Whats with the shootings?

Conquest, I'd agree. Even if it was an elective course, I'm sure many parents would send their kids, guns in the house or not. Maybe include in that education pictures of people with their heads blown apart so kids don't think that a bullet is like getting a vaccine.

I would love to take Academi courses. I think it'd make me much more confident going overseas to do peace-corp related work.

rebelgtp wrote:

rotard wrote: The answer is to, obviously, mobilize the National Guard. You guys want us patrolling your communities with M4's,SAW's, 240B's and the like! Hell, nothing says "I'm safe" quite like seeing ma duece riding around!

That is the absolute last thing myself or anyone that lives around me would want. Though I would like to play with the ma deuce please.

It's for security, man. Only the government needs guns. A poster in this thread seems to think so. I may or may not be acting slightly facetious.

You guys are cracking me up.

Ok, here's the deal. Guns are tools. In the wrong hands, they can be deadly. Same thing with a car. Same thing with a hammer. My dad is in prison right now for killing someone with a hammer. Been there since I was 5, true story. As stated before, if someone wants someone else dead, it will happen using whatever. Dad's was more or less self defense, but he still sits in prison for it. Been there for over 28 years.

Oh E36 M3! I just thought of something. We could use Apaches for when someone like Pheller tells us that his neighbor is crazy and has an arsenal! We could just blow up the berkeleyer's house, then we wouldn't have to worry about risking lives investigating it! Brilliant!

In reply to yamaha:

It would only be wrong if you did not share.

In reply to PHeller: The reason we do not require "prescriptions" for a bullet is the same reason we do not require one for a big mac, cigarettes, or gas for your car, three things more likely to kill the average American than a bullet. Did you know that for the first time 45 years homicides (all types not just guns) have dropped off the top 15 likely to kill you list? When the so called "assault weapons ban" expired was there a massive uprise in gun related killing sprees? No there wasn't or the talking heads would have been screaming at the tops of their lungs.

Also if you think community guns at a gun club are the answer instead of personal property maybe we should apply that same logic to all property that could potentially cause harm. Basically you would own nothing because no matter what it is I am sure someone somewhere will find a way to harm someone with it. You are also forgetting the fact that the criminals will not just be handing in their firearms just because it is law. Obviously if they were concerned with the law they would not be criminals.

rotard wrote: Oh E36 M3! I just thought of something. We could use Apaches for when someone like Pheller tells us that his neighbor is crazy and has an arsenal! We could just blow up the berkeleyer's house, then we wouldn't have to worry about risking lives investigating it! Brilliant!

Nah, the collateral damage on the other houses in the neighborhood would be frowned upon.

Seriously though, let's ease off the heavy sarcasm just a bit. We've had a pretty civil conversation right now. Let's try to keep it civil.

I'm not racist, but believe in racial stereotypes.....what does that make me?

Someone who doesn't ignore statistics in the interest of being socially "acceptable." For shame.

Personally, I believe we'd have a lot less "angry white man" syndrome berkeleyers shooting up the place (or planning on shooting up the place) if everyone could put their big-boy pants on and give/receive a good ball busting like a berkeleying man; good-natured or otherwise.

I do think a gun safety course should be mandatory. I don't think that would've stopped either of the last two incidents.

There are some deranged people in the world. They're either going to shoot the place up, blow the place up, light it on fire, snap and beat someone with a baseball bat, etc, etc.

An armed society is a free society. Obviously, there are some very common sense limits to who owns what arms.

I don't know how this dude could've been stopped. Should he have been arrested for being a racist? Of course not. Did he tell a bunch of folks he was going to do this, and that sat idley by, or even encouraged him? Probably. Shame on them. Regardless, it's not the gun's fault that these poor people lost Mothers and Fathers, Brothers, Sisters, and children. It is a berkeleying tragedy.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

PHeller wrote: What happened to people just running off into the woods and becoming novelists?

They can barely write a decent manifesto before a shoot these days. I think a sequel to "Civil Disobedience" might be a little optimistic given the state of education today :)

So... we need better public education?

In reply to poopshovel:

+1.....most definitely.

In reply to rebelgtp:

Sure, why not. I'd still trade a 240b for a bar.....

PHeller wrote: Even using "the ability to protect oneself against the oppressiveness of government" is a bit of a stretch, as community owned guns, such as those owned by a gun club, would be a perfect way to arm the populace while keeping crazies from shooting up peaceful places of worship.

Perfect?

It's nice to know where all the guns are. Especially if you're not a nice person.

"Community owned guns" were what the British were after at Lexington and Concord, and what the Mexican Army was after at Gonzales, Texas in 1835. It seems that both governments felt that arms outside of central control might fall into the hands of undesireables.

rotard wrote:

N Sperlo wrote: In reply to PHeller: They are all inadequate. A vest just prevents some damage and covers some. I'm wearing one right now and when I'm off work, its just not adequate for civilian life. Mace and tazers are made to get away. That is all. A non-lethal defense. There is a reason certain guns are called, "the great equalizer." In addition, armor piercing rounds aren't hard to get. An AK47 round can hit me in the vest, probably not potentate it, but will still likely kill me. Armor piercing 9mm will penetrate without a problem.

Unless you have the plates in, you'd be lucky to have your vest stop 9mm FMJ.

I agree, bullet proof vests are extremely misnamed. They should be called bullet RESISTANT vests. Trauma plates help in very critical areas, but still don't stop anything major like an assault rifle round. The small .17 HMR will go through a vest because of it's size and high velocity. Same for the 5.7mm round. Again, if you really wanna kill someone, you'll find a way to do it.

We're missing a point too. Bullet proof vest doesn't protect your head, arms, lets, crotch, etc. Getting hit by a .45 will still break ribs and cause internal bleeding.

In reply to Conquest351:

And even most are going to be able to take maybe one or two shots before they are defeated.

What we all need as a nation is to heal through the power of crystal therapy and interpretive dance. Hugs? Anyone?

In all seriousness, not everyone is reasonable. A weapon forces unreasonable people to reason with you. You can use them to keep someone's "hugs" and "crystals" away from you.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: What we all need as a nation is to heal through the power of crystal therapy and interpretive dance. Hugs? Anyone?

Sure. I could use one today.

rotard wrote: In all seriousness, not everyone is reasonable. A weapon forces unreasonable people to reason with you.

Very good point.

I can't believe I am saying this...I agree with Poopshovel on something

Gun safety courses should be manditory. My personal experience was receiving one from a very heavy handed father that would accept no mistakes in this area as there should be none. This man also showed me the joy that could come from shooting and how much fun it could be all the while stressing the fact it is a tool that could kill. When I teach someone to use a firearm I always start with safety first. I was at a gun shop the other day when this subject came up. As we discussed it the shop owner handed me a 1911 to look at out of the case. First thing i do is drop the mag, it is loaded, next I clear the chamber of the round in the pipe and hand them to the shop owner. He was shocked the gun was loaded and was thankful I was the one to find out instead of someone else by firing off a round. True story.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: What we all need as a nation is to heal through the power of crystal therapy and interpretive dance. Hugs? Anyone?

Can I get my hug from Jessica Alba?

rebelgtp wrote: He was shocked the gun was loaded and was thankful I was the one to find out instead of someone else by firing off a round. True story.

Good Lord....

It scares me how careless folks can be with guns. I've been poked fun at for pointing an unloaded gun at the ground when handed to me. The owner says "no worries, man, it's unloaded" to which I responded "I don't go waving guns around, sir."

I bet if you flipped the legal status of alcohol and marijuana that most violent crime would be down to statistical noise.

The rest could be dealt with by law enforcement since they wouldn't be out drinking so much.

PHeller wrote:

rebelgtp wrote: He was shocked the gun was loaded and was thankful I was the one to find out instead of someone else by firing off a round. True story.

Good Lord.... It scares me how careless folks can be with guns. I've been poked fun at for pointing an unloaded gun at the ground when handed to me. The owner says "no worries, man, it's unloaded" to which I responded "I don't go waving guns around, sir."

It's your responsibility to check any firearm that's handed to you. Ultimately, anything that happens once a weapon is in your hands is your responsibility. I think more people should be exposed to firearms. Maybe it would cut down on the paralyzing fear a lot of people seem to experience when one shows up.

rebelgtp wrote: I can't believe I am saying this...I agree with Poopshovel on something Gun safety courses should be manditory. My personal experience was receiving one from a very heavy handed father that would accept no mistakes in this area as there should be none. This man also showed me the joy that could come from shooting and how much fun it could be all the while stressing the fact it is a tool that could kill. When I teach someone to use a firearm I always start with safety first. I was at a gun shop the other day when this subject came up. As we discussed it the shop owner handed me a 1911 to look at out of the case. First thing i do is drop the mag, it is loaded, next I clear the chamber of the round in the pipe and hand them to the shop owner. He was shocked the gun was loaded and was thankful I was the one to find out instead of someone else by firing off a round. True story.

Damn, good call double checking. I do it to, but usually before I hand a firearm to someone to inspect/play with.

I had my best friend who shot himself with an "unloaded" weapon. My mom called and said, "That is why I don't like guns". My response? "He should have double checked the weapon." I then hammered that message into my daughter's head. Every weapon, EVERY WEAPON is treated as if loaded. That bore isn't pointed at anything you don't want to put a hole in at least that large. She carries my shotgun out to the back to do some skeet shooting and she checks it immediately after I check it and hand it to her.

This is the type of safety and responsibility we should be teaching. There, it goes. Responsibility. We're not teaching and holding people responsible for their actions anymore. It's always got to be a product of society, or upbringing, or where they live, or they took our jobs, or they're brown, blah blahh. Holding people responsible for their actions needs to be enforced and instilled into people's heads. Sure, bad parents are going to screw up a kid. But they can get better. I'm a product of this. Not really BAD parents, but I had kind of a messed up childhood now that I look back on it.

rotard wrote:

PHeller wrote:

rebelgtp wrote: He was shocked the gun was loaded and was thankful I was the one to find out instead of someone else by firing off a round. True story.

Good Lord.... It scares me how careless folks can be with guns. I've been poked fun at for pointing an unloaded gun at the ground when handed to me. The owner says "no worries, man, it's unloaded" to which I responded "I don't go waving guns around, sir."

It's your responsibility to check any firearm that's handed to you. Ultimately, anything that happens once a weapon is in your hands is your responsibility.

Thanks pal, already know that. I took my safety course, twice actually.

In reply to PHeller:

True. Many can become careless. I will agree with you there. One of the things I teach is the gun always loaded. When you are handed a firearm always dop the magazine (if present or equiped and then clear and lock the action.

He was also grateful it was me and not someone that would have used the gun on himself and his wife then proceed to clear out his shop and register.

Conquest351 wrote:

rotard wrote:

N Sperlo wrote: In reply to PHeller: They are all inadequate. A vest just prevents some damage and covers some. I'm wearing one right now and when I'm off work, its just not adequate for civilian life. Mace and tazers are made to get away. That is all. A non-lethal defense. There is a reason certain guns are called, "the great equalizer." In addition, armor piercing rounds aren't hard to get. An AK47 round can hit me in the vest, probably not potentate it, but will still likely kill me. Armor piercing 9mm will penetrate without a problem.

Unless you have the plates in, you'd be lucky to have your vest stop 9mm FMJ.

I agree, bullet proof vests are extremely misnamed. They should be called bullet RESISTANT vests. Trauma plates help in very critical areas, but still don't stop anything major like an assault rifle round. The small .17 HMR will go through a vest because of it's size and high velocity. Same for the 5.7mm round. Again, if you really wanna kill someone, you'll find a way to do it. We're missing a point too. Bullet proof vest doesn't protect your head, arms, lets, crotch, etc. Getting hit by a .45 will still break ribs and cause internal bleeding.

I am wearing a level IIIA vest. It is bullet resistant, but not proof. My vest will take a heavy impact without allowing penetration. I've known people to be shot in the vest with 9mm ammo and not know until the adrenaline wears off. The number one seller shoots himself in the chest regularly to prove they work. The abilities are understated for insurance reasons.

Every shot, angle, bullet, and shooter is different. Some will penetrate.