Are there any dwarf or legned kind of race cars that are mid engined??
Just day dreaming of an DM car, and that would be an interesting start.
Are there any dwarf or legned kind of race cars that are mid engined??
Just day dreaming of an DM car, and that would be an interesting start.
Well don’t know if it is exactly mid engine but the Thunder Roadster appears to have a better engine placement then the Legend cars.
https://www.uslegendcars.com/start-racing/cars/thunder-roadster/
Not really- my daydream is to make a DM X19, and seeing that many DM and EM cars have started their life as dwarf or legend cars- I thought it would be an interesting place to start.
I had also thought about starting with a Spec Racer- but those things are super expensive, and, funny enough, the wheelbase is longer, too.
So I'm coming to the conclusion that a Midlandia would be a better starting point.
For dm x1/9, why start with something other than x1/9?
I don't know dm vs em rules very well, but I considered plopping a Honda or Nissan v6 + auto trans (actually the Nissan cvt is intriguing) from a fwd car in the back of mine. 3.5l and big fat power curve. I think 3.5l would be dm at some minimum weight.
Drivetrain weight might be a bit of an issue, but you're going to be stiffening the suspension a whole lot so the 4 struts might not be that much of an issue.
pirate said:Well don’t know if it is exactly mid engine but the Thunder Roadster appears to have a better engine placement then the Legend cars.
Problem with the Thunder Roadster is that it has about a 96 inch wheelbase as opposed to 80 in on Legends cars. Plus the track is about the same. Although the engine is set more rearward.
Here's pic of 80" wheelbase EM "Jeep" built on an allison legacy chassis that is a front engine mid engine sorta.
If you're going to build it, why limit yourself to a Midlana which is really designed first and foremost as a road car. I've always loved the old 80's Formula First race cars from the UK. Used off the shelf Escort XR3 drive train, similar concept to Spec Racer, but a much lighter single seat chassis. I know you want a DMod 2 seater, but it's a concept. Also a Spec Racer is a terrible place to start other than price as A, it's still a single central seat and B, it's incredibly over the top for autocross. It's a big, heavy chassis that is incredibly safe, but only practical for a one make championship.
In reply to Robbie :
Well, you could also start with a tube frame sports racer that is better designed for racing than an X19. Most DM and EM cars are custom build chassis, anyway.
And I'm not sure that you could even take advantage of the lower weight limit of a non-tube framed car.
DM is 2.0l and under, EM is over. DM also have a restrictor if you go turbo.
Struts are a packaging compromise- which isn't needed for a race car.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
One big issue with that car- where do you get one in the US?
Oh, and here's a Spec Racer chassis for comparison, way way OTT for what you want.
In reply to alfadriver :
Sorry, once you'd disregarded the Spec Racer and Legend's type cars I assumed you'd accepted you'd be building from scratch.
To echo Adran and Alfas sentiments you'd probably find it more cost effective to buy a semi obsolete D sport racer chassis with mcycle power plant and go from there with AX.
E.g., 1980 Legrand roller with hewland box sold but advertised for $5,000 asking
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Ah- I would have to look at them closer to see how they are build. No question the spec racer is pretty over built- BUT- their weight is a pretty good start- as the weight limits for DM do have lower limits. The tube frame lower weight limit is 1380lb, and a Spec racer has a lower limit, with driver, at 1670lb. So for a 200lb driver, it would be 100lb overweight.
In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :
For sure, that's an alternative idea to start with- other than the motorcyle engine, since they are specifically not allowed in DM or EM.
My thought is find a Mallock or other Clubmans type car.
In reply to alfadriver :
From albeit limited experience, to me it looks like a bunch of older D sports racers originally sported car drivetrains and were converted to motorcycle powerplants at some time during their lives.
In reply to BoxheadTim :
That does make a lot of sense. So then the follow up question is if one is capable of converting a sports racer to a car. In manner of speaking, of course, since a DM race car isn't exactly a street car. Have to do some searching of some old cars to see what's out there.
In reply to alfadriver :
I think you would start with the wheelbase of the sports racer. And then see what cars had that wheelbase. For example the little Jeep autocross car was bodied with a replica of an old military Jeep that had and 80 inch wheelbase. Is only other choices would have been a midget or Sprite or perhaps a Spitfire. I think Sports racers at least in the lower classes wer 90 to 95 in or thereabouts
In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :
If one could find a decent 90" chassis, that would be close enough to the X19's 89.x.
O K I Know the answer is alway's C 4, But really now at 96" WB It would b the same as the Cobra I just got rid of IF you shorten it some, And really the back or rear area can easly be modded to Hold a Transverse Assy. of your Liking.
For front eng. no Major changes, for Mid engine the Windshield Cowl area Is in your Face, For transverse , I would shorten it and Find an aluminun V-8 eng. Like the Audi ( or also transverse) Or Caddy.
If You Have Funding, Or A big Sheet metal brake, I am still working on a Folded Sheet Monoque Tub, But really the C4 offers mucho Strength as a starting point, And Streamly lite.
I think if you were originally considering trying to convert a legend or dwarf type car to fit what you want (changing motor mounts, body mounts, etc) you might as well just build a chassis from scratch. I built a dwarf chassis from scratch for the sole purpose of autox. To meet the dwarf rules there are a lot of things you have to add that aren’t good for an autox car. The dwarf chassis are fairly simple and I think it would just be easier to build your mid engine chassis from scratch.
GTXVette said:O K I Know the answer is alway's C 4, But really now at 96" WB It would b the same as the Cobra I just got rid of IF you shorten it some, And really the back or rear area can easly be modded to Hold a Transverse Assy. of your Liking.
For front eng. no Major changes, for Mid engine the Windshield Cowl area Is in your Face, For transverse , I would shorten it and Find an aluminun V-8 eng. Like the Audi ( or also transverse) Or Caddy.
If You Have Funding, Or A big Sheet metal brake, I am still working on a Folded Sheet Monoque Tub, But really the C4 offers mucho Strength as a starting point, And Streamly lite.
C4 as in C4 Vette?
That doesn't seem to be a good chassis to start with for a X19. For autocross, the transverse mid mounted engine is not a bad thing- there's not much aero one can do under it anyway. The package is correct for an X19, and it keeps the car reasonably short. So a 90" DSR chassis would work pretty well. Or make your own based off of many other plans.
Another idea that may allow for a 100lb lower limit is to use the original middle tunnel- but that would require the actual "certification" that the car isn't a tube frame car. Using the original center section would let one bolt in a front and rear subframe to do the real work. A friend of mine did that with an Alfa many, many years ago, and it worked really well.
In reply to alfadriver :
I think he's just talkin about using the aluminum a arms, rack, Etc. Yeah you're right a C4 chassis without Powertrain would weigh a lot more than an E mod car. LOL
since you're a Fiat guy why not get an 850 spider body, grafted onto a shortened sand rail chassis with a Porsche 911 transaxle and engine hanging way out back? After all the 850 was only 79 in wheelbase!
Didn't consider the 850- but I'd also have to check classification to make sure it's even eligible for SCCA. But that's a great line of thinking. I was thinking mid would be better, but going shorter by 10" may even be better. More like a Formula 500.
As for the Vette parts- that solves the front, but not the rear. Whereas the rear would be solved by a Miata subframe design. What I'm actually daydreaming about is to fabricate the miata rear using tubular steel (both for the actual subframe and the suspension arms) and then attempt to copy Keith's front suspension on his Miata based 7. Or at least start with that- and then do proper CAE to refine it.
Again, this is just another of my hair brained ideas that sometimes keeps me awake at night. The odds of actually doing it- like Robbie is- is pretty thin.
But it's fun to think about.
From memory, 850 Spiders were reasonably successful in the tiddlers classes of SCCA racing, but I don't know if that carries over to the autocross side.
If I'm reading your intention correctly this would be my methode:
Is this what you are thinking?
And just to make you feel better, here's a Stratos with rear bodywork removed. Similar idea.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
For sure, that's one line of thinking. The other would be more like what loosecannon did making an MGB- all tube frame.
In theory, having some tub left would at least allow it to run in the challenge, lol.
Really- this is an extension of what Robbie is doing putting the motorcycle in his X19, but making legal for DM (since motorcycle engines are not allowed). And instead of using the stuts, use double a-arms.
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