so ingrained and foundational to our entire DNA, that we can't separate from it. To do so would mean we would cease to be Americans. And the right to fly the Confederate flag is a right that has been granted to preserve this utmost sacred tenant. It represents the uncomfortable tension that exists with freedom and responsibility. There is no freedom if we are not free to speak unpopular speech.

It's not always pretty. It sometimes represents horrible things. But honestly, so does the Stars and Stripes.

Today, laws are being passed to stifle this speech. This flag is being blamed for the hatred in men's hearts where it can not be rationalized, explained, or understood.

I checked Google shopping today. The search "confederate flag" has been removed, and replaced with a notice "Your search- confederate flag- did not match any shopping results". That means no one can buy anything with a Confederate flag. Not a historical artifact, nor a theatrical prop, nor a book about the history or the atrocities, nothing.

But a search for "swastika" gave me every opportunity to buy whatever I want- Buddhist Swastika footed pajamas, wedding rings, armbands, books, whatever.

Are we so lame and utterly pathetic in our ability to handle difficulties that we think we can regulate hate and pain out of existence? Do we believe the world will be a better place if we censure it better? Don't we realize that we are choosing to forget our own past, and therefore condemning ourselves to relive it?

More than 1.4 million people in the US fly the colors of more than 33,000 gangs who commit nearly 50% of the violent crime in this country. What is it that we actually afraid of?

The Confederate flag does not create hate. Hate exists. Limiting the ability to express strong beliefs by displaying it may even lead to more hate, fear, and crime. The answer is not limiting speech. The answer is working harder to understand the perspective of people who are different than ourselves.

I don't want to give in to the fear. I reject the fear mongering from parties on both sides using this issue to control me and gain influence, power, and money. I am willing to carry the burden of Freedom, and understand the uncomfortable cost.

Mods, do what you need to.

I look at South Africa. When Mandela became president he allowed the old apartied flag and anthem to remain. While representing a nasty part of history, it was still a part of history. To erase that was to become everything the Afrikaners freared.

A lot of companies are pulling confederate flag products from their shelves because they don't want to touch the controversy with a 30ft pole. It's getting an unusual amount of attention right now for obvious reasons. Warner Bros. even ended licensing for models of the General Lee.

All I know is that it's extremely berkeleyed up that the SC capitol building is (was?) flying one. It certainly had no place there.

as an educated american i understand the history behind the flag and what it stood for. also, when i see someone driving a jacked up 4x4 f350 belching coal with that flag on it they either have zero idea what it does stand for, or they are someone with whom my opinions would have a very good chance of upsetting.

that's all i have to say about that.

Would you call the white hood of the KKK a symbol of our freedom? No, it's a symbol of racism and hate.

I've lived in the south nearly my whole life. To me, the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of nostalgia for white supremacy. I'm embarrassed when I see one, and disappointed that in 2015 we're still having this debate.

Trying to eradicate the confederate flag in all areas isn't going to work but I agree with Gameboy in that it should not be displayed in public areas.

It does seem to be on a downward slide of popularity though. Remember the scene in the Dukes of Hazard movie when the boys were stuck in Atlanta traffic and everyone who went by let them know that they were out of touch with the new PC reality all because their car had the flag on its roof.

SVreX, I just looked at your profile to see where you live. I spent a lot of time down in Albany, GA on boring business trips, and I regret not buying you a beer.

Good post, eloquently written.

We have become the kind of people who are satisfied that our busybodies in charge do something, anything when a bad thing happens. It does not matter in the slightest if that reaction makes a lick of sense.

The loser's flag should never have been flying over the winner's house (because surrendered, lost) but someone put it there 60 years ago - and taking it down now because a murderer had one on some item of clothing or liked it a lot or... who the berkeley knows... is like turning on the water because you are afraid of the dark.

I predict that every stars and bars that can be bought this week will fly off of shelves in the same way that talk of gun control sells guns.

Because we are, if nothing else, predictable.

In reply to SVreX:

Thanks. I have been pondering this subject and your perspective was educational.

nderwater wrote: Would you call the white hood of the KKK a symbol of our freedom? No, it's a symbol of racism and hate. I've lived in the south nearly my whole life. To me, the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of nostalgia for white supremacy. I'm embarrassed when I see one, and disappointed that in 2015 we're still having this debate.

I didn't say the Confederate flag was a symbol of freedom. I said the right to fly it is.

And I think it is pretty obvious the KKK hoods represent something different.

SVreX- Once again, you impress me. Well said.

What will become of the General Lee? Think of all those poor rednecks who will have to repaint their clones with the palmetto flag on top.

The OP pretty much said what was on my mind about the flag. I would also like to add that a racist, bigoted man failed to destroy the resolve of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in Charleston,SC. The response was not one of violence and lawlessness. “Lot of folks expected us to do something strange and to break out in a riot,” Rev. Goff said. “Well they just don’t know us. We are a people of faith.” He continued, “There is nothing we can not accomplish together in the Name of Jesus.” He mentioned the media and how reporters appeared to be perplexed by the families of the Emanuel Nine and their immediate willingness to forgive Dylann Roof. Rev. Goff provided them with an answer, “Well on this Father’s Day you ought to know the nine families’ daddy. If you knew the nine families’ daddy you would know how the children are behaving.” Amen brother! It's not a flag problem, it's a heart problem.

As many may know by now, that flag is not even the flag of the Confederate States of America, that's a battle flag (sort of). It's a bit like the contrast between this

and this:

You can imagine, being a Pearl Harbor veteran (or Pacific WWII), seeing Japanese Americans flying that flag or painting it on their car.

I do find it pretty strange how these things suddenly become untouchable when most everyone has been well aware of it for a long time (the "n" word is an example of this). I am sure the "fast" media of today has a lot to do with it.

As with many things, this is one of those "just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do something". Otherwise known as the source of a lot of seemingly unnecessary laws.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

They removed it from the capitol building in 2000 iirc, it has however flown over a Confederate Soldiers memorial that happens to be on the capitol's grounds ever since then.

Most of the outcry started over the fact it wasn't lowered to half mast like all the other flags the next day.....which iirc is probably due to it being padlocked in place without a provision to lower it.

The way I view all of these "outrages" immediately following tragedies is that they are tragedies in their own right.

In my neck of the woods, flying a rebel flag means you're "country".

"country" typically means you're a racist redneck.

I'm as Southern as you can get. I grew up in the South. My family still owns a Plantation on Edisto Island and has since before the war. I have an ancestor that was a surgeon in the Confederate army and I am sure other family fought in the war. My grandmother's maiden name Calhoun, my father's middle name is Calhoun, my son's middle name is Calhoun, my grandson's middle name is Calhoun. Yep, it's that Calhoun.

Personally, I don't and never have owned a Confederate flag, but for most of us in the South it truly is heritage. Get over it and move on.

While I am personally indifferent to the Confederate Flag and where and how it is flown, I have one statement to make that in unequivocally true.

The flag is not the problem. Mostly it's the people who think it is the problem, that are the problem. Look there for the hate.

yamaha wrote: ...it has however flown over a Confederate Soldiers memorial that happens to be on the capitol's grounds ever since then...

It is a bit like flying a Nazi Germany flag over the graves of WWII German soldiers though. It does symbolize what they fought and died for (obviously many, in both cases, did not).

I am of German ancestry (no relatives in the war as far as I know), but I would never consider using that flag as a symbol of German strength, or it's fight against unreasonable oppression (Treaty of Versailles).

aircooled wrote:

yamaha wrote: ...it has however flown over a Confederate Soldiers memorial that happens to be on the capitol's grounds ever since then...

It is a bit like flying a Nazi Germany flag over the graves of WWII German soldiers though. It does symbolize what they fought and died for (obviously many, in both cases, did not).

Was just going to say exactly this. It's still on public property, hardly any less berkeleyed up than being on the SC capitol building itself.

In reply to SVreX:

As a southerner I want to thank you for you trying to understand and gain a tolerance of what is done in the south. Although I truly believe you are still an outsider and missed some of the nuances. They are more subtle than a "bless your heart" after you said or did something. I am sure I will over think the explanation but please humor me.

I would like to speak on a few things before the southern comes out. As of this moment I know of no legal body that is trying to ban the displaying of the Confederate battle flag (The flag of the Confederate States of America is rarely flown). I know many states are in the process of dismantling and removing the flag from places of prominence in the state. This is perfectly legal and has nothing to do with the 1st amendment as the state is regulating itself. Businesses are also refusing to sell merchandise. Which is also not a violation of free speech.

The reverence or, for a simpler explanation for those not in the area, worship of Civil War era Southern Heritage is something that has grown in the last 30 years, after a small ebbing, with the influx of Yankees following work. The South and southerners as a group are proud of their accents, lexicography, manors, pomp and circumstance, rights of passage,and class-ism. The last is what is most prominent in the issue before us. The flags of the confederacy is looked upon as a symbol of all those things. Yes, the flag is the flag of a concurred nation of what can be considered traitors, but that isn't the focus. It is the representation of the southern culture. The issue is when that culture starts to focus more on one part and is embraced as symbol for the extremism and that one part. The battle flag has been fully embraced as a representation of a white christian nation. Class-ism at it's most basic. You have the land owners(Land owners are now wealthy business owners go down from there), the supervisors, the skilled labor and the help. The slave was the lower than all these classes. African Americans demanding free and equal rights upset this balance. Pushing and pushing to be a class-less society, or at the least, a society where the classes are not as clearly defined is something very upsetting to Southern culture. Even whites can marry "up" but they are still not the same level. The same goes for neuvo riche.

In the end the extremists that have embraced the battle flag have over whelmed the gentile nature that is what the confederacy meant to most southerners. And as is demonstrated in politics and religion, it is more difficult to change ones affiliation than it is to changes ones position. This leads to the natural evolution to where we are today. It is racism not for the sake of racism, but for the sake of knowing ones place. It doesn't make it any better, for predetermining ones worth based on appearance is still wrong on any level, but it does give some background. I, for example, in Southern culture never raised above supervisor. Never had the money and we had an entire generation that did not advance the family.

I guess to sum up. The flag is no longer the symbol it was, but has come full circle to what it was created by William T. Thompson to represent, but embraced by a different class and become region-less. That is sad, but like the south itself, it is time for change. Hopefully this will change with only minor backlash and in the very near future enable a coming together and healing the south never experienced in reconstruction.

Now if you can be so kind as to return my favor and instruct me on the social etiquette of the DC metro area. I would be much obliged.

knee jerk reactions...thats all this is. Look what happened with the most mediocre film ever: The Inteview.

teh sony said:

oh noes...the bad korea (not teh good one) is gonna be really angry if we show you guyz dis movie...so we are gonna not show you guys dis movie!

a month later in my Inbox:

Mr. Fury,

We think you'll enjoy a movie we've just added:
The Interview

Sincerely,
Netflix

my guess is that in 3 weeks, when theres a new rage of the day "crisis", the flags will be back on shelves in quasi-legitimate convenience stores in the bad part of town, the "laws" will be shot down, and the Republicrats will move on to banning shoelaces or drinking straws or whatever it is that they saw in a 6 year old picture in the facebook timeline of the new monster of the hour

Toyman01 wrote: I'm as Southern as you can get. I grew up in the South. My family still owns a Plantation on Edisto Island and has since before the war... for most of us in the South it truly is heritage. Get over it and move on.

'Most of us' meaning... white plantation owners? I'm not meaning to pick on you personally, nor your family, but to emphasize that for the millions of black people living in the south, the southern battle flag is a powerful symbol representing a 'heritage' only of oppression.

Toyman01 wrote: The flag is not the problem. Mostly it's the people who think it is the problem, that are the problem. Look there for the hate.

If the KKK wasn't still a real deal in small towns, I might agree with you. If police and emergency workers and courts and employers treated everyone impartially, I might agree with you. But I'm not blind to the racism I continue to see around me.

Personally I think the whole thing is nothing but more of the same PC crap that has been forced down our throats for years now. There are folks out there offended by the stars and stripes are we going to stop flying it as well? I know considering we are just giving up about every damn liberty we have maybe the new national flag should just be a plain white flag. Oh wait that might offend someone because its white.

Around these parts I see the ol' Gadsden flag being flown more than the rebel flag.

What about the atrocities represented by this flag?

In fact, there is nothing on this one that doesn't imply death. If we're going to start banning the sale of flags, we need to start here.

Woody wrote: What about the atrocities represented by this flag? In fact, there is nothing on this one that *doesn't* imply death. If we're going to start banning the sale of flags, we need to start here.

Nobody's banning the sale of it, just like the confederate/rebel flag. Try flying that on a ship and see what happens though

Edit: Actually I have seen a ship get away with flying this. The Jolly Roger, a local ship that's meant to look like an old-timey pirate ship and holds (held? Not sure if they're still in operation) pirate-themed parties.