Guest Blog: An Open Letter to LGBTQ Car Enthusiasts

Cars and motorsports should be a place where everyone feels welcome. We have been saying that since our inception back in 1984. Toni Scott, a friend of ours, recently shared some feelings about that topic on the Trust in the Machine site, and with the permission of all involved we are amplifying those words here as guest blog.

Thank you.

David S. Wallens
Editorial Director

 

Words and Photography by Toni Scott

I legitimately tried to avoid writing about cars from anything but a general car enthusiast’s perspective. I want to hear and write stories about cars for people who enjoy them, because it is my first and foremost passion. But most car enthusiasts recognize that their favorite platforms are not developed in a vacuum - look at the Japanese muscle wars of the 90s leading to the development of some of the most beloved sports cars of all time, or the creation of the EPA and the oil crisis of the 70s reshaping what performance meant to an entire generation of Americans. Cars cannot exist without people to drive them, and the very design of our most favored or reviled vehicles reflects this.

More importantly, cars exist as a reflection of the culture they are born into. Radwood, the celebration of 80s and 90s cars and style, is a phenomenal example of this - the cars and culture, when put together, become more than the sum of their parts. The boxy designs and gridded, space-age tachometers are cool as their own phenomena, but when contextualized with the birth of modern computing and the bubble economy of Japan, they make sense in the grand scheme of humanity, and seeing how individual manufacturers decided to approach this on their own terms is its own fun.

And that brings me to the place where I write this article from. I have written once before about the intersection of identity and the car scene, and I have been told by many people that it resonated. I have always wanted to hear more queer voices in the car scene (and there are some fantastic writers out there already who inspired me, @dsgolson, @cdavies, and more among them), but I don’t really hear what I think needs to be said. And yet here I am - I am a trans femme car writer, and trying to be more visible by the day - not because I want to, but because I need to, to be authentic to myself and be able to sleep at night.

I truly need to write this. I am not trying to step into the role of spokesperson for the queer car community, but I want to write this to tell every single LGBT+ person currently scared of taking their pride and joy to a car show, or debating if they’ll be able to get support when their new project they’re eyeing inevitably breaks, that the community is - at its core - good.

For the vast majority of readers here who are cishet (that is to say, identify as the gender they were born as and heterosexual) and reading this - the car community only becomes a better place the more people participate. I can truly say from the bottom of my heart that I do not actually want to write this article. I wish it was an unspoken truth that people can feel like they can have a hobby and be their actual selves, but from experience, it is not. There are people who want to make us feel unwelcome, and I’m writing this because I think most of you - the majority of the population, and the majority of the car community - don’t actually want that.

I reach out here to my community specifically to try and relay a message of hope that we can indeed exist in these spaces. We just want to be a part of it in the same way everyone else is. Existence is currently fraught for us: “Safe spaces” have become a ridiculously memed-upon topic, yet leaving the house while visibly queer, and avoiding verbal or physical abuse for it is something that many of us have to consider for our own actual safety. The government in the United States treats us as a separate, lower, segment of humanity as a matter of general policy. We all know it, and it continues to embolden the terrible people to speak more loudly.

I don’t need to tell you that it will inevitably suck in some facets. There is a local muscle car show that features the models I grew up idolizing, and the owners are the people I grew up fearing. There is still absolutely a good old boy’s club element to car enthusiasm. After all, a car club where everyone acts like boomers is a 20,000 member strong Facebook group, and the speech patterns and arguments parodied will be recognizable to anyone that’s ever spoken to certain members of the older generation. There is a palpable fear of anyone even slightly differing from the normal demographics from their cliques.

But there are definitely groups that exist outside of that realm that are welcoming and open. We all have the same love of old cars at the core, and when you get past the blue lines flag folks and the “like it or leave” types, you find a plethora of accepting and fascinating enthusiasts. In my experience, the more esoteric spaces for enthusiasm are those that welcome us, whether it’s the forgotten bubble cars of the 80s at Radwood, or the smog-choked cars of Malaise Motors. Even without that though, I’ve found great local meets where I feel welcome. I roll up in an 80s shitbox with an “H” on the hood and that is the sole criterion for camaraderie. It doesn’t matter that I’m very different from the other owners, what matters is that we all preserved our own little piece of automotive history and we are proud of it.

And with that in mind, I encourage you, as someone who has been scared just as all of us have, to go out, meet some great people, and enjoy your hobby. You’ll encounter closed minded people as we do in all facets of life, but you will find so many great people you never dreamed you could find, because car enthusiasm is ultimately one of the best hobbies to exist. We just love our cars and we want to share them. It unites us more than a handful could ever hope to divide us.

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Comments
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frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
6/30/20 10:54 a.m.

I really don't care about gender or orientation. Share my interest in cars and the freedom they can offer I'll consider you a friend.  

Fair warning though,  I'm a racer.  Since weight is my enemy ( my body shape aside)  I care little about being civilized. I rip out the comfortable to lighten the load. It's loud because mufflers weigh a lot and cost a few horsepower.  

I don't seek ugly but beauty sure isn't a priority.  I prefer honesty  in my car shape and life.  Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder I'll enjoy an honest discussion  where others have different opinions and are willing to share those with me.  
ps you don't have to " win"  the discussion to have me respect your preferences any more than I expect to "win". 
 
Nor is it a requirement of a great depth of knowledge.  I'll be happy to answer  the most basic questions.  Or go in depth about many subjects.  
As far as I'm concerned welcome to our group. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
6/30/20 11:04 a.m.

I can generally say, from my experience in car shows and Cars and Coffee's, no one gives a flying F who you love...

...but if you show up with a something other than a Porsche engine in a Porsche, at a Porsche meeting... watch yourself. wink

I am of course in CA, which can be a bit "different", but I find in general, in all parts of the US, reasonable people, car people, just care about the car.

That said, there are a-holes in pretty much any group you can define, so always be aware of that.

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/30/20 11:16 a.m.

If I may quote a section that I think will resonate here:

"I can truly say from the bottom of my heart that I do not actually want to write this article. I wish it was an unspoken truth that people can feel like they can have a hobby and be their actual selves, but from experience, it is not. There are people who want to make us feel unwelcome, and I’m writing this because I think most of you - the majority of the population, and the majority of the car community - don’t actually want that."

 

I think that speaking generally, GRM readers, forum users, competitors, and fans are good people. It's not the people here who want to marginalize or keep people out. But it is an unfortunate fact that those people do exist, and it's important that we don't try to sweep it under the rug.

Welcoming and accepting those who are different from us is not only the right thing to do, it's crucial for our hobby to survive.

imgon
imgon HalfDork
6/30/20 11:52 a.m.

Thanks to the author for writing the article. My experience has been that in almost any group there will be people who are offended/bothered by almost anything, they are typically loudmouth, ill-informed people and should be ignored, usually easier said than done. The rest of us just want to share the hobby we love with other people. Between the cars shows and track events I go to I see more people that will go out of their way to help a fellow enthusiast. Did your show car overheat in traffic on the way into the show, I bet 20 people will stop and offer to help. I suppose that is the same for many different groups, motorcyclists stop and help each other, same with boaters.  Maybe if the general population got a hobby, we would all get along better?  I have never understood how one person's vehicle type/beliefs/habits/sexuality/etc can possibly allow for someone else to say to that their vehicle type/beliefs/habits/sexuality/etc is wrong or bad. Unless your hobby/belief/etc causes me harm what business is it of mine what you do in your free time. Seriously, it seems like now more than ever we need to stop looking at each other as different and see each other as fellow humans trying to get through their day just like us. Probably preaching to the choir here as we are a pretty open minded group. 

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/30/20 12:10 p.m.

Nice to see this-and that Aerodeck looks awesome.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/30/20 12:24 p.m.

I like Toni a lot.  yes

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
6/30/20 12:53 p.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) :

Look for Toni's Aerodeck in the August issue of GRM.

Matt B (Forum Supporter)
Matt B (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/30/20 1:06 p.m.

David & GRM - thanks for giving this content a platform.

Toni - welcome and hope you stick around the asylum.  Myself and I'll gander the vast majority here will back you up on your statements.  LGBT participation should be a non-issue, but I realize it isn't for some people.  For what it's worth, most of us don't tolerate that E36 M3.  

Also, I'd like to see a build thread on that Honda at some point.  That thing looks awesome.

Edit - David ninja'd me! Looking forward to the feature.

RPMChris
RPMChris New Reader
6/30/20 1:30 p.m.

David and GRM, congrats!

Toni, as the author of the SCCA's Welcoming Environment statement (2018) and Code of Member Conduct (2019), plus the recent Social Media & Logo Usage and Conduct Unbecoming a Member policies (2020), I'm pleased you shared your story as a car enthusiast. It all starts with respect. And as the proud father of a daughter who came out just a few years ago, I applaud your courage to live your best life and most honest and authentic version of yourself. It all ends with love.

Chris Robbins, Director of Member & Region Services, Sports Car Club of America.

mad_machine (Forum Supporter)
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/30/20 2:37 p.m.

No fear here, either from me not accepting you or to me not accepting you.  I am proud to know and love many members of the LGBTQ movement,  to me they are my brothers and sisters just like everyone on this forum us.  We all share this earth, we share our pride, our accomplishments, and our sadness and failures.  Anybody who says otherwise has a few issues of their own to work out.

Thank you for the article,  Unlike Matt I am going to welcome you out of the Asylum, there is a lot less crazy in here than out there in the "real world"

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
6/30/20 2:41 p.m.

Today I learned what an Aerodeck is.  That is so cool.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
6/30/20 2:42 p.m.

In reply to RPMChris :

Thank you for chiming in, Chris. And thank you, SCCA, for taking a stand. 

Earlier today I was talking with a friend from another sports car club. (True story: We all have this back channel arrangement where we discuss the world's affairs). He raised a good point: Can't picture how rough it would be to be considered an outsider to your favorite hobby. 

Thanks, everyone, for making this a more welcoming place. 

LopRacer
LopRacer Dork
6/30/20 6:29 p.m.

Yes, an Aerodeck....  Welcome and thank you for sharing.

OjaiM5
OjaiM5 Reader
6/30/20 8:21 p.m.

I am very thankful that Grassroots is a place where people don't attack one another and and very supportive of each other's project. It is a special place in that respect. We tend to not talk politics at the dinner table in favor or geeking out over cars / building stuff. I have a feeling that most people just want to be happy and have a good life, contrary to what we are told. It is awesome that GRM is a place for everyone. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/30/20 8:29 p.m.

Preach.  Inclusivity is a wonderful thing and I thank you for portraying it proudly.

As someone who has been described as 60% straight (but really, it's more like 82%), I'm glad to know that the support is there.  I never really felt excluded anywhere since I present as straight, but I always try my best to be inclusive of everyone equally.

Except Yugos.  berkeley Yugos. 

(I kid. You go on with your Yugo self)

Georges1991
Georges1991 Reader
6/30/20 10:04 p.m.

As someone who couldn't give a flying, well you know, what a man does in his own time, I do understand some people can be a lot less than welcoming.

 

That said, this specifically, is one of, if not the greatest online, print, and personal communities I've ever been a part of. None of the typical jagoffs, jerks, or the like you do find elsewhere.

 

I also think the prevalence of online anonymity has a lot to do with people getting targeted for stupidity. In person you'll find most of the loudmouths wouldn't dare say a word.

 

Anyway, you guys are all awesome.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
6/30/20 10:50 p.m.

I'm still distracted by that blue FD. 

msterbeau
msterbeau New Reader
6/30/20 11:12 p.m.

Goth Lolita outfit and an Aerodeck.  We are friends whether you like it or not.  :-)

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
7/1/20 6:29 a.m.

If you work in customer service long enough (probably a week is all that is needed) you find that most people are nice and maybe 10% of the population are complete wankers. Yet it's always the wankers you remember and who ruin your day. They are unavoidable.

All minorities need to remember this. The bulk of us don't care if you have preferences outside what is considered normal or if you happen to look different than the bulk of the local population. I've had car guy friends who confessed to being gay after knowing them for several years and I never had a clue. It meant nothing to me. And I think most people you'd actually want to be around are the same way.

Don't let the wankers bring you down.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/1/20 8:00 a.m.

I agree that the 10% wankers ofter pollute the pool for everyone, but it is up to all of us to hold those people accountable to decent social conduct in group activities. To me it's no different than when "that guy" makes a borderline racist joke, and looks around the group for acknowledgement.  Are you going to laugh along, or are you going to try to set the record straight?

Also, on the subject of "not caring" about others preferences, I believe that isn't going far enough if you're talking about an actual friendship.  When I make straight friends, I want to know about the things they are passionate about, including families, kids, work, etc. If I'm going to befriend someone from the LGBTQ community, I owe them the same consideration.  If it forces me into some unfamiliar topics, I will have learned and grown from the experience. 

RPMChris
RPMChris New Reader
7/1/20 9:42 a.m.

In reply to ddavidv :

I was with Southwest Airlines for over 20 years, and responsible for all customer service/hospitality training and internal messaging to employees. The reason SWA is so popular with its customers is their hiring, training, communication, and leadership development process. The reason SWA is a  perennial "Best Place to Work" is for the same reasons. Take care of your employees - show them through your words and actions that you really, truly care about them - and they'll take care of the customer with the same demonstration of "LUV." Yes, there will always be a small percentage of people you cannot please/satisfy. Don't focus on them, because it's highly unlikely you'll ever be able to win them over. Focus on helping those who are on the fence and always be genuine and make them feel welcome.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
7/1/20 9:43 a.m.
ddavidv said:

If you work in customer service long enough (probably a week is all that is needed) you find that most people are nice and maybe 10% of the population are complete wankers. Yet it's always the wankers you remember and who ruin your day. They are unavoidable.

All minorities need to remember this. The bulk of us don't care if you have preferences outside what is considered normal or if you happen to look different than the bulk of the local population. I've had car guy friends who confessed to being gay after knowing them for several years and I never had a clue. It meant nothing to me. And I think most people you'd actually want to be around are the same way.

Don't let the wankers bring you down.

That one deserves a second posting. I like to say that 10 percent of people are anti-social and 10 percent of them, violently so. My wife was a professional dancer, so most of the men in her working environment were gay. I went from confused, to angry, to accepting, to the point where the best man at our wedding was gay. Most straight persons are (were?) conditioned to think that their sexuality is right and everything else is wrong. If not given the opportunity to evolve, taught biases can worsen rather than go away. Fortunately, the younger generations seem mainly to understand  that to paraphrase Shelby Steele, what counts is not outward image, but the content of one's character.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
7/1/20 10:42 a.m.

So 20 years ago we a transgender person attend one of our events, they were welcomed like any other new person and they still attend to this day. Racers are good people.

sergio
sergio Reader
7/1/20 2:01 p.m.

Gurl you bring that Honda to the car show. The boys won't know who to admire, the car or it's owner. I like your wheels. 

wannacruise
wannacruise New Reader
7/1/20 8:26 p.m.

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written.  We car people are interested in cars. Making them unique, pretty, ugly, fast or different but its all about the cars.  You can come to any car group and do the same.  But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
7/1/20 9:07 p.m.
wannacruise said:

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written.  We car people are interested in cars. Making them unique, pretty, ugly, fast or different but its all about the cars.  You can come to any car group and do the same.  But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

You know......  LGBTQ folks aren't trying to force anything on you, nor are they coming to car events to "parade around" or demonstrate "particular habits" with their partner.

If you're at a track day or an autocross or whatever and you're feeling uncomfortable around someone, just keep to yourself.  I'm happy to help the folks who aren't the stereotypical "car guy" feel welcome.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/1/20 9:24 p.m.
wannacruise said:

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written.  We car people are interested in cars. Making them unique, pretty, ugly, fast or different but its all about the cars.  You can come to any car group and do the same.  But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

Translation:  come to car stuff but don't be yourself so I don't have to be uncomfortable 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/1/20 9:52 p.m.
wannacruise said:

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written. 

I think the rest of your post demonstrates exactly why the article needed to be written.

wannacruise
wannacruise New Reader
7/1/20 10:02 p.m.
MrFancyPants wrote: 
, just keep to yourself.  
That's my very point.
 
 
 

 

bigben
bigben Reader
7/1/20 11:21 p.m.

The great fallacy we keep seeing over and over again is the idea that we must agree or accept the ideas, behaviors, tastes, traits, preferences, opinions, lifestyles, etc. of others in order to get along with one another or welcome them into our circle of friends. Sure similar values and ideas may make it easier, but it's not mandatory.  You can disagree with without being disagreeable, and "disagree" does not automatically equal "hate."  I disagree with some of the values, beliefs, habits, and past times of many of my friends and some of my family, but that doesn't mean I don't value their friendship or love them as friends and family. Agreement is not a prerequisite to inclusion. Inclusion is about getting along, working together, playing together, serving together, etc despite our differences. 

It is sad that so many people are still stuck in a high school mentality deriving their own worth and the worth of others by the labels they wear: jock, prep, stoner, nerd, goth, racial labels, sexual labels, blue collar, white collar, elite, boomer, millenial, progressive, conservative, gear head, rice boy, and on and on.  The labels be dammed!  Who am I? I'm just me and I like building stuff.  Who are you? Tell me your name, tell me what brings you here. Leave the labels behind; they're not required for admission. 

Error404
Error404 Reader
7/2/20 8:05 a.m.
wannacruise said:

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written.  We car people are interested in cars. Making them unique, pretty, ugly, fast or different but its all about the cars.  You can come to any car group and do the same.  But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

A post like this is part of the reason the article was written. You can agree that everyone should be welcome and it doesn't cost you a thing. 

Matt B (Forum Supporter)
Matt B (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
7/2/20 8:20 a.m.

In reply to wannacruise :

I have to admit I'm a bit disappointed, but ultimately I'm glad you posted.  For a couple of reasons.  First, an echo chamber doesn't really help the discussion that much.  Widespread support for a concept is great, but silent minorities tend not to learn very much.  Second and more importantly, your argument is a great example of the problem at hand.  It is a thinly veiled denial of even the existence of LGBT people wrapped in a strawman argument.  What exactly do you think they're doing in public that you and your wife are not?  Being visible? 

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/2/20 8:20 a.m.

Humans like to label things. Not saying it's right, but it's what we do.

This quote is the attitude that needs adjusting with many people:

But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

It is tremendously sad that when some people think "LGBT" their mind immediately goes to sex and nothing more substantial. Yes, we have sex like you have sex with your wife. Get over it. We also have jobs, get married, have kids, buy homes, work on project cars, etc.

If we're looking for car events to be more inclusive, it's because we want to show up with our boyfriends, husbands, girlfriends and wives JUST LIKE YOU DO and have people treat us the exact same way that you expect to be treated. This is in no way "forcing personal living habits" on anyone.  This is simply me being me much as you are being you. When you show up to Cars & Coffee with your wife, does my mind immediately go to "wow I bet they have a lot of great times in the bedroom!" - jesus no. I probably want to learn her name, background, hobbies, interests, job, and so on because I recognize that she's important to you and should be included and made to feel welcome at these events. That's all we want and it's so sad that some feel this is simply too difficult or disgusting a request to honor.

I fail to see how a request for equal treatment is so hard to comprehend but there's always a few people with this useless, narrow, disappointment of an attitude. The great news is there is less and less room for it as society marches on.

-------

(Shameless plug: if you think equality is simple and LGBT+ folks should be encouraged to attend car events as their authentic selves, go follow Out Motorsports on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. Feedback is indicating we are making a difference with that exact mission, and the more support, the better.)

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
7/2/20 8:22 a.m.
wannacruise said:

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written.  We car people are interested in cars. Making them unique, pretty, ugly, fast or different but its all about the cars.  You can come to any car group and do the same.  But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

You do know you're that 10% they were talking about right?

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/2/20 8:25 a.m.

 

The great thing about cars is they're a universal language that can transcend all the labels, but "car guy/girl" is a label too.  I'm fine with that label, that's my label and I own it.  I have friends who are staunchly anti-car and think anything but public transit and bicycles is evil.  We get along just fine.  What we can't do is whitewash everything by taking away someone's right to own their own label.  You shouldn't have to  just shove yourself in a closet and go out and pretend you're not who you are, we as a society have forced this upon the LGBTQ+ demographic forever.  

Even if you don't agree with the labeL, LOVE AND ACCEPT THE PERSON AS A HUMAN BEING

Shadeux (Forum Supporter)
Shadeux (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/2/20 8:41 a.m.

I judge a person by how they treat people and animals. If you are kind and have empathy, then what you look like or do will not bother me.

I will call out someone's behavior that goes against this. You can't stay silent - that just implies it's ok.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/2/20 8:47 a.m.
wannacruise said:
MrFancyPants wrote: 
, just keep to yourself.  
That's my very point.
 
 
 

 

So that should everyone just keep to themselves, or just the ones that you think are "forcing" you to accept them?  Not sure what you point is.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
7/2/20 9:30 a.m.

All this time I never realized Nicole and I were "tring to force our personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace us and our habits!"

I'm really, really sorry everybody! We never meant to tell anybody to accept us as your equals or friends! Our bad! 

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
7/2/20 9:48 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

On the bright side, just by going somewhere together you are "prancing," so you can mark that off your bucket list.

Margie

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
7/2/20 9:54 a.m.

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
7/2/20 9:57 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Never saw that happening for you. Congrats!

Shadeux (Forum Supporter)
Shadeux (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/2/20 9:58 a.m.
Marjorie Suddard said:

In reply to Tom Suddard :

On the bright side, just by going somewhere together you are "prancing," so you can mark that off your bucket list.

Margie

Wait - now I'm confused. Are we "parading" or "prancing" when we go somewhere? My wife can confirm I do have particular habits, though! laugh

Daylan C (Forum Supporter)
Daylan C (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
7/2/20 10:17 a.m.

It's amazing to me that so many people can't grasp that people just want to be themselves when they go to do car things with their car friends. They aren't asking for much. Yet we still have to argue about it. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/2/20 11:37 a.m.
wannacruise said:

But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.

wannacruise said:
MrFancyPants wrote: 
, just keep to yourself.  
That's my very point.

Others have addressed your comment in more nuance than I will, but let me ask you this:

If the OP comes to the car meet in that awesome little black dress instead of Dad Jorts and some brilliant white New Balances, is that what you mean by forcing their personal living habits into the open?

If so, please stop forcing your acid-washed denim lifestyle on the rest of us.

 

wannacruise said:

I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.   

So maybe you should enjoy the damn cars and quit worrying about how other people dress.

 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
7/2/20 11:42 a.m.

Sad that we can't parade our preferences around at motorsports events anymore.

Even sadder we're probably going to lose that big ad contract from Tried Some Butt Stuff and a Ball Gag Once Just to Keep it Interesting Motorsport Engineering. The TSBSaaBGOJtKiIME crew are good folks.

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/2/20 12:50 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

Even sadder we're probably going to lose that big ad contract from Tried Some Butt Stuff and a Ball Gag Once Just to Keep it Interesting Motorsport Engineering. The TSBSaaBGOJtKiIME crew are good folks.

Hey man I'm not here to yuck your yum.

BA5
BA5 Reader
7/2/20 3:28 p.m.

Woooooo 3g prelude!!!

Matt B (Forum Supporter)
Matt B (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
7/2/20 6:29 p.m.

I love this place. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/2/20 6:54 p.m.
wannacruise said:

My opinion is that this article didn't need to be written.  We car people are interested in cars. Making them unique, pretty, ugly, fast or different but its all about the cars.  You can come to any car group and do the same.  But don't try to force you personal living habits into the open and then insist that everyone else is suppose to embrace you and your habits.  I don't come to car events or an public event and parade around demonstrating my particular habits with my wife.  I come to car events to enjoy cars not living habits.  You should do the same and you can enjoy the cars as much as anyone.     

You know, we all have habits that you don't know about that might make your blood boil or your skin crawl.  The fact that you place specific concern on this one is the very reason the article needs to be written.

I have known people my whole life and I find out that they are [insert something unsavory] and I don't really give it a second thought.  I value the important and meaningful exchanges we've had for the last 40 years.  If I discover that a friend I've known forever likes kiddie porn, I don't abandon the lifetime of memories and love we shared, I give him/her a pamphlet on why it's bad and illegal, then I bake a file into a cake when he/she is in jail.  That's what friends do.

I would hate to think that a pre-judgement about someone because of their sexual preference could instantly eliminate the possibility of someone becoming an enriching part of my life.  I don't judge you for your personal living habits.  Strange that you would judge mine, and strange that you would consider the mere existence of an LGBTQ person simply being present in public is equivalent to them forcing "you[r] personal living habits into the open and insist everyone else is suppose[d] to embrace you..."

Dude.  It isn't about you.  Unless you have an irrational fear of gays.  In that case, I have a pamphlet for you.

Daylan C (Forum Supporter)
Daylan C (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
7/2/20 6:57 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I happen to find pamphlets incredibly offensive and wish you would stop trying to force them on me. Thanks. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/2/20 7:00 p.m.

In reply to Daylan C (Forum Supporter) :

Don't forget, I have your address somewhere in my email.  I'm thinking a pamphlet shower would be fun. laugh

Daylan C (Forum Supporter)
Daylan C (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
7/2/20 7:08 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Somebody will forget to put them in the mail for about 4 months again. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/2/20 7:15 p.m.

I laughed out loud.

I totally deserved that.  Touche' my friend.  Touche'

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/2/20 7:51 p.m.
Daylan C (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Somebody will forget to put them in the mail for about 4 months again. 

Dude.  I have some little stuff I've been meaning to send to Curtis since the Winter Solstice.  Of 2018.

 

Georges1991
Georges1991 Reader
7/2/20 11:37 p.m.

I think having friends or people you know or whatever that DON'T think the same as you, act the same as you, etc. is a great thing. Life is too short to waste it hating, and raising your own blood pressure. 

 

I have my personal opinions, others have theirs. I have my way of living my life, others have their own. In my mind, it really doesn't make you any less or better of a man (Well i mean there are exceptions but you know what i mean). 

 

Perhaps someones lifestyle doesn't exactly follow the path of mine, but so what? If we have a common interest, and you're a cool dude, then we're buds. Like/Love whoever you want.. I'm not gonna not be cool with a guy because he happens to like guys. Go chase some man booty my guy. 

R56fanatic (Forum Supporter)
R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) New Reader
7/3/20 12:59 a.m.

Thank you for writing this.  It is honest and direct.

My oldest child is transgender.  It isn't her "personal living habit" or lifestyle choice, it is who she is.  It took a long time for my wife and I to get to the point where we understood, accepted, and embraced our child's true identity, but eventually we got there.  Along the way we realized that our child had to be incredibly brave to tell the world "this is who I really am."  It isn't a choice for her, it is who she is and to continue to deny it would have been far more painful for her.  Along the way she taught my wife and I a lot about acceptance and love. 

I also learned a couple of other things.  One, anyone under 30 doesn't care whether your gender identity matches the body you were born with, or what your sexual orientation is.  When she told her best friend in high school "never mind my body, I'm really a female," his response was "all your friends realized that a long time ago, we're still your friends."  Two, when I stopped avoiding the topic and just told people "this is who my child is" it was like dropping a huge weight.  And I found out that none of the people my age cared either.  One said "oh, my brother is gay and I was the best man at his wedding."  Others confided details about their aunt or uncle or some other family member.  That's when I realized I had been afraid of nothing.

I have participated in many on-line forums over the years, and I'm glad I found GRM.  It is by far the most supportive and encouraging community I have ever seen.  There's none of the nastiness that often occurs when people are anonymous behind a screen name.  Even before this discussion that was apparent to me, and I am pleased to see that the acceptance here has been overwhelming.  You're into cars?  Cool, that's all that matters.

My daughter is the kindest and most empathetic person I have ever known.  She has been incredibly brave to be true to herself and tell the world who she really is, and if someone else can't look at the person she is and instead makes judgements based on ignorance, well that's their problem.

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/3/20 11:25 a.m.
R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) said:

Thank you for writing this.  It is honest and direct.

My oldest child is transgender.  It isn't her "personal living habit" or lifestyle choice, it is who she is.  It took a long time for my wife and I to get to the point where we understood, accepted, and embraced our child's true identity, but eventually we got there.  Along the way we realized that our child had to be incredibly brave to tell the world "this is who I really am."  It isn't a choice for her, it is who she is and to continue to deny it would have been far more painful for her.  Along the way she taught my wife and I a lot about acceptance and love. 

I also learned a couple of other things.  One, anyone under 30 doesn't care whether your gender identity matches the body you were born with, or what your sexual orientation is.  When she told her best friend in high school "never mind my body, I'm really a female," his response was "all your friends realized that a long time ago, we're still your friends."  Two, when I stopped avoiding the topic and just told people "this is who my child is" it was like dropping a huge weight.  And I found out that none of the people my age cared either.  One said "oh, my brother is gay and I was the best man at his wedding."  Others confided details about their aunt or uncle or some other family member.  That's when I realized I had been afraid of nothing.

I have participated in many on-line forums over the years, and I'm glad I found GRM.  It is by far the most supportive and encouraging community I have ever seen.  There's none of the nastiness that often occurs when people are anonymous behind a screen name.  Even before this discussion that was apparent to me, and I am pleased to see that the acceptance here has been overwhelming.  You're into cars?  Cool, that's all that matters.

My daughter is the kindest and most empathetic person I have ever known.  She has been incredibly brave to be true to herself and tell the world who she really is, and if someone else can't look at the person she is and instead makes judgements based on ignorance, well that's their problem.

You and your wife are good parents. Every LGBT+ kiddo should be fortunate enough to have parents as accepting as y'all. Mine have been phenomenal from the start as well. Many are not so lucky.

And yes, it's worth repeating that this isn't a lifestyle or a choice. It's simply who many of us are. 

This is a great illustration that I've used at work (I run our LGBT+ employee affinity group in the DC office) to discuss how all of us identify in four distinct ways. I'd recommend everyone look at this and think a bit.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/3/20 12:30 p.m.

This Genderbread demonstration is PERFECT.

I'm proudly all over the board of those sliding scales.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/3/20 12:43 p.m.
R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) said:

Thank you for writing this.  It is honest and direct.

My oldest child is transgender.  It isn't her "personal living habit" or lifestyle choice, it is who she is.  It took a long time for my wife and I to get to the point where we understood, accepted, and embraced our child's true identity, but eventually we got there. 

Kudos on being the accepting parents you are.  I'm not a parent, but I would like to think I would be like this.  I think you can also give yourself a bit of grace here.  It may have taken you a long time to embrace her revelation, but from what I'm reading, it wasn't because you had a problem with being transgender.  I would think that it is simply a huge paradigm shift.  You would have been fine with whatever gender a kid ended up being born from day one, it may just be that you spent X years knowing one thing, only to find out it wasn't really true.  It sounds like you're OK with the transgender part, but maybe it's just the paradigm shift that caught you off guard.  I thought my house was built in 1901 until I did some flooring and found someone had put a penny in the masonry of the foundation.... from 1919.  It's not like I'm going to sell the house because it lied to me and it's not as old as I thought it was.  I still love it.  Don't care about when it was built.  Just caught me off guard.  The important part is that you are where you are because of your acceptance and grace.  Good job.

 

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/3/20 3:40 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

That's a really cool chart, thank you for sharing!

This whole thread has been mostly heartwarming. We've got a lot of nice folks here, and they're not afraid to tell the one shiny happy person why he's being shiny and happy.

I hope we all continue to be welcoming to everyone!

R56fanatic (Forum Supporter)
R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) New Reader
7/6/20 2:03 a.m.

Brake_L8 and Curtis73, thanks for your thoughts.  Yes, it was quite a paradigm shift, transgender was something that we could understand theoretically but when it was our own child it was tough.  What finally made the mental shift for me was thinking through the question of why would anyone "choose the path" of being transgender when it was guaranteed to be difficult.  That's when I realized it wasn't a choice or a lifestyle, it is instead a necessity to be true to yourself.  Once I realized that, acceptance and understanding followed. 

This isn't about me though.  Toni, thanks for writing an honest and direct letter.  You are a far braver person than I could ever be.

SavageHunter11
SavageHunter11 New Reader
7/6/20 11:38 a.m.

I personally don't care if your gay or straight, black or white, green or purple. If I am at a car show, HPDE, autocross, etc, I just want to talk cars. I have no problems with anyone or any sexual preference, color, or race being at a car show however with that said I also would be saddened to see activists make political statements at car shows and take away from what we are all there for, the cars.

Let me be the first to say, I don't disagree with anyone making political statements or protesting or whatever but I do believe there's a time and place for it and it's not at a place where most people go to escape all the hate and turmoil in this country currently. When I'm doing car stuff, all I want to talk about is car stuff....that's it. I'm not there to discuss political issues or do anything else. I don't go to a hockey game to discuss football and I don't go to a car show/event to discuss anything not car related. That's not to say that only gay individuals shouldn't make political statements at a car show, I mean I don't want to talk anything but cars. I love hockey (probably more than I should) but if I'm at a car show and someone wants to talking about how the Blackhawks (my team) are doing this season, I'd rather walk away because I'm here for the cars.

When it comes down to it, I think I'm trying to say that for myself (and I'm sure many others) cars are my escape from everything else in this world and while I have no issue with anyone who wants to be there, I want to keep the focus purely on cars. I don't have an issue with anyones personal sexual preferences or anyones race or skin color, I never have and never will.  I just don't want the issues of the world to seep into one of my last escapes. I suppose some might call this sentiment selfish, and in a way i suppose it is but it's not an escape for ONLY straight people, it's an escape for EVERYONE and I want to preserve that for everyone. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/6/20 12:09 p.m.
SavageHunter11 said:

I personally don't care if your gay or straight, black or white, green or purple. If I am at a car show, HPDE, autocross, etc, I just want to talk cars. I have no problems with anyone or any sexual preference, color, or race being at a car show however with that said I also would be saddened to see activists make political statements at car shows and take away from what we are all there for, the cars.

Simple question:  Does the OP showing up in a dress constitute "an activist making a political statement"?

 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
7/6/20 12:15 p.m.

I get annoyed when an organization says that they're open to all, yet makes a point to differentiate the group. For example, I've never understood having a ladies class in autocross - they're simply drivers. What can't women do on-track such it requires a separate class?

Our company periodically invites guests to speak on relevant topics. An announcement for an upcoming talk was for an astronaut telling of his experiences... good so far, but then the company felt it necessary to point out that he was African-American. WTF. Why? An astronaut doesn't have a color or gender.

Another announcement was for a talk about hiring equality between male and female engineers. The hypocrisy was that the announcement stated that the female speaker was "passionate about hiring female engineers." She was guilty of doing exactly what she was complaining about.

There's plenty of blame to go around though. A group will demand to be treated equally,  but then pulls the color/gender/race card whenever it suits them. Nope, if we're all just people, then color/gender/race doesn't exist, and cannot be used as an argument or classification point. And yes, I realize it may not happen for a very long time.

 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 12:29 p.m.

In reply to kb58 :

Yeah, but you also have a novice class. Similar to colleges using race and gender in admissions, there's "being blind to it" (which is always a lie btw, humans aren't blind), and then there's taking steps to acknowledge that there are differences between people and in general it helps everyone have more fun and feel more welcome if the folks who need a hand actually get one. 

No system is perfect, all systems can be abused. But you have a separate autox class to include people not segregate them. Why the heck did they ever start CAM?

ojannen
ojannen Reader
7/6/20 12:34 p.m.

In reply to kb58 :

The general idea is that the bias inherent in society means that attempting to serve under-privileged groups gets you closer to equality.  It is similar to the argument for affirmative action for college admissions.  Sorry for not selling you a house where you wanted to live and defunding the schools where you were allowed to live.  Here are 30 extra points on your SAT score.  People are attempting to help where they can even if they weren't controlling the real estate market 30 years ago.

Autocross ladies classes are a topic for a different thread.  On the surface, I agree they are pretty weird.  They serve a real, useful purpose even if it is narrow. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/6/20 1:13 p.m.

The Genderbread is great (there is a unicorn too that is also equally as well done). It's great to use to talk to your kids (or coworkers) about these things that may be hard to understand for those who are cis gendered.

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 1:16 p.m.

In reply to kb58 :

1) Ladies autocross class is a bit odd, but there is no requirement that they sign up for that class.

2) Seeing someone who is like you succeed is very, very helpful for younger people.  So seeing someone who is an amputee win in the olympics, a person of color become an astronaut, etc.

3) You don't get why this is, likely because you're a white male and therefore don't see the world the way they have.  In a perfect world, being a different color or gender or sexual orientation wouldn't and shouldn't matter when it comes to where you live, where you work or whom you socialize with.  Unfortunately in the imperfect world we live in, those can still matter and pointing them out in a positive way can help people see the bias and work towards eliminating it.

Recon1342
Recon1342 HalfDork
7/6/20 2:09 p.m.

Unpopular Opinion time-

I am a very religious person, and I adhere to a strict set of beliefs. At the top of those beliefs is one that trumps all others- I believe that God granted each of us the right to choose our own path in life. No matter what my thoughts on the matter at hand are, I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.
 

  The only thing I ask in return is that you respect my right to a belief different than your own. In my experience, this is where the disconnect lies in society- the notion that if someone disagrees with you, they are a hate-filled bigot. It's unbecoming of any American to act in that manner. 
 

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/6/20 5:28 p.m.
Recon1342 said:

Unpopular Opinion time-

I am a very religious person, and I adhere to a strict set of beliefs. At the top of those beliefs is one that trumps all others- I believe that God granted each of us the right to choose our own path in life. No matter what my thoughts on the matter at hand are, I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.
 

  The only thing I ask in return is that you respect my right to a belief different than your own. In my experience, this is where the disconnect lies in society- the notion that if someone disagrees with you, they are a hate-filled bigot. It's unbecoming of any American to act in that manner. 
 

I wouldn't think anything you said is unpopular, it makes sense.

To clarify - if you believe in a god, presumably the Christian God, then there is a belief that we are all created by this God and thus in his image, right? (I'm incredibly not-religious so please don't feel bad correcting or tweaking what I just wrote)

With that, it'd stand to reason that what all of us in the LGBT+ family claim is true, that this isn't a path we chose or preference or lifestyle, but simply a way we were made. Whether you think that's via DNA sequencing or however God did it or a mix of both.

I think those who are religious (or not, same deal) should believe whatever they want to believe. As you say, your belief system should not dictate how I live my life. Our country was founded on freedom from religion and there is a beauty in having real discussion with people who don't think the same as you.

That said, people who think differently than me are absolutely not hate-filled bigots! The people who believe that I'm trying to take a piece of their pie, when in reality I just want my own pie to eat that looks about the same as everyone else's, are the ones that I have a problem with. And I wouldn't put a blanket "hate-filled bigot" statement across all of those people, because many just need to have some frank, sometimes uncomfortable discussions to open their minds a little. 

The hate-filled bigots usually identify themselves and it's not just about LGBT+ topics. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 5:33 p.m.
Recon1342 said:

Unpopular Opinion time-

I am a very religious person, and I adhere to a strict set of beliefs. At the top of those beliefs is one that trumps all others- I believe that God granted each of us the right to choose our own path in life. No matter what my thoughts on the matter at hand are, I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.
 

 

i wish there were more people with your beliefs and less that hide behind religion to try and dictate how everyone else lives and loves

 

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 6:07 p.m.

There's bad hateful people in all groups but most car guys, or gals, or androgynous people or whatever you are just wanna wrench and enjoy their hobby and could give two hoots whether you like guys or girls or neither or both or whether you are a guy or girl or neither or both. And yeah some groups of car guys have more of those people like the comment about muscle car guys old boys club but most don't rly care in my experience. And yeah, maybe it's not a "safe space" but that's because it doesn't have to be. It's not about any identity or anything it's just about cars. I go to a car meet and I don't look at other people's sexuality I look at people's seriously cool ass cars, sexuality doesn't even enter the debate (unless I meet a guy or girl that I feel I'd really connect with/want to ask out but that's a bit tangential). You do you, love your cars, and if anyone wants to hate on you I'm sure you'll find ten other car people to back you up

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 6:09 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is perfect but so often there is some huge sweeping generalizations that it kind of needs to be said. Like us LGBT people are viewed as trying to force our beliefs on others when we aren't, and us christians are viewed the same (granted there is a vocal minority who do but). Or people who maybe don't agree on x or y are deemed nazis of hateful or people who dont agree the other way are deemed snowflakes and sjws and such. It's hard to find people with balanced views that account for everything

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 6:11 p.m.

In reply to SavageHunter11 :

You put this perfectly, thanks 

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/6/20 7:21 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is perfect but so often there is some huge sweeping generalizations that it kind of needs to be said. Like us LGBT people are viewed as trying to force our beliefs on others when we aren't, and us christians are viewed the same (granted there is a vocal minority who do but). Or people who maybe don't agree on x or y are deemed nazis of hateful or people who dont agree the other way are deemed snowflakes and sjws and such. It's hard to find people with balanced views that account for everything

I'm not trying to force beliefs on anyone. What I will relentlessly do is work to ensure I am viewed and treated legally and socially as 100% of the human being and citizen that I am. More bees are caught with honey than vinegar and I try to have conversation instead of simply telling someone they're wrong. Most will agree that basic equality is pretty silly to rally against if you are willing to have a rational conversation.

But yes, understanding that the most vocal and perhaps visible aren't representative of the majority is crucial to having such conversation in the first place. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 7:31 p.m.
ojannen said:

In reply to kb58 :

The general idea is that the bias inherent in society means that attempting to serve under-privileged groups gets you closer to equality.  It is similar to the argument for affirmative action for college admissions.  Sorry for not selling you a house where you wanted to live and defunding the schools where you were allowed to live.  Here are 30 extra points on your SAT score.  People are attempting to help where they can even if they weren't controlling the real estate market 30 years ago.

Autocross ladies classes are a topic for a different thread.  On the surface, I agree they are pretty weird.  They serve a real, useful purpose even if it is narrow. 

I can't believe that we still have this separation with any group.

We have pro football, and then there is an obscure women's football league.  Pro basketball, and then the WNBA.  It is assumed that these pro sports are for men, but we'll make a token women's league and everything is equal now.  For cripes sake, we still have Golf tees that are closer to the pin for women, as if women can't swing a golf club as well as a man.  I'm not even a woman and I find it insulting.

It's sports.  Just play it.  I don't care what flavor you are.

Same goes for any demographic IMO.  Don't care what you are, who you are, where you pee, who you worship (or don't) or what body bits you have.  I fully admit to being full of white-privilege unconscious bias, but I'm working on consciously becoming aware of it and scrubbing it.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/6/20 8:45 p.m.
Recon1342 said:

I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.

This should not be an unpopular opinion, although I'm sure it is among certain crowds (~30% or so of the country).  I wish more people shared this outlook.

Recon1342
Recon1342 HalfDork
7/6/20 9:30 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Recon1342 said:

I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.

This should not be an unpopular opinion, although I'm sure it is among certain crowds (~30% or so of the country).  I wish more people shared this outlook.

Okay guys, here's the shocker- I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or more commonly, Mormons). I face nearly as many misconceptions about my Church as LGBTQ folks do about their lifestyle. 
 

Being an active member of the church has gotten me some strange looks in certain circles, but I live my life according to the dictates of my free will, and I expect others to do the same. I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else currently on this earth. All we can do is improve ourselves a little each day. 
 

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 10:05 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

No you're are right we do deserve to be treated legally and socially as equals, but a there are some people who say/think that us trying to be treated equally is us forcing our sexuality on others when that isn't the case. And yeah most people are pretty great and not crappy and agree everyone deserves equal rights. I just think people need to be more aware of both nuance and other people's view and where they are coming from/how they feel.

 

Oh and if everyone could ride in a U2 spyplane people would treat each other a lot better:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-COlil4tos

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 10:07 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I think in sports like basketball it's to allow more access despite physical limitations. Most people will agree most men are bigger and stronger than women because testosterone is a hell of a drug. If everyone was in the same league only a small subset, if any, women would make it in. Case in point serena and venus were beat by the 500 ranked man.....and he was drunk. Separating them means more women can get a chance despite physical limitations.......

 

But in racing? It's not a terribly physical sport so I don't think that makes sense but yeah

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 10:07 p.m.

In reply to Recon1342 :

The last Elders you sent were tasty.  Please send more.  (totally kidding)

Some religions get a bad rep, but 9 times out of 10 it's the religion, not the followers.  And it's not even that the religion itself is specifically set up to be crappy, it's just that sometimes the net result of the best intentions ends up not having the desired outcome. I'm not saying Mormons are crappy, I'm simply saying that YOU PERSONALLY are not the reason people think a certain way about the LDS church.  I grew up UCC (protestant denomination) and I straight up left that church when they fired the pastor that I grew up with because he came out as gay.  I no longer wanted to support a business that fired someone who had dedicated 25 years of his life to the congregation in a perfectly Godly manner just because they learned something new.  If he had been an alcoholic, drug user, or skimming from the collection plate, they probably would have rallied around him with forgiveness and gotten him help.  But something that affected his ministry in no way whatsoever?  They couldn't have that. frown

The people were great.  I'm still friends with them.  The church rules just didn't allow it.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/6/20 10:18 p.m.
Recon1342 said:
ProDarwin said:
Recon1342 said:

I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.

This should not be an unpopular opinion, although I'm sure it is among certain crowds (~30% or so of the country).  I wish more people shared this outlook.

Okay guys, here's the shocker- I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or more commonly, Mormons).

Honestly, doesn't shock me in the least.  All of the Mormons I have met have acted similarly - very respectful, not openly attempting to dictate how others live, generally keep a low profile with regard to that, etc.  Now if you told me you were Southern Baptist after your last comment...

I don't want to derail this conversation into a discussion of religion, so I'll stop there :)

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 10:21 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I think in sports like basketball it's to allow more access despite physical limitations. Most people will agree most men are bigger and stronger than women because testosterone is a hell of a drug. If everyone was in the same league only a small subset, if any, women would make it in. Case in point serena and venus were beat by the 500 ranked man.....and he was drunk. Separating them means more women can get a chance despite physical limitations.......

 

But in racing? It's not a terribly physical sport so I don't think that makes sense but yeah

Slippery slope.  It's true that human women are on the average smaller and have less muscle mass because of their genetic and hormonal differences, but to say that most are that way, therefore they should be separate is the very thing we were talking about.... offering a separate thing to a different/marginalized community to give the appearance of equality.  Instead, I think it should be completely open and let things sort themselves.  I know there are plenty of women who would be just as good at being a linebacker, boxer, or anything else in sports as their male counterparts.  So in the NFL draft you open it equally to men and women.  Given the fact that women tend to be smaller with less muscle mass, you might end up with only a handful drafted, but it's because they are the best person for the job, not because they are female, and not because they should play in their own league because she's a woman.  Giving them their own league because they are women ignores the fact that there are some women who could do the job better than some men.  Making a separate league means they are excluded from those opportunities just because of their genes.  To me that is the epitome of exclusion.  "Most people like you wouldn't be good at this job, so you can't have this job."

Seth Green has a better chance of becoming a wide receiver than Ronda Rousey even though she would likely be far better in that job.  I don't think that should be the case just because she has XX chromosomes.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 10:29 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Slippery slope.  It's true that human women are on the average smaller and have less muscle mass because of their genetic and hormonal differences, but to say that most are that way, therefore they should be separate is the very thing we were talking about.... offering a separate thing to a different/marginalized community to give the appearance of equality.  Instead, I think it should be completely open and let things sort themselves.  I know there are plenty of women who would be just as good at being a linebacker, boxer, or anything else in sports as their male counterparts.  So in the NFL draft you open it equally to men and women.  Given the fact that women tend to be smaller with less muscle mass, you might end up with only a handful drafted, but it's because they are the best person for the job, not because they are female, and not because they should play in their own league because she's a woman.  Giving them their own league because they are women ignores the fact that there are some women who could do the job better than some men.  Making a separate league means they are excluded from those opportunities just because of their genes.  To me that is the epitome of exclusion.  "Most people like you wouldn't be good at this job, so you can't have this job."

Slippery slope indeed.

The Crossfit Games have equal payout for men & women as well as equal amount of broadcast time/etc.  If you reduced it to just "who is best" ignoring sex, you would have almost* no women in the games, ever.  So now the girls would get zero money, zero coverage, etc. instead of equal pay, equal coverage.

I think having Men's & Women's divisions makes sense.  I would think football would be very similar, except that currently women do NOT recieve equal pay & coverage.

 

*I put this here to cover my statement in case there is a woman who could qualify among the men, but given what I have seen that is not possible.

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 11:46 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Prodarwin said it very well. While this seems great in theory, in practice it would lead to very very very few women involved, if any. So what about women who really do want to play, and would do great with other women, but are genetically and physically too small to play against a 200 pound 6'4" guy. It, IMO, would lead to only a few genetically abnormal women getting in and they would have to work twice as hard for the same thing, which would get very discouraging, and even then it's hard to overcome said limitation....back to that serena and venus example. I feel like there is no good answer though because a separate, like you said, is very exclusive and does sort of say, what you said, that most people like you wouldn't be good at it so you can't have the job, BUT, at the same time, having a single league and then most women don't get drafted or get don't get in anyway and there's only a couple in the league would also be kind of exclusive and discouraging to women and girls, and they'd probably get upset as well

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 11:47 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Regarding not getting equal pay and coverage: Well I don't think they bring in the same amount of money though, so how could they get the same pay? I mean even in the NFL payments vary by how good you are and the revenue you bring in.......

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 11:51 a.m.

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class? 

Just asking. devil

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/7/20 12:06 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class? 

Just asking. devil

Until a woman shows up and mops the course with you...

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 12:13 p.m.
Duke said:
Snowdoggie said:

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class? 

Just asking. devil

Until a woman shows up and mops the course with you...

 

They all run in the mens group where the competition is.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 12:15 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Regarding not getting equal pay and coverage: Well I don't think they bring in the same amount of money though, so how could they get the same pay? I mean even in the NFL payments vary by how good you are and the revenue you bring in.......

They don't bring in the same amount of money because that's the way the system is.  And the system is that way because they don't bring in the same amount of money.

I know little about the NFL, NBA, etc. and have no idea what the answer to this is.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/7/20 12:40 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:
Duke said:
Snowdoggie said:

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class?

Until a woman shows up and mops the course with you...

They all run in the mens group where the competition is.

My club only has open classes.

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 2:16 p.m.

I remember that RMVR used to have a ladies group so that married couples could share a car, or unmarried couples for that matter. 

It was a vintage club so things weren't all that competitive. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 3:03 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:

It was a vintage club so things weren't all that competitive. 

I always find it amusing when clubs where people aren't that competitive have all these extra classes.  If you aren't that competitive, why does classing matter?

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 3:55 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Snowdoggie said:

It was a vintage club so things weren't all that competitive. 

I always find it amusing when clubs where people aren't that competitive have all these extra classes.  If you aren't that competitive, why does classing matter?

If you are driving an XK120 or a Gullwing Mercedes you really aren't interested in swapping paint with the car next to you. It was more like a rolling car show. The Midget and Spitfire guys might have actually been pushing it a little harder. There were still plenty of parts for their cars in the wrecking yard back then. 

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 5:17 p.m.

In reply to Snowdoggie :

I mean...... I suppose

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 5:18 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not really, it's because viewers don't watch/want to watch them as much. I mean no offense to female players but the NBA is much more fun to watch than the WNBA

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 5:42 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not really, it's because viewers don't watch/want to watch them as much. I mean no offense to female players but the NBA is much more fun to watch than the WNBA

WNBA Salaries are E36 M3 so the players can't train full time and focus on training and being more awesome.  And because of that maybe the game isn't that good.  And because of that it doesn't bring in the $.  And because of that, their salaries are E36 M3.  Full circle.*

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some viewers who will always claim that women are less interesting to watch.  Those are probably the same douchebags that make claims like "girls" aren't funny and don't watch comedies with female leads.

Disclaimer:  I haven't watched a sportsball game in probably > a decade, nor do I care to.  

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 5:45 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:

If you are driving an XK120 or a Gullwing Mercedes you really aren't interested in swapping paint with the car next to you. It was more like a rolling car show. The Midget and Spitfire guys might have actually been pushing it a little harder. There were still plenty of parts for their cars in the wrecking yard back then. 

Sorry, had autox on the mind.  Yes, for track stuff it makes sense to keep similar performing cars together.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 5:48 p.m.

I actually thought this thread was going to be about Ru Paul's Drag Race being filmed at Gainsville Raceway next year. 

tremm
tremm New Reader
7/8/20 9:56 a.m.

Be gay, don't be gay, idc. Show up & run what you brung. Try to fit in to the community & find something you can offer to better it.

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/8/20 1:17 p.m.

WNBA Salaries are E36 M3 so the players can't train full time and focus on training and being more awesome.  And because of that maybe the game isn't that good.  And because of that it doesn't bring in the $.  And because of that, their salaries are E36 M3.  Full circle.*

That is possible. I think it's a chicken and egg thing. Maybe it's worse because they get paid elss or maybe they get paid elss because it's worse. I don't know if one or the other is correct. However, it only bring in $25 million ot the NBA's $7.4 BILLION. And I think we can both agree the WNBA will never be the phenomenon that the NBA is whether that's becasue they are worse or because they are paid less and that makes them worse

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some viewers who will always claim that women are less interesting to watch.  Those are probably the same douchebags that make claims like "girls" aren't funny and don't watch comedies with female leads.

ALWAYS being the keyword there. Thinking that the WNBA is less interesting to watch isn't douchebaggery, thinking that ALL female sports and anything a women does is less interesting is, but me thinking the WNBA is boring doesn;t make me a douche

Disclaimer:  I haven't watched a sportsball game in probably > a decade, nor do I care to.  

Lol fair enough

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/8/20 1:18 p.m.

In reply to tremm :

You don't even have to fit in as long as you don't try to hurt the community or be a dick

bruceman
bruceman Reader
7/9/20 9:02 p.m.

I tried reading through the Open Letter a few weeks ago but stopped because I felt uncomfortable. Came back to it today to challenge myself and read through it. Most motorsports events I attend are with old white guys like me but I welcome diversity and will seek out  and introduce myself. This will take courage on my part but is what I can do to cause change 

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/10/20 12:59 p.m.
bruceman said:

I tried reading through the Open Letter a few weeks ago but stopped because I felt uncomfortable. Came back to it today to challenge myself and read through it. Most motorsports events I attend are with old white guys like me but I welcome diversity and will seek out  and introduce myself. This will take courage on my part but is what I can do to cause change 

Thank you. Every little bit helps. 

I'm gay and rather uh... heteronormative? and was uncomfortable around people who have more flamboyant personalities than myself, for the longest time. Talk about a journey of self-acceptance! I was also a little uncomfortable around trans folx until I made friends with several. That discomfort came from having a lot of questions (which were solved via Google and one awesome late-night chat with my one friend) and the obvious concern of slipping up on pronouns (or name, in one case of a high school friend who transitioned recently). If you're not sure on pronouns, you can always ask - that's a respect thing, not an embarassment thing. 

And keep in mind, we're all here for the cars and competition and whatever else. Just perhaps with an occasional loud yassss honey coming from across the paddock ;-)

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/10/20 2:24 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

 

nobody has ever been insulted when i have asked "may i ask what your pronoun is?"

 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
7/10/20 2:38 p.m.
bruceman said:

I tried reading through the Open Letter a few weeks ago but stopped because I felt uncomfortable. Came back to it today to challenge myself and read through it. Most motorsports events I attend are with old white guys like me but I welcome diversity and will seek out  and introduce myself. This will take courage on my part but is what I can do to cause change 

Thanks for posting this. 

SavageHunter11
SavageHunter11 New Reader
7/13/20 2:12 p.m.

In reply to Duke :

Nope, I couldn't care less. I'm there for cars. It's when the poster boards and chanting groups show up that I start drawing lines. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/13/20 3:06 p.m.
SavageHunter11 said:

In reply to Duke :

Nope, I couldn't care less. I'm there for cars. It's when the poster boards and chanting groups show up that I start drawing lines. 

Then we should both be cool with the OP, because near as I can tell, there was no mention of demonstrations.

 

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