What to do as a victim of odometer fraud?

This will be painful to resolve, and getting a refund from the seller is unlikely.  He will probably reply sue me or call a cop, good luck.  This should be a lesson to all of us because we tend to buy used cars at low prices which can lead to shady types.  Before buying a car, make sure to inspect the title and if out of state check for requirements to get title transferred.  I bought a truck with the wrong title, VIN was diffent because seller was selling 2 identical trucks.  Luckily the other truck owner found me and we fixed everything without pain.  Almost made a huge mistake last week, a car with Indiana R title, owner lives in VA and I wanted to title in PA.  Well Indiana titles require no notary stamp and all I needed was a bill of sale to get a PA title.  EXCEPT an out of state R title requires a special inspection.  If I bought the car and it needed further repairs to pass I would be stuck.   So for me the value of the car just dropped to parts car.  So glad I did all the research before buying.  

I've run into this a few times.  Bought a trailer in Arizona sight unseen.  Seller said Arizona used to need the title notarized but no longer does.  I stupidly didn't double check that.  Trailer shows up, I go to the DMV, they reject the title because it's not notarized.  Had to FedEx it to the seller, have him get it notarized, then sent back to me.

Next one was worse.  Bought a B6 S4 Avant off another Audi enthusiast in Salt Lake.  He signed the title.  I didn't look at the title closely.  Went to the DMV when I get home to title it, they point out that the guy the seller bought it from had signed the title, but then the guy I bought it from signed it too!  So now the title was worthless.  IE, the guy I was buying it from was trying to title jump it, he'd never put the title in his name.  Had I looked at the title closely, I would've told him to NOT sign it and I would've been fine. 

So now I have to track down the original seller of the car and ask him to apply for a duplicate title, sign it and send it to me.  Thankfully he was an enthusiast too and did it in short order.  I sent him a bunch of gift cards for that, because he really saved my butt from the fire there.  I was livid at the guy I bought the car from, but at the end of the day it was MY fault for not asking the proper questions and examing the title closely.

So you better believe that one of the first questions I ask now is "Clear title in YOUR name?"

docwyte said:

So you better believe that one of the first questions I ask now is "Clear title in YOUR name?"

Same here, not interested in being the person holding the bag because someone was trying to outsmart the system or whatever their excuse is. And yet there are some smart cookies out here who advertise vehicles with "clear title (not in my name)". Seriously?

Well, a couple of updates after the new year.

1. Reaching out to the seller is impossible because the day after the sale he deleted his FB account before they could contact him. So, no this definitely wasn't a mistake.

2. They filed a claim with the NC DMV like in the links Steve posted at the beginning.

I haven't researched it but I wonder if they could sell the car in SC by floating the title they have, since they don't notarize their titles down there. I know a couple of notaries, but I doubt they would want to get involved with this one.

In reply to AMiataCalledSteve :

People suck.

Do they not want to keep the car? If they do, I'd take it to a tag and title place (if they have them there), tell them I just bought the car and shut up. See what they say and/or ask for.  Don't volunteer any info.

The mileage issue would not bother me as the car is what it is at this point.

AMiataCalledSteve said:

Well, a couple of updates after the new year.

 

1. Reaching out to the seller is impossible because the day after the sale he deleted his FB account before they could contact him. So, no this definitely wasn't a mistake.

 

2. They filed a claim with the NC DMV like in the links Steve posted at the beginning.

 

I haven't researched it but I wonder if they could sell the car in SC by floating the title they have, since they don't notarize their titles down there. I know a couple of notaries, but I doubt they would want to get involved with this one.

3) is both illegal, and also unlikely to work.  SC will honor the title requirements of the state the title comes from, which in this case requires a Notarized seller signature.

AMiataCalledSteve said:

Well, a couple of updates after the new year.

 

1. Reaching out to the seller is impossible because the day after the sale he deleted his FB account before they could contact him. So, no this definitely wasn't a mistake.

 

2. They filed a claim with the NC DMV like in the links Steve posted at the beginning.

 

I haven't researched it but I wonder if they could sell the car in SC by floating the title they have, since they don't notarize their titles down there. I know a couple of notaries, but I doubt they would want to get involved with this one.

Some lessons cost money.  Big lessons cost big money.  Consider this a learning opportunity since it sounds like you are gonna take the L.  

There is probably stuff they don't want to know. 
 

If they transfer title, drive it, and choose to sell it sometime in the future, they have done nothing wrong. 
 

If they ask too many questions, research things like oil changes, confirm issues, become knowledgeable, and then DONT tell a future buyer, they are committing fraud. 
 

I wouldn't have reported it.  I would have transferred the title and enjoyed driving it without asking too many questions. 

In reply to SV reX :

It's hard to transfer a title that isn't notarized. I'm just trying to help them out by knowing their options. But yes, it's an ugly situation and I feel sorry for them. They don't have any extra money and they need this car for their family.

In reply to AMiataCalledSteve :

Understood. 
 

Any suggestions I may have might cross a line, so I will refrain.  Good luck. 
 

Anyone here a notary?

AMiataCalledSteve said:

Well, a couple of updates after the new year.

1. Reaching out to the seller is impossible because the day after the sale he deleted his FB account before they could contact him. So, no this definitely wasn't a mistake.

They don't have a phone number or address?  I assume that means they did the transaction in a parking lot somewhere and not at the seller's home.  Also, I would assume most states requires the seller to fill in their name and address on the title documents.  If all else fails they could simply try googling the person's name or using the White Pages website to see if they can get an address.

SV reX said:

I wouldn't have reported it.  I would have transferred the title and enjoyed driving it without asking too many questions. 

Kinda like adding '66 seat belt anchors to a '65

I guess we could turn this into a learning opportunity at the very least.  Any time I have bought private party I follow a pretty simple checklist, hasn't done me wrong:

• Talk to the seller in person, not just text or email.
  • You can get a good feel for them and you have a phone number.  Even if they block YOU they don't block every phone.
• Look the car over in daylight with good light, no rain, no darkness, not in a garage, not tired, not in a rush.  Take a friend with you to be the voice of reason.
  • Does the car come with everything in the ad?  Anything been removed like roof racks, aftermarket wheels, weathertechs, etc?
• If it is OBDII, at a bare minimum plug a code reader into it and see if it has any active or pending codes.
• Know the title transfer and licensure rules for the state the vehicle is bought from and being registered into prior to committing.  Clearly communicate this to the seller.
  • If the vehicle has an out-of-state title, make sure you know what it takes to transfer that title into your state.
• If it matters to you, get the VIN and run a Carfax/Autocheck prior to going to look at it.  Even if the Carfax comes back as clean, check it for discrepancies against the listing or the conversation you had with the seller.
  • At the very least, google search the VIN, never know what will show up.
• Confirm the title is free and clear or you have the lien release paperwork with the title.
  • Personal preference is clear title with lienholder stated as "none" vs lien release paperwork
  • If there is a loan on the vehicle, meet the seller at the lien-holding bank to transfer funds and get lien release paperwork on-the-spot
• Confirm the name on the title matches the seller's name
• Familiarize yourself with the common vehicle titles for your state, where to sign, who needs to sign, what information needs to be communicated, etc.  
• Check the VIN on the title matches the VIN on the dash and the VIN inside the drivers door
• Get both sets of keys, any keys to toolboxes, toppers, roof racks, etc
• Agree on payment terms before going to look at it.  
  • Cash? Cashiers check?  Wire Transfer?
• Always meet at the seller's house, not some random parking lot.  If the seller won't meet you at their house, meet them at a bank or police station.
  • TBH, not meeting at the sellers house is enough of a red flag I would walk away from some deals.
• Get a photo of the sellers ID, make sure it is current and actually them.
• Get a bill of sale with the title, even if your state does not require it.
• Confirm insurance rules with your insurance company prior to taking delivery.  
• If you are driving it home, what is your plan for temporary registration?

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

That's a good checklist.  I would add that my first question before even bothering to exchange phone numbers or anything is "Is the title free of liens, in your name, and currently in your possession?".  I got burned on a floated-and-not-notarized title once that the seller promised me they would take care of.  Fortunately it was a three-digit sum of money, so a fairly cheap way to learn that lesson.

At this point, the only course of action that I would know of would be to try to find the person in whose name the title is issued and get in contact with them.  Be prepared to offer them something for their time and be prepared to be the one that's going to have to do all the leg work (e.g., bringing a mobile notary to them).  I think that some states have a bonded title process where you might be able to put up a bond, put notices in the paper of record for some period of time, and then if no one comes forward asserting a claim on the title, you can get a real title for the car, but that's not an option in my state, so I don't know much about it.

wae said:

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

That's a good checklist.  I would add that my first question before even bothering to exchange phone numbers or anything is "Is the title free of liens, in your name, and currently in your possession?".  I got burned on a floated-and-not-notarized title once that the seller promised me they would take care of.  Fortunately it was a three-digit sum of money, so a fairly cheap way to learn that lesson.

At this point, the only course of action that I would know of would be to try to find the person in whose name the title is issued and get in contact with them.  Be prepared to offer them something for their time and be prepared to be the one that's going to have to do all the leg work (e.g., bringing a mobile notary to them).  I think that some states have a bonded title process where you might be able to put up a bond, put notices in the paper of record for some period of time, and then if no one comes forward asserting a claim on the title, you can get a real title for the car, but that's not an option in my state, so I don't know much about it.

Yeah good point.  I start all my ads with "Clean and Clear Wisconsin Title In My Name, No Loans or BS"

These are all excellent checklists and points, and pretty well match up to my standard car buying strategies, though the point about the seller's ID is something that I hadn't considered and will probably add to my routine. I wish that they would have called me before they went, but you're right, this is turning into a very quick (and unfortunately expensive) learning opportunity for them.

wae said:

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

That's a good checklist.  I would add that my first question before even bothering to exchange phone numbers or anything is "Is the title free of liens, in your name, and currently in your possession?".

I was interested in a car recently and asked that just to check, even though the FBM ad said clear title. The response was "Yes I have a clear title but I can't find it." So you don't...

In reply to AMiataCalledSteve :

Dang, that sucks. Sorry to hear that. 

• Get a bill of sale with the title, even if your state does not require it.

I would add that you should have the BOS notarized.  Some states require it if not sold/purchased on a dealership letterhead.  It also is another person verifying the buyer & seller are who they say they are.

EvanB said:

wae said:

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

That's a good checklist.  I would add that my first question before even bothering to exchange phone numbers or anything is "Is the title free of liens, in your name, and currently in your possession?".

I was interested in a car recently and asked that just to check, even though the FBM ad said clear title. The response was "Yes I have a clear title but I can't find it." So you don't...

Remember : FBM... "you can just go get one"  it's easy. Really. I didn't pawn it yesterday. 

docwyte said:

I've run into this a few times.  Bought a trailer in Arizona sight unseen.  Seller said Arizona used to need the title notarized but no longer does.  I stupidly didn't double check that.  Trailer shows up, I go to the DMV, they reject the title because it's not notarized.  Had to FedEx it to the seller, have him get it notarized, then sent back to me.

Transfers within AZ do not need notarized. You sign the title as seller, take the tag, and report the sale to AZDOT within x amount of time. I'm reciting this from memory, so I could be wrong:

1: Match the seller's ID to the name on the title. 

2: Verify the title is clear (noted on the title itself), and run against either AZDOT's title checker, or CarFax run recently. Apparently there are cases of people having a clear title, then getting a loan on a car, and selling a car with an outdated title that does relfect the lien. 

3. Go to https://azmvdnow.gov/ and fill out Sold Notice with buyers info. 

4. Remove the plate - I learned this the hard way when I got taken advantage of by a title jumper. 

Ironically enough, while looking up some of this info I discovered the vehicle I just bought from a large Honda dealer for $20k is having title transfer problems - its still shows up having a lien. 

pheller said:

docwyte said:

I've run into this a few times.  Bought a trailer in Arizona sight unseen.  Seller said Arizona used to need the title notarized but no longer does.  I stupidly didn't double check that.  Trailer shows up, I go to the DMV, they reject the title because it's not notarized.  Had to FedEx it to the seller, have him get it notarized, then sent back to me.

Transfers within AZ do not need notarized. You sign the title as seller, take the tag, and report the sale to AZDOT within x amount of time. I'm reciting this from memory, so I could be wrong:

1: Match the seller's ID to the name on the title. 

2: Verify the title is clear (noted on the title itself), and run against either AZDOT's title checker, or CarFax run recently. Apparently there are cases of people having a clear title, then getting a loan on a car, and selling a car with an outdated title that does relfect the lien. 

3. Go to https://azmvdnow.gov/ and fill out Sold Notice with buyers info. 

4. Remove the plate - I learned this the hard way when I got taken advantage of by a title jumper. 

Ironically enough, while looking up some of this info I discovered the vehicle I just bought from a large Honda dealer for $20k is having title transfer problems - its still shows up having a lien. 

Looks like Arizona stopped requiring titles to be notarized in September 2022. Any paper titles before that would have had a section for a notary and most (all?) states will not transfer a title that isn't completely filled out. Arizona will transfer older paper titles that aren't notarized but you might not have the same luck in another state. 

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I have no problem with adding '66 seatbelts to a '65.  Let's not pretend the rules allow it. I didn't write them, nor interpret them. 
 

I think it's time for you to move on from this. 

SV reX said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I think it's time for you to move on from this. 

Agree to disagree.