When is it time to panic

In reply to bobzilla :

bob, that's exactly what you are advocating.  You point out that the losses are so low implying that they are acceptable, and that we should open back up.  I can quote if you like.  The opposition is to prevent people from dying- if you find shame in that statement, well, you are welcome to feel it- but it's a factual note- Covid19 kills people, and not preventing spread will kill people.  Is that not factual?

And one does not need to hunker down, one just needs to follow the best information as it comes by- which means if you want to go out, a mask is the best way to do it to prevent further spread.

Data shows that masks are effective in preventing spread, data shows that covid 19 wil kill people; data shows that preventing the spread will save peoples lives.  Data shows that distancing will slow the spread.  Data isn't polarizing, it's just data.  How you react to that can be polarizing.  

mtn (Forum Supporter) said:

Bob, 

I understand you're upset. I would be too. But can you please not take it out on those of us in this thread? I feel like you've escalated this in your response based on what is happening to you outside of this board. It makes rational conversation difficult. 

Call me out if I am interpretting this incorrectly.

Not trying to take it out on you, but it seems the other way around to me.  For example in the post immediately preceding this one.

Toebra said:

Not trying to take it out on you, but it seems the other way around to me.  For example in the post immediately preceding this one.

Interesting.  Alfa's post seems to be heavy on logic and data to me.  I don't see an issue with it.  Where do you see a problem?

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

ProDarwin said:

I think the reason they are still mandated in these conditions is that the droplets linger in the air for quite a while in indoor environments, and it is quite common for others to pass through the air you just exhaled shortly after you were there.  Plus, without a mask, when you exhale the droplets from your breath get on things that others touch.

 

You may be right in some instances, but most places are not mandated by regulation.  Most are guidelines established by businesses to try to limit their liability exposure.

The Feds have failed to pass anything that would protect businesses from liability.  Businesses are seeing this as a major hot mess coming down the pike, especially as it relates to OSHA and the OSH Act General Duty Clause.

The General Duty Clause says "Each employer shall furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to his employees.”

Since COVID is a "recognized hazard" and Feds have offered no guidelines or relief to this, businesses recognize that their liability could be huge.  A single case of a person becoming infected could lead to thousands of claims that the employer failed to "provide a place of employment that was free from recognized hazards".  This would be the death of almost any business.

So, businesses are enacting guidelines that at least look like they are making an effort (even if they have no actual guidelines, no medical knowledge, and no idea what works and what does not).

The purpose of the masks (and other measures) in many businesses is simply to provide an opportunity to document that they made an effort to protect workers.  If they don't, they liability could destroy the business.

 

Good information, well stated in a calm an non controversial manner. This forum is good at that... this thread, not so much!

I actually have to agree with almost all of bobzilla ‘s points; his attitude is deplorable. Totally takes away form what he’s trying to say. 

I too don’t care for the condescending and accusatory way a number of folks fire off - but cussing and being so openly hostile is only fanning the flame and inviting it. 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to bobzilla :

bob, that's exactly what you are advocating.  You point out that the losses are so low implying that they are acceptable, and that we should open back up.  I can quote if you like.  The opposition is to prevent people from dying- if you find shame in that statement, well, you are welcome to feel it- but it's a factual note- Covid19 kills people, and not preventing spread will kill people.  Is that not factual?

And one does not need to hunker down, one just needs to follow the best information as it comes by- which means if you want to go out, a mask is the best way to do it to prevent further spread.

Data shows that masks are effective in preventing spread, data shows that covid 19 wil kill people; data shows that preventing the spread will save peoples lives.  Data shows that distancing will slow the spread.  Data isn't polarizing, it's just data.  How you react to that can be polarizing.  

 

If there was a virus that was causing certain death to 50 year old white guys, I'd stay home. I wouldn't expect everyone else to stay home so I could go out. That's part of the issue. The other issue is saying this business can't be open, but this business can. This mass gatherings can't be held, but "protests" are fine.

can we all at least agree if you are driving down the road with a mask on, you look stupid? 

Steve_Jones said:

can we all at least agree if you are driving down the road with a mask on, you look stupid? 

Folks see that and say "well at least he is trying" and "its not hurting anything" but what it does do is imply to other sheepp'le that they should be doing it too, and pretty soon you are told you don't care about your fellow man, if you only wear a face covering when it will actually help.

03Panther said:

Steve_Jones said:

can we all at least agree if you are driving down the road with a mask on, you look stupid? 

Folks see that and say "well at least he is trying" and "its not hurting anything" but what it does do is imply to other sheepp'le that they should be doing it too, and pretty soon you are told you don't care about your fellow man, if you only wear a face covering when it will actually help.

I've been wearing a gaiter as a mask, I honestly forget about it when I get in the car- I just want to not be in pubic again. 

In reply to Mndsm :

I was more referring the the guy mentioned seen wearing a mask and plastic face shield in his car alone on hwy. doing 70mph. He didn't just for get (unless he was being a smart aleck - I know guys that would do that BTW, what are you referring to as a gaiter?

The guy I saw with face shield & mask on highway while alone with windows rolled up just looked like a regular guy in the slow lane. Wasn't looking to see reactions or anything, just driving normal.

I've seen Palm Tran bus drivers wearing face shields also, along with their mask (masks are required for all on public transportation here).

Was on I-95 today again and less people wearing masks in cars while driving with windows rolled up.  Local traffic still has a lot of people wearing masks while driving.

In reply to 03Panther :

I leave my mask on most of the day at work even if I'm driving alone. It saves time since I'm in and out to talk to people all day and I don't have to worry about it blowing out the window while I'm driving.  

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to 03Panther :

I leave my mask on most of the day at work even if I'm driving alone. It saves time since I'm in and out to talk to people all day and I don't have to worry about it blowing out the window while I'm driving.  

I talked to my boss on the phone earlier today and I was thinking "have you had a stroke - are you buzzed"...turns out that he's taking advantage of the COVID situation and the masks that have followed to get those internet based clear polymer braces; silver lining.

I'm thinking about doing it too as my upers are fine but my lowers have drifted because I never used my retainer after my braces came off.

I will leave my mask on in the car between stops when I'm running errands.  Like if I'm going to multiple stores a few blocks apart.  

It also is 0 inconvenience for me to wear so I don't care.  The relative frustration of looping it over both ears,adjusting it over my nose and chin, and particularly removing it generally involves my glasses coming off too make it so I would rather wear it for 15 min between stores then doff and don it.  

I don't wear it all the time when I am out in "public" (public being not on my property).  I Carry one but don't wear it when I am running or biking.  If I need to pass close to someone I will stop and ensure >6' is between us.  Same thing when I am walking on sidewalks.   This seems to be pretty consistent with the people in my circle who I know use masks in stores and when social distancing cannot be readily maintained.

03Panther said:

In reply to Mndsm :

I was more referring the the guy mentioned seen wearing a mask and plastic face shield in his car alone on hwy. doing 70mph. He didn't just for get (unless he was being a smart aleck - I know guys that would do that BTW, what are you referring to as a gaiter?

A neck gaiter; sometimes called a muff. Basically a tube of fabric worn around the neck that is long enough to be pulled up over your mouth and nose. 

I have found a bandana is comfy, but gets hot on a warm day.  I suspect a gator would be worse.

Ah, yes. I used them on motorcycles, back when I bought winter gear at hunting/ski shops 'cause cycle shops sold motorcycles and motorcycle parts! Back when sex was safe, and motorcycles were dangerous

I remember when "turtle-fur" was a new thing!

03Panther said:

Ah, yes. I used them on motorcycles, back when I bought winter gear at hunting/ski shops 'cause cycle shops sold motorcycles and motorcycle parts! Back when sex was safe, and motorcycles were dangerous

I remember when "turtle-fur" was a new thing!

For some reason that just made me think of when I used to ride sportbikes. I'd be able to just take off my helmet and leave on the balaclava.

Some good info from UC Davis on masks and transmission methods:

https://www.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/your-mask-cuts-own-risk-65-percent/

Some highlights:

We do know social distancing reduces the risk of transmitting the virus by 90 percent, and wearing masks decreases the risk by 65 percent.

Children are less likely — by half — to be infected if they are exposed, less likely to be symptomatic and less likely to have a severe case if they do get sick, Blumberg said.

“They appear to be less likely to infect others,” he said. “This is different from other infections like the flu when they are carriers. This appears to be much more of an adult disease. But children can still get sick and can still transmit it to others...

The part I found particularly interesting, in reference to going back into an office environment:

“The way to think about that is to think about smells,” Ristenpart said. “If the person on the other side of a cubicle or plexiglass is wearing perfume, eventually, you’ll smell it. The aerosol particles are small enough to travel on air much like aromas. That’s why air flow is so important, along with other actions like wearing masks and social distancing.”

I am not sure how you create a truly safe office environment.  You can have people wear masks all day, even while sitting at their desk, but that would SUCK.  Then you have to wonder about the HVAC system, recirculating everything... argh.

Be graceful of people wearing them in the car. They are probably just avoiding having to put them on and take them off over and over. It's fine.

In reply to aircooled :

I wear a mask at my desk and in the lab every day other than eating. It's fine.

aircooled said:

I am not sure how you create a truly safe office environment.  You can have people wear masks all day, even while sitting at their desk, but that would SUCK.  Then you have to wonder about the HVAC system, recirculating everything... argh.

 

I think you have to fundamentally change how the air flows, which is no easy task, unless its a simple as reversing the flow.

Recirculating isn't a huge issue to solve IMO.  I'm sure companies are working on or already selling in-line UV disinfecting systems so at least all of the virus will be killed out of the recirculated air.  Filters might have to be changed more often or something.

aircooled said:

I am not sure how you create a truly safe office environment.  You can have people wear masks all day, even while sitting at their desk, but that would SUCK.  Then you have to wonder about the HVAC system, recirculating everything... argh.

My company's approach to this is two-fold.  First, only one person in an office if it's a shared office.  Second, no more than 30% of total capacity of any given facility (we coordinate with a shared calendar for my small site).  Oddly, masks are not required, exactly, for reasons I can't quite understand.  Something about expecting everyone to be responsible adults about it and just wear the damn things when outside their personal offices.  Other changes have been the cafeterias are temporarily free and completely touchless.  Limited choices, pick it up and go.  Oh, and temp checks in the morning on the way in.  Fever is a lagging indicator but it's better than nothing and easy to check.

As I've mentioned before, these policies are informed at least partially by the 20 epidemiologists we have on staff (I had no idea...).  Since I don't even know what I don't know about infectious disease, I trust their judgement.  At last count, 24 out of 8500 employees had contracted COVID-19.  80% of us are in NoVa or the Boston area.  I work out of a 40 person site in NJ.  I've only been in for 1/2 day since March 15 IIRC.

The dashboard is not working properly but I believe we're seeing about 20% occupancy right now.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Retrofitting UV systems into existing ductwork is possible, but it will depend on the building.  Some buildings have easier to access ductwork than others. Most offices use plenum air returns as well, which could complicate the effectiveness of a UV system. Although that might actually simplify installation in many cases. 

The filters themselves are an entirely different matter. Filters fine enough to filter something as small as particles carrying viruses require more fan power to push/pull air through.  And typically these systems operate with more air changes than a typical office HVAC system.  For better or worse, these systems are something I live with every day in the pharma world.  These systems are expensive - by a level of magnitude more than generic office HVAC units. And are usually custom built to order with lengthy lead times.  

So far, I haven't heard of any projects pending addressing this sort of thing, but I am somewhat isolated right now working on a C-19 vaccine manufacturing project. I don't always hear about what other folks in my company are working on. I do know we have a few other related projects in process.  I'm just the electrical guy (bottom of the ladder), so I'm usually the last one to find out about anything... 

I work in a construction trailer right now - in a private 10x10 office as I type this.  The offices are set up for 3 people, but we are trying to limit them to two. Right now I'm alone, but I may get a new office mate in coming weeks.  But we may be able to coordinate so that we aren't here at the same time. I say "trailer" but it's actually ten 40' trailers joined together, so it's a decent sized building. 

Coincedentally, this article just popped into my email a few minutes ago regarding building HVAC.

You guys really need to quit licking doorknobs.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

This makes me less concerned, not more. I'm in the central-eastern half and people around me aren't dropping dead. We've been mostly open for almost 2 months with no mask mandate. Case numbers going way up but deaths are not...I'm gonna go way out on a limb and say that's positive news.

Streetwiseguy said:

You guys really need to quit licking doorknobs.

I dunno. Looks like all 12 Canadians are infected to me.