When is it time to panic

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Exactly...  people are not considering that things were a lot worse in 1918 and 1919 and everything went back to "normal" (normal being what we were collectively used to five months ago)

Interestingly, I was reading some commentary about the US Merchant Marines, who suffered a higher casualty rate than any of the armed forces services, in part because of not taking Britain's advice about convoys until too late (sound familiar?), and in part because a lot of people on the eastern seaboard refused to honor blackout rules, which made it real easy for the U-boat commanders to see our ships, silhouetted against the cities' lighting.  So people refusing to give up a little comfort for a pressing need is certainly nothing new!

I heard about a report, that I cannot find, that talked about the huge increase in suicides in the San Fransisco area.  This seems to be a deadly trend that is effectively being ignored.  I am not saying I know exactly what they should be doing about it, but I would think they (local, national) should at least be not ignoring it (I haven't' been watching any briefings, so maybe they have?).

I also heard that one of the reason Florida is not an S-show (death wise) is that they put some serious effort into safe guarding the nursing homes, something NY apparently did not do well (something about returning sick to the nursing homes rather than isolating them).  I think it was pretty well know early on that older people where a major risk.

In reply to aircooled :

I've been saying this for a while. The mental side effects the lockdowns have had on people may be a longer lasting effect than the actual virus. When you struggle to find the good in a normal day and then have the world take all of it away and tell you deal with it it's for your own good, it's bad. Real bad. 

In reply to aircooled :

Yeah, New York looked at Italy which was hit the hardest, copied their strategy and killed off a lot of older folks. Seems like they could've known better, but that's a bit unfair of me to say with the benefit of hindsight. States that did not force infected elderly into nutsing homes have faired much better so far. 

In reply to aircooled :

That's Daytona Beach on Saturday, about 15 miles from my house. City officials revoked the permit for an event called "Orlando Invades Daytona," and... it went on anyway. By Saturday night there was complete gridlock on A1A paralleling the beach there, so people got out of their cars and started dancing in the street, leading to shootings and general mayhem. I will not be going anywhere without a mask, or anywhere I don't have to go, for a long time.

Margie

bobzilla said:

In reply to aircooled :

I've been saying this for a while. The mental side effects the lockdowns have had on people may be a longer lasting effect than the actual virus. When you struggle to find the good in a normal day and then have the world take all of it away and tell you deal with it it's for your own good, it's bad. Real bad. 

The pandemic response highlights a truth about mental health that will probably not change anytime soon: mental health almost always takes a backseat to physical health. Yet both lead to pain, injury and even death. Because mental health is harder to measure, or perhaps just overlooked, people will always focus on what they can see with their eyes, the physical.

People put on a brave face and ignore need for therapy, counseling or spiritual guidance. It works until it doesn't, and the lucky ones live through the sudden crash and get into treatment. But many don't live through it.

The good news to me is none of this is new so ultimately the treatment is the same. Gotta look out for myself and do whatever it takes to stay healthy, and don't pretend to be OK just because other people can't see anything wrong.

aircooled said:

I heard about a report, that I cannot find, that talked about the huge increase in suicides in the San Fransisco area.  This seems to be a deadly trend that is effectively being ignored.  I am not saying I know exactly what they should be doing about it, but I would think they (local, national) should at least be not ignoring it (I haven't' been watching any briefings, so maybe they have?).

I also heard that one of the reason Florida is not an S-show (death wise) is that they put some serious effort into safe guarding the nursing homes, something NY apparently did not do well (something about returning sick to the nursing homes rather than isolating them).  I think it was pretty well know early on that older people where a major risk.

Here's one article I saw that's related re: suicides outpacing Covid deaths

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8347011/amp/Doctors-California-say-people-killed-four-weeks-YEAR.html

So many people out of work.  In my county in TN we have had barely over 100 positive cases through all of this,  but many many more than that lost jobs, businesses bankrupt, etc.

Yeah, that's it.  It does make you want to do some math to see if the expected deaths from opening up to early will save more then we loose.  Here are some highlights:

'...we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks.'

In late March more people died in one Tennessee county from suicide than in the entire state from coronavirus, according to The Washington Examiner.

A study published in early May found at least 75,000 deaths could be brought on by anxiety and addiction to drugs and alcohol during the lockdown.

It comes after more than 500 doctors signed a letter to [the President] calling the state coronavirus lockdowns a 'mass casualty event' which were causing 'millions of casualties' from alcoholism, homelessness, suicide and other causes. 

The letter states that calls to the suicide hotline have increased 600 per cent, liquor sales have increased 300 to 600 per cent and cigarette sales have also increased.

It does run into some political intertwining, so you will need to read the article for that.

Pretty sure I was shamed 150 pages ago for expressing concern that the economic tragedy we were creating would have a devastating impact on mental health and suicide rates. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

That's because you had a different view than the masses wanted to believe or believed. It happens. I agree with you though. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Pretty sure I was shamed 150 pages ago for expressing concern that the economic tragedy we were creating would have a devastating impact on mental health and suicide rates. 

If you had, I missed it.

People have no idea what to do with respect to risk management, so this is an unfortunate effect.

see also: hoarding Thousand Island dressing because... reasons?  Or committing suicide because a rock star died?

"Getting back to normal"...

We will NEVER be "back".  There will be a new normal. 
 

A lot of people don't even realize it's already formulating.  We are developing the new normal right now.  If you've been WFH, you may not see it yet. Those of us who are essential workers are already seeing it.  
 

It's gonna be a hodge-podge.  Some people are very comfortable WFH, and will retain some of that. Some people have gotten back to work without change. Some people are fearful. Some wear masks. Some don't. 
 

Businesses are establishing new routines which will remain. Some make their staff wear masks and gloves. Restaurants have every other table blocked off. New protocols and procedures for everything. Businesses all have 6' markings on the floors.  Protective screens have been installed. Different hours. More security. Sanitizer by the 55 gal drum.  Some are realizing they can do their core mission with fewer employees. Working from home hasn't been so bad for some people, and some businesses will retain it, and reduce their capital investment in buildings and infrastructure. Churches are learning how to exist online.  Funerals are remote. 
 

There is a sense of fear. Not "run away, the sky is falling" kind of fear. More like when you are walking late at night in a bad neighborhood, and you aren't sure you can trust the people who are out and about.  Cross to the other side of the street, pay attention to footsteps.  Increase comfort zone from other people.
 

There is also a sense of frustration. It's hard to buy stuff. Supply chains are messed up. Businesses no longer  know how to herd customers through their spaces.

Its fluid, and changing.

This is not temporary. Welcome to the new normal. We are creating it right now as we live through it.

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Pretty sure I was shamed 150 pages ago for expressing concern that the economic tragedy we were creating would have a devastating impact on mental health and suicide rates. 

At least we know you don't hold grudges

I wonder how long we can keep this up ,  I  plan on wearing a face mask as long as it takes because getting a bad case would probably kill me ......

But  I know many people will not , and nothing I can do about that ,  except stay away from people , I only talked with 5 people over the long weekend , 

But 6 months from now  will every ones guard  be down ?  Will  2nd and 3rd waves be the new normal ?

As others have said  it gets real when someone close to you gets a bad case or dies , 100,000  people have died in the USA so it is real to their families .

Stay safe ,

In reply to californiamilleghia :

I would say for the over 20 million unemployed,  possibly closer to 30 million, it is very real to those families as well.

californiamilleghia said:

I wonder how long we can keep this up ,  I  plan on wearing a face mask as long as it takes because getting a bad case would probably kill me ......

But  I know many people will not , and nothing I can do about that ,  except stay away from people , I only talked with 5 people over the long weekend , 

But 6 months from now  will every ones guard  be down ?  Will  2nd and 3rd waves be the new normal ?

As others have said  it gets real when someone close to you gets a bad case or dies , 100,000  people have died in the USA so it is real to their families .

Stay safe ,

I see people carrying guns around, protesting, screaming in peoples faces, deliberately trying to scare people. Threatening to tear off your mask and spit in your face. Threatening employees of stores who ask them to wear masks. I honestly would not want to be around people like that even if there was no such thing as the coronavirus. 

I see pictures of people crowded into beaches. So what? I'm not a college student. I'm way too old for spring break. I'm not into that scene. 

I realize that a lot of my fellow countrymen are shiny happy people. Fine. I don't want to be around them. I will stay at home. Why do they want to get in my face? Why do they insist that I come out? I have seriously though of selling my street motorcycle because of the assholish aggressive driving where I live. I don't want to be roadkill. You make adjustments to your life. Look at all those idiots blocking traffic and shooting each other in Daytona Beach last weekend in one big drunken street party. I want no part of that. 

I will stay at home. I might take my dogs to the park on a slow night or take my car to an autocross or a race track limited to members of one of the car clubs I belong to. I might go out to a lake or a campsite where there are few people. But I won't go downtown. I won't go out to eat and I won't be going to crowded theaters. Streaming on the flat screen at home is fine. It would not surprise me if when all of this is over that private clubs will that go out of their way to exclude certain elements will be a much bigger thing. Maybe even members only stores and restaurants. 

It is more than just the virus. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

 

There is a sense of fear. Not "run away, the sky is falling" kind of fear. More like when you are walking late at night in a bad neighborhood, and you aren't sure you can trust the people who are out and about.  Cross to the other side of the street, pay attention to footsteps.  Increase comfort zone from other people.
 

That is exactly how I feel right now.  Well said.

Cotton said:

In reply to californiamilleghia :

I would say for the over 20 million unemployed,  possibly closer to 30 million, it is very real to those families as well.

The total number of applications for federal unemployment aid since shutdowns began climbed to over 40 million last week.

That's 1 in 4 American workers.

In less than 3 months, we've surpassed the cumulative numbers from the entire 18 months of the Great Recession

The CBO's outlook is pretty bleak, with expctations for additional layoffs as federal aid to businesses dries up and they can no longer afford to keep as many people on payroll

Cotton said:

In reply to californiamilleghia :

I would say for the over 20 million unemployed,  possibly closer to 30 million, it is very real to those families as well.

So I have to expose myself to the virus so some other guy can go back to work? I am of an age where I am at risk. No thanks. 

Just because the government orders all the bars and restaurants and barber shops open doesn't mean people will show up and get their credit cards out. You are going to have to convince people that it is safe to go out. Screaming and threatening and waving guns around is not the way to do that. Politicizing a virus is not the way to do that. 

In reply to Snowdoggie :

You are welcome to stay home. 
 

While there are certainly a bunch of morons out there, I don't think that the vast majority of the people that want to open things back up are waiving guns and threatening. 

At least around here, I know that as various businesses re-open their doors, people are showing up in droves.  Some bars across the river got warnings that they were too crowded and the salons and patios have been fairly busy.  Hardware stores have stayed pretty busy as well, so while not everyone is throwing caution to the wind and getting the credit card out, there are a decent number of people who are.

I'd flip your question around, though:  Business owners have to give up the businesses they built just so you don't get exposed to the virus?  Both of those positions live at opposite ends of the spectrum and instead of trying to solve for all of one or the other, the only way forward is to approach it the same we we approach every other aspect of life.  We need to employ a strategy where we accept the fact that this virus is going to continue to spread and some people are going to continue to catch it and some of those people are going to die, and every one of those deaths is going to be a tragedy beyond words.  So we need to do what we can to limit that while at the same time making sure that society can continue to function and people can continue to go to work, recreate, worship, and socialize.  Just like we make cars as safely as we can, we build rules and systems to regulate how those cars are operated, and we take reasonable precautions when we use or live around those cars.  There are still deaths, every one of them is a tragedy, but we understand that the mobility that we get from having the car is more valuable to society as a whole.

In reply to Snowdoggie :

Then I'll forward you my business address and you can start paying me to stay home since the state has told me to go berkeley myself with regards to unemployment during this time.

Not having money coming in while bills continue to pile up is a far bigger problem to me personally than the virus itself. If you're that at risk, why the berkeley are you going out anyway? That's not entirely directed at you, but at the number of clearly high risk people I see EVERYWHERE every single day. People in the 70s plus, grouping up, congregating, driving like children, that should be staying home and safe that aren't. 

To be fair, my county of almost 300k people has had less than 500 deaths even with the governor forcing infected old people to return to their personal care homes. I'm VERY surprised that the high amount of nursing homes and long term care centers in my area haven't been decimated. This does not help my utter contempt for the governor for continuing to keep the county closed at all. But because the Philadelphia region on the other side of the state is such a hot spot, all of us here in the western half need to suffer for the greater good our whatever. 

Snowdoggie said:

...Screaming and threatening and waving guns around is not the way to do that. Politicizing a virus is not the way to do that. 

To be fair, strict lockdowns and putting the country in huge debt / economic peril is also very much part of the politics.  That jab should be pointed both ways.

wae (Forum Supporter) said:

...Hardware stores have stayed pretty busy as well, so while not everyone is throwing caution to the wind and getting the credit card out, there are a decent number of people who are....

I can assure you (work related), hardware related stores have done VERY good business during this.

This is one of the big complaints.  Hardware, home improvement and some other large stores (e.g. Costco, Target etc) have been allowed to flourish in this environment while other smaller stores are being killed.  More of an unintended side effect really than malice I am sure, but still real.

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Snowdoggie :

You are welcome to stay home. 
 

 

I keep hearing people say this. But how are people supposed to do this? If your work opens back up, you are going to have to go back to work to make money. People that are in at risk groups shouldn't be forced to choose possible death.