Out Motorsports Creates a Space for LGBT+ Racing Enthusiats

Story by Scott R. Lear • Photography by Kevin Adolf

Many people take their first step into motorsports through one of their community circles. When a Ford Mustang owners group or a university SAE club shows up at their first autocross or track event, there’s an obvious synergy. Jake Thiewes of Arlington, Virginia, created Out Motorsports specifically to lend a hand to members of the LGBT+ community who are looking to explore their enthusiasm for cars and racing but don’t know how to get involved.

I’ve been into cars since I was a little kid,” explains Jake, who cites his early obsession with Matchbox cars and reading the makes and models off trunk lids in traffic. As a teenager, he never really found a way to get hands on with motorsports, but when he attended James Madison University in Virginia, he found that the fine arts clubs like band and chorus weren’t holding his interest.

A visit to the clubs and organizations office pointed him in the direction of Madison Motorsports, and he instantly felt at home. “I was driving my mom’s Ford Escape, but the club was super friendly. They went karting, autocrossing, mountain rides–and you can ride along even without a car,” he says. “It rekindled this fire I had and brought it to a full roar.”

He saved up his money the following summer, negotiated a small loan from his parents, and bought his first sports car, a 1995 Mazda Miata. In 2008 he began volunteering with NASA Mid-Atlantic, where he worked flagging, grid, timing and starting.

He drove, too, and while climbing the NASA ladder from HPDE to Time Trial, his Miata lost a few engines. In 2013 he switched to an E36-chassis BMW M3. Soon after, he nosed the BMW into the wall at VIR, so he went whole hog on transforming the car, stripping the interior and adding full safety, suspension and brake systems to compete aggressively in Time Trials.

Along the way, Jake realized that his joyous experiences with motorsports needn’t be unique. “I came out when I was 19,” he says. “I was met with zero resistance, zero issues. Everyone, from my parents to friends to colleagues, were super supportive. I got into working more NASA events, meeting more people in the LGBT world, and being more comfortable with myself in that world. There are no real venues for LGBT representation in the motorsport world.”

Given his own experience of being guided toward his school’s Madison Motorsports club, Jake decided that he wanted to help other potential enthusiasts in the LGBT circle find their place in the many motorsport venues across the country. “That [motorsports] environment has typically been viewed as very conservative, even good-old-boy, but that’s not really the case,” he explains. “We were met with nothing but positivity. I brought boyfriends to the events, and they were met with open arms. If you show someone that it’s okay to do it, they can see it’s okay. If one person shows up as their whole self, we’ve succeeded.”

In 2016, Jake and his colleague Tyler Longmire secured the outmotorsports.com domain and seeded the site with M3-related writeups that Jake had been posting to the Madison Motorsports forums. In the years since, Out Motorsports has grown to five regular contributors and covers all facets of the motorsports community, from autocross and rally to road racing, motorcycles and even towing and logistics advice.

A visit to Out Motorsports reveals a well-organized car enthusiast site, with hands-on reviews, event recaps and regular updates. “My whole mission is just to share our adventures,” notes Jake.

If it keeps growing, that’s great,” adds Tyler. “I was invited to join our local auto press association and connected with other journalists in the D.C. area. I’ve been working with different automotive OEMs and their PR departments, making partnerships and going down a lot of different paths with press cars for review.”

Motorsports is a great equalizer,” he continues. “Everyone is there for that one common factor: We want to go fast and we want to do it the right way. It’s such a diverse group of people, from the guy with the million-dollar motorhome and the GTS3 on the back to the Neon that somebody drove to the track. There’s diversity in backgrounds, diversity in types of people. If we can help perpetuate the reality of what this sport is, we’re making a difference.”

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David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 2:29 p.m.

And that car showed up in my FB feed this morning. 

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 2:40 p.m.

Now with nearly 40 more torques thanks to a replacement CPS. Kevin really is the man for building and diagnosing and getting power out of things and I'm happy to entrust the purple pavement eater to him.

We saw some great response from this article in print so thank you David, Scott, and others for making it happen! Glad to grow the community little by little. Shameless plug to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube if you're so inclined! Lotta fun stuff queued up for 2020. And for those interested in spreading the love, we have some neat stickers for sale that look great on your car or toolbox. T-shirts coming soon courtesy of a friend and fellow GRM'er.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
3/12/20 2:52 p.m.

The entire content of the article aside, the color of that M3 is fabulous.

yesyesyes

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/12/20 2:53 p.m.

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 2:53 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 :

Kevin rules. And, ironically, I have him on the other line right now discussing that Merkur seen in the bottom of the photo....

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 2:54 p.m.
Duke said:

The entire content of the article aside, the color of that M3 is fabulous.

yesyesyes

It's just Mopar's Plum Crazy, a la Dodge Charger/Challenger. Best $500 I've ever spent on that car. It more or less glows in the dark and I love it.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 2:55 p.m.

Love seeing those Mopar colors being used. It's like the British Racing Green of purple, if that makes any sense. 

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 2:55 p.m.
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

Do it! A lot of people don't understand the trans community and I think are nervous to ask questions about what it is and/or terminology. Education and a sense of "it's okay to be wrong and ask whatever question" goes a long way! 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/12/20 3:09 p.m.

Maybe it's just me but I don't care AT ALL what a person's sexual orientation is. I never have. I just assumed everyone liked cars.

We're all Gods people in my eyes. Hell, just look at my screen name!

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
3/12/20 3:14 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't care AT ALL what a person's sexual orientation is. I never have. I just assumed everyone liked cars.

We're all Gods people in my eyes.

Unfortunately a lot of people do care, and are willing to hate or exclude people from stuff because of it.  
 

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 3:16 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't care AT ALL what a person's sexual orientation is. I never have. I just assumed everyone liked cars.

We're all Gods people in my eyes.

A lot of people think similarly, which is great. Cars and motorsports are both great equalizers, though a lot of people seem surprised that LGBT folks are into all of this. Same deal with women being into cars, wrenching, racing, etc and not just trophy girls. GRM also seems to be a pretty good crowd of "live and let live, and also embrace" sort of people, which isn't always the case.

And for those who are supporters or "don't care" - your advocacy and allyship is very much appreciated. There's a lot going on politically/socially that can weigh on folks in the community, and the conversations and active support are appreciated.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/12/20 3:20 p.m.
Patrick said:
ebonyandivory said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't care AT ALL what a person's sexual orientation is. I never have. I just assumed everyone liked cars.

We're all Gods people in my eyes.

Unfortunately a lot of people do care, and are willing to hate or exclude people from stuff because of it.  
 

A lot? I've literally never met a single one. (And I'm as Conservative and Right as anyone I know.)

I guess I'd have to see proof of all these bigots congregating at events before I'd agree with you. I guess I can take your word for it but I've never seen it and I'm 50 years old so I've been around.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 3:21 p.m.

In reply to ebonyandivory :

I don't care, either, but I do support groups that welcome those who might otherwise feel unwelcome. 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/12/20 3:24 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

No one should be left out for something as trivial as this stuff. I agree.

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa HalfDork
3/12/20 3:26 p.m.

In reply to ebonyandivory :

They generally dont stomp around crowing about how much they hate The Other, but they are definitely around.

Hate is a subtle thing as well as a glaringly obvious thing

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
3/12/20 3:27 p.m.

I will only get mad at you, because you are faster than I am and therefore I am jealous..  crying

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 3:27 p.m.

Without getting all "he said/she said," I have friends who are gay, trans, non-binary, etc. Yeah, I have heard the stories. And the snickers behind their backs. 

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 3:30 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:
Patrick said:
ebonyandivory said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't care AT ALL what a person's sexual orientation is. I never have. I just assumed everyone liked cars.

We're all Gods people in my eyes.

Unfortunately a lot of people do care, and are willing to hate or exclude people from stuff because of it.  
 

A lot? I've literally never met a single one. (And I'm as Conservative and Right as anyone I know.)

I guess I'd have to see proof of all these bigots congregating as events before I'd agree with you. I guess I can take your word for it but I've never seen it and I'm 50 years old so I've been around.

There's a lot going on at the federal level that continues to try and keep us unequal in the eyes of the law. Here's a great Twitter thread detailing how things have gone the last few years. It's hard when some claim to be supportive and "everyone is equal and great and I love them all!" and turn around to vote to keep you considered "lesser" - I do have friends who do and have done that.

Not trying to let this totally devolve into political discussion but I am more than happy to discuss things in more depth via PM.

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 3:35 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

I will only get mad at you, because you are faster than I am and therefore I am jealous..  crying

More gas, less brake, with a dash of iced coffee and 2000s Britney Spears hits. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 3:36 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 :

So it's the Britney Spears that's the secret sauce, huh? 

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
3/12/20 3:39 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:

A lot? I've literally never met a single one. (And I'm as Conservative and Right as anyone I know.)

I guess I'd have to see proof of all these bigots congregating as events before I'd agree with you. I guess I can take your word for it but I've never seen it and I'm 50 years old so I've been around.

"A lot" is impossible to agree upon. But I will say that there are a number (As in more than zero, while still way less than 100%) of car guys that are uncomfortable around and try to exclude LGBT+ people. As Wallens, says, there are the snickers, the snide comments, etc. Amazingly enough the car culture is not immune from the bigotry of society at large. It's almost like car people are regular people. At 43, I've seen plenty, and so either you've been extraordinarily lucky or you've just not noticed it when it happens around you.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 3:43 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

And I'd say the opposite is true, too, as I have seen lots of welcoming people. Like you said, It's almost like car people are regular people.

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 3:44 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Brake_L8 :

So it's the Britney Spears that's the secret sauce, huh? 

Watch people walking around downtown or at a mall. The Straights walk to the tempo of Closer by The Chainsmokers and gay men walk to Toxic by Britney. It's just science, really. ;) 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 3:45 p.m.

I have like zero gaydar. 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/12/20 3:47 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

Well, like I said earlier, I'm very Conservative. I was a personal trainer running a private business for 15+ years and a good 50% of my clients were gay or lesbian. I must be unique to this whole thing then. because no, I've never seen it even with my eyes wide open.

Im going to politely excuse myself from this conversation because I'll never not firmly believe that the only way to be accepted is to not act like you're part of a different group. 
 

I'll end this by saying I'm glad these individuals are feeling accepted in the car community. That's never a bad thing.
 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 3:47 p.m.

But I do have some rad buttons on my backpack. smiley

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 3:59 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:

In reply to dculberson :

Well, like I said earlier, I'm very Conservative. I was a personal trainer running a private business for 15+ years and a good 50% of my clients were gay or lesbian. I must be unique to this whole thing then. because no, I've never seen it even with my eyes wide open.

Im going to politely excuse myself from this conversation because I'll never not firmly believe that the only way to be accepted is to not act like you're part of a different group. 
 

I'll end this by saying I'm glad these individuals are feeling accepted in the car community. That's never a bad thing.
 

Really appreciate the perspective. 

Does "don't act like you're part of a different group" apply when I show up to VIR in a few weeks with my boyfriend and introduce him as such? What about my friends who have higher-pitched voices and are naturally more effeminate but still want to show up in the car world? Humans naturally love to put labels on things (and people) and even if we show up "just as ourselves" and not explicitly labeled as gay, queer, lesbian, trans, whatever... we do get talked about behind our backs and not always in a positive manner. 

But yes, we do generally feel accepted and hope to inspire others to come as their whole selves to events in this community. Just important to acknowledge thaat stereotypes exist for a reason, whether they're often seen or not.

eastpark
eastpark Reader
3/12/20 4:04 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

And that car showed up in my FB feed this morning. 

Great article, and there's a lot of win in this photo!

McDesign
McDesign New Reader
3/12/20 4:04 p.m.
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

Uh - Manual or automatic?

 

Forrest in Atlanta

dyintorace
dyintorace PowerDork
3/12/20 4:09 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Brake_L8 :

Kevin rules. And, ironically, I have him on the other line right now discussing that Merkur seen in the bottom of the photo....

Awesome story. And love that GRM is promoting this! Given how cool the mag is, it is not at all surprising.

As for the Merkur, is it the same carbon fiber one that popped up recently in a for sale thread somewhere?? 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 4:12 p.m.

In reply to dyintorace :

It might be as Kevin recently purchased it. He shared some photos earlier today. Yeah, it's totally mental and magazine material. 

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 4:25 p.m.
dyintorace said:
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Brake_L8 :

Kevin rules. And, ironically, I have him on the other line right now discussing that Merkur seen in the bottom of the photo....

Awesome story. And love that GRM is promoting this! Given how cool the mag is, it is not at all surprising.

As for the Merkur, is it the same carbon fiber one that popped up recently in a for sale thread somewhere?? 

It is from what he told me. It's super cool and weighs next to nothing.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
3/12/20 4:29 p.m.

holy flares.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa HalfDork
3/12/20 4:30 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 :

Oh sweet baby jesus.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 4:32 p.m.

Yup. So sneak peek here, sports fans. 

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/12/20 4:34 p.m.

Okay, can I sign up for a ride-along in that thing? surprise laugh

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 4:37 p.m.
slowbird said:

Okay, can I sign up for a ride-along in that thing? surprise laugh

Appointment only, it sounds like. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
3/12/20 4:47 p.m.
Brake_L8 said:
Duke said:

The entire content of the article aside, the color of that M3 is fabulous.

yesyesyes

It's just Mopar's Plum Crazy, a la Dodge Charger/Challenger. Best $500 I've ever spent on that car. It more or less glows in the dark and I love it.

It's awesome!

 

snailmont5oh
snailmont5oh Dork
3/12/20 5:09 p.m.
Brake_L8 said:
Fueled by Caffeine said:

I will only get mad at you, because you are faster than I am and therefore I am jealous..  crying

More gas, less brake, with a dash of iced coffee and 2000s Britney Spears hits. 

I can personally attest to the fact that "Fight For Your Right" by Beastie Boys is worth a second and a half on a 60 second autocross course. 

snailmont5oh
snailmont5oh Dork
3/12/20 5:15 p.m.
Brake_L8 said:
dyintorace said:
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Brake_L8 :

Kevin rules. And, ironically, I have him on the other line right now discussing that Merkur seen in the bottom of the photo....

Awesome story. And love that GRM is promoting this! Given how cool the mag is, it is not at all surprising.

As for the Merkur, is it the same carbon fiber one that popped up recently in a for sale thread somewhere?? 

It is from what he told me. It's super cool and weighs next to nothing.


 

Is that a drift car?  It seems to have a *lot* of steering angle (not that that's a bad thing).

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
3/12/20 5:21 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

I have like zero gaydar. 

I have gaynar.

It's like sonar, I can hear it.

If someone says "I'm gay" then I know, otherwise I'm completely oblivious.

 

bigdaddylee82
bigdaddylee82 UltraDork
3/12/20 5:26 p.m.

I can't be the only ones who clicked, expecting a spec Miata class? cheeky

Put me in the, doesn't understand why this needs to be a thing, doesn't really care that it exists, but sad some shiny happy people make others feel they need their own special label, category. Now shut up and race!

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/12/20 5:39 p.m.

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

It's only a "thing" because some people would prefer for it to not exist. If everyone was accepting, then we could just go about our business and not call attention to it. But when some people are prejudiced against us, there has to be pushback with positive representation of it. In other words, so that the next teenager struggling with their identity can see people like them on the track, and they won't feel as scared about being judged or discriminated against for who they are.

Daylan C
Daylan C PowerDork
3/12/20 5:52 p.m.

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

I feel like the goal is to try to show people in that community that they are also welcome in ours. It's more for them than us.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/12/20 5:55 p.m.

In reply to slowbird :

Exactly. And I don't think this is an LBGT+ "thing," either. If you've been marginalized, you tend to seek outlets that are, let's say, more welcoming: My wife regularly participates in all-women bike rides, we support Orlando Girls Rock, I'm a member of the Jewish Auto Writers Association, the $2000 Challenge regularly welcomes the CARib Motoring Club.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa HalfDork
3/12/20 6:05 p.m.

In reply to jj :

I've yet to meet anyone that disagrees with a "lifestyle" to the point that I know that they disagree with it that hasn't been motivated by hatred at some level.

If I don't know that they disagree, if they keep it quiet and inside then its no business of mine.  If its obvious enough for me to know, its never been because of some neutral reason.  At that point it needs to be confronted.

I'll never stand by and watch some innocent person be dismissed because of someone else's hangups.

 

FWIW, its not a lifestyle.  Its a life.

Stampie
Stampie UltimaDork
3/12/20 6:30 p.m.
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

You know I understand painting trans colors but shouldn't you do it on something more likely to finish high instead of a Ford?

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/12/20 7:28 p.m.

In reply to Stampie :

How about a Lincoln? cheeky

ChrisLS8
ChrisLS8 Reader
3/12/20 7:48 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

I have like zero gaydar. 

My Uncle had been gay most his life. Being a fairly closed off person most had no idea he was. hell the family didn't even know he married his husband until about 2 years before he passed away. 

Some people its obvious straight away and some you would never know

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/12/20 7:48 p.m.

So a few follow-up thoughts... love the chatter and really, discussions like this are what the world needs more of. Productive and respectful. Thank you.

Not sure where the "lifestyle" comment came in, maybe the original comment went missing but yeah... not a lifestyle. That word implies this is something I chose and have control over. It's just who we are, the same way straight people don't wake up one day and choose to be straight. And yeah, if you think who I simply am is wrong, that's cool. Just keep your mouth shut and be graceful. I'm not introducing myself with some string of sound bites from RuPaul's Drag Race or something, but if I introduce you to my boyfriend, I expect the same grace and respect I'd give you when meeting your girlfriend.

The most powerful comment I received when Tyler and I announced we were starting this thing came in response to the literal ONE Facebook friend (out of so many supporters) who was like "why does it have to be gay racing, why can't it just be racing." Can't remember who said it, but... if this group existing and in such prominence helps even one gay or lesbian or bi or trans or queer or whatever kid who loves cars and is otherwise struggling with their identity to not kill themselves because they see it's okay to be all of those things, then the hard work is worth it.

I never struggled beyond the "hurrdurr coming out is hard for everyone" typical challenge. My parents are kickass. Nobody had issues with it. But I was welcomed into the very-tight-knit NASA Mid-Atlantic family when I was 18 and realized I could be myself in that environment as I was working on understanding what "myself" actually was. The idea here is to lead with this, quietly, normally, unashamedly.

There are plenty of gay journalists and gay racers who depend on PR connections and event invites and racecar rides and so on for their livelihood. They don't lead with their orientation (or mention it at all) but rumors spread and winkwinknudge we all kinda know who's who but not entirely. I have a full-time career that isn't this and couldn't give fewer berkeleys if some OEM doesn't want to give me a press car or some magazine doesn't want me to write for them because of who I am. It's super liberating.

Stampie
Stampie UltimaDork
3/12/20 9:04 p.m.
slowbird said:

In reply to Stampie :

How about a Lincoln? cheeky

Only if it's a pre 22 Lincoln because Ford ruined Lincoln after that. 

Stampie
Stampie UltimaDork
3/12/20 9:06 p.m.

In reply to ChrisLS8 :

He was gay his whole life. Y'all just didn't know it. 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
3/12/20 10:24 p.m.

I'm all for people having whatever "group" they want in motorsports. Whether that be their friends, their fellow rednecks, their fellow LGBT people, their fellow BMW drivers. their fellow Subaru bros. Motorsports is always more fun when you have your "crew" that you compete against, or help each other out, or whatever.

Our rallycross organization (DC region) has an openly gay couple (and perhaps a couple more, can't say I ever inquired or cared), a bunch of suburbanites who probably love Obama, a bunch of country boys who probably love Trump (yes, I'm just generalizing here), a bunch of Subaru guys who love Pastrana (lol), and a handful of females as well. 9 years with this club and I don't remember anyone ever saying or doing anything that I'd even remotely interpret as being racist, sexist, anti-LGBT or anything like that. I've never seen anyone raise an eyebrow when one of the guys introduced his boyfriend. We all have our little groups that we paddock with (usually the people in our class, or with same-marque cars), but that's about all the "clique" there is at rallycross. Not everyone is best friends, but any tension between anyone is just because of competitiveness and/or just general personality differences.

Kind of sad to hear that there are still motorsports events in this day and age where anyone would care if you're black or female or gay or trans or whatever (and I'm happy that in 20 years of motorsports I've almost never oberved this kind of behavior).  We all look the same with our helmets on :)

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS Dork
3/12/20 10:38 p.m.
irish44j said:

Kind of sad to hear that there are still motorsports events in this day and age where anyone would care if you're black or female or gay or trans or whatever (and I'm happy that in 20 years of motorsports I've almost never oberved this kind of behavior).  We all look the same with our helmets on :)

I agree, but I'd go so far as to say any events not just Motorsport. I'm honestly shocked this is an issue.  I know whenever I'm near a car with my helmet, I'm so focused on improving my driving (lots to focus on there), this issue never crosses my mind.

I guess the levels with which man can sink to in order to hate one another, shouldn't surprise, but it does.  

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
3/12/20 10:52 p.m.
AnthonyGS said:
irish44j said:

Kind of sad to hear that there are still motorsports events in this day and age where anyone would care if you're black or female or gay or trans or whatever (and I'm happy that in 20 years of motorsports I've almost never oberved this kind of behavior).  We all look the same with our helmets on :)

I agree, but I'd go so far as to say any events not just Motorsport. I'm honestly shocked this is an issue.  I know whenever I'm near a car with my helmet, I'm so focused on improving my driving (lots to focus on there), this issue never crosses my mind.

I guess the levels with which man can sink to in order to hate one another, shouldn't surprise, but it does.  

Agree. Though in peoples' "regular" lives I feel like they are more beholden to their ideals, biases, religious convictions or what have you. But when you're at the track (or rally, or autocross or whatever) most people are there to escape from their everyday boring lives - and perhaps consciously or subconsciously escape their everyday opinions or ideals as well and just make it about racing and seeing friends. And I'm just speaking hypothetically, not about me. I'm fine with whomever people want to be (or are), regardless of at the track or at the office. 

Facebook makes things interesting. I'm friends on FB with hundreds of people I know through the rally community. When at a rally, everyone is freinds or at least friendly. But then you read what some of those people post on their pages and wonder "wow, that's the same guy as I talk with and have beers with at every rally?? He's a cool AF dude over beers at a rally, but totally don't like him on facebook" lol.

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS Dork
3/12/20 11:55 p.m.

And I'm not on FB....   2012 and FB cured me of social media.  I'm sure 2020 is even worse.  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
3/13/20 12:51 a.m.

If you're into cars, that makes you a brother or sister, (or whatever you might identify as) forever.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
3/13/20 5:31 a.m.
Stampie said:
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

You know I understand painting trans colors but shouldn't you do it on something more likely to finish high instead of a Ford?

A Trans Am seems like the obvious choice right? 

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/13/20 10:11 a.m.
STM317 said:
Stampie said:
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

You know I understand painting trans colors but shouldn't you do it on something more likely to finish high instead of a Ford?

A Trans Am seems like the obvious choice right? 

Heh, perhaps.

Considering they named the Trans Am after a racing series that they hadn't won, didn't ask permission for it, and couldn't even race that model in it, I harbor some disdain for the car. cheeky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Firebird#Racing

Although if I had to own a GM product, a turbo 89 Trans Am might be my top choice. They look the best of all the F-body cars in my opinion, especially with those sweet wheels.

Hmmm...it could work.

Stampie
Stampie UltimaDork
3/13/20 5:19 p.m.

In reply to slowbird :

Only downfall is Cars & Coffee Mustangs can't donate their wheels. 

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/13/20 5:37 p.m.

In reply to Stampie :

laugh

Miss_Mercedes
Miss_Mercedes None
3/16/20 5:04 p.m.
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

Do it! Most of my Gambler vehicles fly the flag. Surprisingly, the openness has resulted in some amazing conversations and even learning experiences.

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
3/16/20 6:12 p.m.

I was pretty apprehensive to open this thread after having clicked through that diesel brothers thread.  But hey, i got all the way to end without even getting close to adding anyone to the 'the world is just waiting until you die so we can be normal' list, so it's pretty good! 

One thing I've pondered as a car person is the extent to which i might be accidentally propping up stereotypes just by being so.. stereotypical (at least from a distance). Between what i look like and what im into, even the sound of my voice, i sometimes feel like i'm reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles just by existing even though i reject them ideologically. I know that anyone who gets to know me even a little bit would see past whatever stereotypes of masculinity i happen to slot into, but I don't really know how to announce myself as an ally or my class (im a teacher) as a safe space without screwing it up any. I've got some ideas. It's something i should spend a little time on. Luckily my college has a safe space with some employees i could actually just ask, so i should probably do that. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa HalfDork
3/16/20 6:18 p.m.
Vigo said:

but I don't really know how to announce myself as an ally or my class (im a teacher) as a safe space. I've got some ideas. It's something i should spend a little time on. 

A flag on your desk or something similar? Depends on what kind of teacher you are, I guess

Stampie
Stampie UltimaDork
3/16/20 6:21 p.m.

In reply to Vigo :

I probably fit the older white male redneck stereotype but I've found that just talking to people and showing that I respect them as a person overcomes that first impression of me pretty quick. 

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/16/20 7:48 p.m.
Stampie said:

In reply to Vigo :

I probably fit the older white male redneck stereotype but I've found that just talking to people and showing that I respect them as a person overcomes that first impression of me pretty quick.

I AM the older white male redneck hillbilly! But anyone that assumes that is ALL I am, has pidgin-holed me with a stereotype, and not given me the benefit of the doubt long enough to know me!

And yes, I was a long hair back when it was as big a sin as being ...

Some people will always find a reason to hate.

I try not to hate anyone.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/16/20 7:49 p.m.
STM317 said:
Stampie said:
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

You know I understand painting trans colors but shouldn't you do it on something more likely to finish high instead of a Ford?

A Trans Am seems like the obvious choice right? 

I'm thinking piston powered ex-rotary Mazda, or anything that had been converted from one drive type to another.  smiley

 

I have a lot of gay/trans people in my friends and family circle and I've witnessed enough of the BS they have lived with their whole lives (both external, and internalized) that the number of high-voted positive comments makes me feel real warm and fuzzy inside.

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/16/20 8:22 p.m.

I've heard the ugly comments, and I've seen the passive-agressive behavior, and I do feel for the difficult time anyone who is "different" has to put up with.

Some get ugly militant and aggressively in every ones face, screaming every one hates them... That's as bad as the haters, and causes its own share of problems.

I adhere to the old adage "your right to swing your arms, ends at the tip of my nose"... and try to give everyone else that same respect.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/16/20 8:28 p.m.

That too. Most of my friends/family are more like, I have a boyfriend/girlfriend, or my boyfriend was born wrong.  Whatevs.  Also got these color eyes, also got this color hair, also got this color skin, who gives a berk.

 

I can totally understand the militant-ness of some people.  It's a coping mechanism, to deal with the hate they've had to live with their whole lives, from other people and from themselves.  I see it less in the younger people, and that is also something that makes a warm and fuzzy feeling.

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/16/20 8:36 p.m.
Knurled. said:

That too. Most of my friends/family are more like, I have a boyfriend/girlfriend, or my boyfriend was born wrong.  Whatevs.  Also got these color eyes, also got this color hair, also got this color skin, who gives a berk.

 

I can totally understand the militant-ness of some people.  It's a coping mechanism, to deal with the hate they've had to live with their whole lives, from other people and from themselves.  I see it less in the younger people, and that is also something that makes a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I understand where their militant attitude comes from: But it is NOT ok. And, causes problems for both sides, and those in the middle.

Good point about the younger crowd. I hadn't thought about it, but I believe you might be right for BOTH sides... making more folks in the middle!! Good news, for sure.

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/16/20 8:38 p.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

I missed "and from themselfs" the first time. Anothe good point, and we all need to understand and offer compassion for that part. Peace!

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/16/20 8:39 p.m.
Knurled. said:

That too. Most of my friends/family are more like, I have a boyfriend/girlfriend, or my boyfriend was born wrong.  Whatevs.  Also got these color eyes, also got this color hair, also got this color skin, who gives a berk

Absolutely!!

Daylan C
Daylan C PowerDork
3/17/20 7:47 a.m.
slowbird said:
STM317 said:
Stampie said:
slowbird said:

I'm happy that this is a thing, and thanks to GRM for giving it coverage.

I'm considering painting my challenge car in trans flag colors this year.

You know I understand painting trans colors but shouldn't you do it on something more likely to finish high instead of a Ford?

A Trans Am seems like the obvious choice right? 

Heh, perhaps.

Considering they named the Trans Am after a racing series that they hadn't won, didn't ask permission for it, and couldn't even race that model in it, I harbor some disdain for the car. cheeky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Firebird#Racing

Although if I had to own a GM product, a turbo 89 Trans Am might be my top choice. They look the best of all the F-body cars in my opinion, especially with those sweet wheels.

Hmmm...it could work.

Honestly I suspect there are people like me, who are not fully up to date with all the colors and what they're tied to, that would just think that's a cool livery. 

I support the meaning behind it now that I know what it is. I just initially didn't know because, well, there are a lot of things I don't know I guess. 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/17/20 7:50 a.m.

In reply to Daylan C :

I'm thekind of person who would paint a car a color scheme because it looked cool (for example) and then wonder why everyone made comments that seemed completely irrelevant.

Daylan C
Daylan C PowerDork
3/17/20 8:08 a.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

Yep. Pretty much. That render just reminds me of some of the old Players Challenge cars with a nice contrasting shade of pink added on top.

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/17/20 10:07 a.m.

In reply to Daylan C :

Heh, I see what you mean. I guess that's a pretty good livery to be associated with.

 

Perhaps some subtle logos added to the design would make it more clear what the meaning is.

Wicked93gs
Wicked93gs Reader
3/17/20 3:36 p.m.

The whole issue boils down to the same old issue wearing different faces. Collectivism. Whether its racism, sexism, etc, bigotry of any and all types is just collectivism. People trying to group others into categories like "LBGT" or "straight", "male" or "female", "old" or "young", "black" or "white". It comes from a desire to try to make others conform to stereotypical views. What most refuse to accept is that collectivism is damaging to everyone....whether you associate others with a particular group or you associate yourself with a given group...all you are doing is separating people...trying to fit others into a preconceived stereotypical box you have in your head. The only solution is to realize that there are no groups...at all, there are only individuals and no one fits in a given box, and forcing someone into that box(even inside your head) is only dehumanizing them. There is no "us" and "them", there are only people...and the stupid identity politics so prevalent today is only making bigots out of everyone. As Aerosmith put it "If you can tell a wise man by the color of his skin, then mister you are a better man than I". The point being as it always has been: Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/18/20 8:32 a.m.
Wicked93gs said:

The whole issue boils down to the same old issue wearing different faces. Collectivism. Whether its racism, sexism, etc, bigotry of any and all types is just collectivism. People trying to group others into categories like "LBGT" or "straight", "male" or "female", "old" or "young", "black" or "white". It comes from a desire to try to make others conform to stereotypical views. What most refuse to accept is that collectivism is damaging to everyone....whether you associate others with a particular group or you associate yourself with a given group...all you are doing is separating people...trying to fit others into a preconceived stereotypical box you have in your head. The only solution is to realize that there are no groups...at all, there are only individuals and no one fits in a given box, and forcing someone into that box(even inside your head) is only dehumanizing them. There is no "us" and "them", there are only people...and the stupid identity politics so prevalent today is only making bigots out of everyone. As Aerosmith put it "If you can tell a wise man by the color of his skin, then mister you are a better man than I". The point being as it always has been: Treat others as you would like to be treated.

So - yes, with caveats. I'll challenge you a little bit and we'll use race (not racing) as an example.

People who say "I don't see color" - that's a great phrase on the surface, right? The people who say things like that are well-meaning and generally mean "I see us all as equals and we don't need labels because yay we're all the same!"

That's a really great idealistic thought. The reality is that we need folks to see color, and gender, and sexuality, and religion, and nationality, and so on - because while the most zen course of action is to not put labels to any person, everyone's got a different battle they're fighting. Women fight different battles than black people, who fight different battles than gays who fight different battles than Jewish people, who fight different battles than trans women.

And before someone goes "oh, well what about men?!" - Go to a public park (not now, after this coronavirus blows over), bring your young child and let them play, and just sit and watch them like any loving parent would. I've heard enough stories to know how that can go.

Point being, we all need to treat others as we want to be treated, YES. Absolutely. And a large part of that is deliberately sitting down with people/friends/colleagues who have different identities than you do, to understand how they are seeing the same common struggles through their own unique lens.

G_Body_Man
G_Body_Man UltraDork
3/18/20 8:46 a.m.

Congrats on the feature! I firmly believe that it doesn't matter if you're male/female/non-binary/cis/trans/gay/lesbian/bi/pan/queer/genderfluid/etc., cars unite people. You're doing great work providing a space in the automotive community free of homophobic idiots pretending the world is a Modern Warfare 2 lobby chat. Oh, and if anyone here didn't watch Out Motorsports's $1500 off-road challenge they're totally missing out. Some of the best content I've seen on Youtube in a while.

 

 

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/18/20 9:10 a.m.
G_Body_Man said:

Congrats on the feature! I firmly believe that it doesn't matter if you're male/female/non-binary/cis/trans/gay/lesbian/bi/pan/queer/genderfluid/etc., cars unite people. You're doing great work providing a space in the automotive community free of homophobic idiots pretending the world is a Modern Warfare 2 lobby chat. Oh, and if anyone here didn't watch Out Motorsports's $1500 off-road challenge they're totally missing out. Some of the best content I've seen on Youtube in a while.

Thank you!! That was such a fun trip. We're doing something again this August, still involving dirt but more competitive and more... old-people-ish, less crossover.

Powar
Powar UltraDork
3/18/20 9:20 a.m.
G_Body_Man said:

Oh, and if anyone here didn't watch Out Motorsports's $1500 off-road challenge they're totally missing out. Some of the best content I've seen on Youtube in a while.

Totally agreed! I was in love with that Town and Country. 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/18/20 9:23 a.m.

I tried to stay away but I couldn't help but admire the polite back-and-forth going on here.

At work, there is a Supervisor who recently  made a joke about his tiny office being a former closet (you can imagine the joke). The person who made the (actually hilarious) joke is Mark. He is not Mark the Gay Supervisor.

The biggest disservice to mankind in general (obviously excluding specific abominations like the Holocaust, slavery etc.) is the overuse of needless modifiers. Black man, lesbian woman, Latino Congressman, Asian motocross rider etc.  Don’t get me started on “Firsts”: First Black Female Bullfighter.”, “First Croatian-born Astronaut to orbit the Earth.”

This isn’t just a matter of a person using modifiers toward other people but the use of modifiers to identity oneself.

Drop the senseless modifiers and change a nation. Failure to do so perpetuates the imaginary walls between us that Identity Politics has cruelly erected.

I apologize if this offends anyone but I think calling something "Out Motorsports" or "Out" anything automatically excludes people and puts up a wall that serves no one and perpetuates the very thing we're trying to eradicate.

By the way, that Merkur is AMAZING.

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
3/18/20 9:45 a.m.
ebonyandivory said:

I tried to stay away but I couldn't help but admire the polite back-and-forth going on here.

At work, there is a Supervisor who recently  made a joke about his tiny office being a former closet (you can imagine the joke). The person who made the (actually hilarious) joke is Mark. He is not Mark the Gay Supervisor.

The biggest disservice to mankind in general (obviously excluding specific abominations like the Holocaust, slavery etc.) is the overuse of needless modifiers. Black man, lesbian woman, Latino Congressman, Asian motocross rider etc.  Don’t get me started on “Firsts”: First Black Female Bullfighter.”, “First Croatian-born Astronaut to orbit the Earth.”

This isn’t just a matter of a person using modifiers toward other people but the use of modifiers to identity oneself.

Drop the senseless modifiers and change a nation. Failure to do so perpetuates the imaginary walls between us that Identity Politics has cruelly erected.

I apologize if this offends anyone but I think calling something "Out Motorsports" or "Out" anything automatically excludes people and puts up a wall that serves no one and perpetuates the very thing we're trying to eradicate.

By the way, that Merkur is AMAZING.

You're very much enttiled to your opinion! 

Much like your supervisor is Mark, I'm just Jake the racecar driver. BUT... there is absolutely a need to have groups like these. I'm sorry the discourse here doesn't convince you of such. See my reply a few comments up about the need to unify while recognizing various identities. We can strive for equality while also understanding our own differences. Those differences don't simply go away because someone thinks labels are silly.

Surely you understand the idea of "Out Motorsports" tying directly to coming out and thus being your authentic self. To perceive the branding as exclusionary is, frankly, a bit obtuse. Would you say the same about a group labeled "Out and Proud" or "Out at Work" or similar? I suppose you'd say those groups simply don't need to exist. Same for other affinity groups in the workplace.

Friendly reminder, since you're going on about being inclusive and breaking down walls and so on - one of the two major political parties doesn't think I'm deserving of equal rights. Basic stuff, like employment and housing equality. If you're gonna preach this sort of kumbiyah mindset, I'd sure hope you're working to help shift the views of the very party you earlier, proudly, claimed to align with.

(Before anyone gets too "why can't this just be about cars, why is everything political" ... everything is political, doubly so if you're part of a marginalized group)

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/18/20 10:00 a.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 :

If you'll take a minute and show me the specific policies that explicitly prevent LGBTQ individuals from gaining employment and housing I will certainly stand beside you in protest against those policies. And please be specific or we're just spinning our wheels andI haven't the time nor the desire to fight ghosts.

I'm not sure if parts of your reply were an attempt at "gotcha" shaming but in case it was, you're barking up the wrong tree. And you ironically may be putting me in a box with that sort of assumption.

And if you claim to just be "Jake the racecar driver" why was the entire article about sexual preference and lifestyle? If what you just claimed were true, I wouldn't have a clue that you were gay.

Its just that the thread  title "Out Motorsports Creates a Space for LGBT+ Racing Enthusiats" and your comment "I'm just Jake the race car driver" don't agree with each other.

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/18/20 10:07 a.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 :

You said it better than I ever could. Being proud of one's identity isn't about being divisive, it's about showing others that we're real human beings, deserving of fair treatment. (Certain states are trying as we speak to pass laws discriminating against LGBT+ people, so it's an ongoing fight, even though some people think "oh you already got marriage rights so it's all good now")

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/18/20 10:10 a.m.
ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/18/20 10:10 a.m.

In reply to slowbird :

Government has NO PLACE in marriage. At all. How can I have conservative leanings and still believe that? I urge everyone to stop labeling ALL people. And that includes conservatives.

(this is NOT directed at you personally)

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
3/18/20 10:17 a.m.

In reply to slowbird :

I'm sorry, I was unable to find a policy created by the current administration that prevented the employement or the purchase of housing by members of the LGBTQ community.

If you have a few minutes, please post a link to the specific policy created by the current administration that addresses this topic.

And in the meantime, let me state that if we know of a business owner who employs clearly bigoted practices, lets all never do business with him or her so that they may go out of business.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/18/20 10:18 a.m.

A very dear friend of mine is openly trans. She's also into cars. When I shared the link to the Out Motorsports page with her, the reply said it all: Wow, a place where I am totally welcomed as I am. 

That's really all it's about: Giving a traditionally marginalized group a place where they can free welcome while enjoying a common love. Is it any different than my wife's all-women cycling club? 

And if it's not for you, you're totally free to move along. 

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/18/20 10:20 a.m.

In reply to ebonyandivory :

I didn't mean to make this just about marriage, it was just an example. Anyway, my point was that our rights are being fought for continuously, because some people out there want to repeal them even after we've gotten laws passed to preserve them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._ballot_initiatives_to_repeal_LGBT_anti-discrimination_laws

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/18/20 10:22 a.m.
ebonyandivory said:

In reply to slowbird :

I'm sorry, I was unable to find a policy created by the current administration that prevented the employement or the purchase of housing by members of the LGBTQ community.

If you have a few minutes, please post a link to the specific policy created by the current administration that addresses this topic.

And in the meantime, let me state that if we know of a business owner who employs clearly bigoted practices, lets all never do business with him or her so that they may go out of business.

Trump Administration Asks Supreme Court To Legalize Firing Transgender Workers

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/18/20 10:24 a.m.

Also, I'm going to press pause on this one for a while. I believe that everyone has stated their case. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/18/20 12:18 p.m.

Breathe in, breathe out.

Thanks, everyone. 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
3/18/20 2:58 p.m.

You know what?  People who happen to be gay are A-OK. Your personal preferences/bedroom lifestyle/etc dont matter to me. 

 

I mean, yeah, I have met some who put on that Ru Paul or whatever persona more than a bit thick and I found them annoying, which made me shy away.  That said, I do the same with brotards, vapers, rednecks...  

 

There was an episode of Hotel Impossible that has kind of stuck with me. It actually portrayed the reverse situation, where a LGBT++ (hard to keep up with proper terms) resort was welcome to hetero, but had omitted it from all of its advertising whatsoever, which drove them away. Having a visible presence out there is advantageous to our hobby/sport because otherwise assumptions of unwelcome are easily made. Just by existing, "hey, if they are part of that scene and not driven off, I am welcome too"

 

If there's anything that can be done to help, let it be known.   (not that anyone is likely to be racing for the next while...)

Stampie
Stampie UltimaDork
3/18/20 3:42 p.m.

In reply to Apexcarver :

Racing is ok just no passing in order to keep the 6 foot minimum separation. 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
3/18/20 3:48 p.m.
Stampie said:

In reply to Apexcarver :

Racing is ok just no passing in order to keep the 6 foot minimum separation. 

Well, I guess we could just say we are practicing our emergency social distancing mechanisms...

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/18/20 3:52 p.m.

Time trials it is, then! Wait, does that mean hillclimbs are okay?

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/18/20 4:19 p.m.

In reply to slowbird :

Only if you are playing "Run To The Hills" on the stereo during your run.

slowbird
slowbird Dork
3/18/20 4:29 p.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

How about "Over The Mountain"?

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
3/18/20 7:46 p.m.

Things don't change until there is awareness and people have the guts to be out there. When people have negative preconceived notions, the only way to break things down is to show people they're wrong. Thus a label is useful for a period of time. Just because things have improved, doesn't mean there isn't further to go. Motorsports might be a fairly welcoming environment, but it's also mostly people of from similar demographic buckets.

It's actually rather surprising to me how quickly attitudes have changed on these sorts of matters. I mention the following as a demonstration, not to get into the politics of it: Obama campaigned on the idea that marriage was between a man and a woman, in part I'm sure because that was precieved as the mainstream position.  Today, many would consider that to be a discriminatory position, possibly rendering a candidate unelectable with a left wing voting tent. Look any any reputable surveys/polls on attitudes towards LGBQ (deliberately listing the least contentious) issues in the not too distant past, things have changed rapidly.

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/18/20 8:02 p.m.
slowbird said:

In reply to Brake_L8 :

You said it better than I ever could. Being proud of one's identity isn't about being divisive, it's about showing others that we're real human beings, deserving of fair treatment. (Certain states are trying as we speak to pass laws discriminating against LGBT+ people, so it's an ongoing fight, even though some people think "oh you already got marriage rights so it's all good now")

Most of my Family came over from Denmark throughout late 1800's, and settled in the Southern foothill's areas. That makes me a white, Southern, backwoods hillbilly. And I am very proud of my heritage. But if I were to get actively aggressive and exclusionary about it, how many people would have a fit?

              Its just that the thread  title "Out Motorsports Creates a Space for LGBT+ Racing Enthusiats" and your comment "I'm just Jake the race car driver" don't agree with each other.

That sentence, in and of itself, is true. However Jake is also very correct in saying the "I don't see color" (or replace with whatever) statements sound great on the surface, but its not a helpful statement. Just because ALL are EQUAL doesn't mean all have to be the same!!!  'Cause that only happens by force, and history shows that doesn't work out well.

That the trouble with trying to see all sides of a subject... It all gets so convoluted from there my head hurts if I think too much!

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/18/20 8:09 p.m.

In reply to Snrub :

I'm thinking of the Pride parade on The Simpsons, where they were chanting "We're here!  We're queer!  Get used to it!"  and Lisa shouted back "We know!  We are used to it!"

We're not there yet though.

I also think of something a writer I used to follow online (a lot of webcomicists are gay or trans, I guess?  Or maybe just a lot of the good ones) said about trans women:  "You can tell who is trans because they're just wearing jeans and a sweater."  IE, not trying to overdress, or overcompensate, they just "are".

 

So I guess the vibe I'm trying to convey is, maybe a little bit of in-your-faceness is a good thing?  Because maybe people who aren't tolerant don't realize that they people they are intolerant of are actually right there next to them, working with them and sharing beers with them and whatnot, and maybe that is precisely the kind of perspective they need to get.

Daylan C
Daylan C PowerDork
3/18/20 9:29 p.m.

The issue with the "color blind society" idea that claims we're all the same has quite a few issues. Namely the fact that we simply aren't the same. Everyone has a set of variables they were born with and then more they developed over time through life experiences. None of those will ever add up to be the same person. That doesn't make any of us worth more or less than others, we still all deserve a fair shot at what makes us happy, and nobody has a right to try to hold anybody back. 

Those variables also form how people see themselves as a person and people have a right to be proud of who they are. The "we're all the same" approach asks people to ignore any of those variables that the majority doesn't think is "normal". So it's still a halfass way of including people that isn't very inclusive at all. 

03Panther
03Panther Reader
3/18/20 9:48 p.m.

In reply to Daylan C :

Worded better than I am capable of. Thank you.

To many of the people that are yelling "every one should have the right to think and be what they want"  seem to also believe "as long as they believe exactly what I do!" , and "everybody is equal, as long as I'm better"

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
3/19/20 7:33 a.m.

In reply to Daylan C :

Also, taking away one's ability to label themselves and own it by saying "why all the labels" is just a way to whitewash society so the (I don't know the best word to use here, uncomfortable?) don't have to acknowledge those different from themselves.  

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