What'll this do to Elio?

4cylndrfury wrote:

Kreb wrote: A better idea would be for Polaris to throw a tiny motor and a slippery body on the Slingshot...

Agreed. There was a Polaris dealership near me, and I saw slingshots running around on test drives all the time. I was always surprised at how huge the tiny thing looked. I couldnt tell if it was the proportions, or that it looked like a sports car but didnt at the same time. The beltline seemed too high for a vehicle with no roof. And the driver looked both swallowed up by, and not quite fitting inside of the body. I just knew it didnt look right. I kind of wanted to see a streetfighter version - dump all the plastic, bolt the lights to the frame, and just run around in the buff. A solar-race inspired capsule on one would probably look just right

Exactly. A 3-wheeler has the potential for stellar aero because a teardrop fits right around it. The unfortunate aspects of the Slingshot are the wide front stance - large frontal area, and it's not designed so much for extra-light weight. But those are things that any self-respecting designer should be able to address.

edit:

Kinda gets my creative juices flowing. Where I've seen more of those vehicles than anywhere was Canada, where they have a decidedly limited season. But why not make a modular vehicle with a top that easily unbolted for that open-air experience? BTW - The slingshot is a cash cow for Polaris, who are posting their biggest profit numbers ever. That bodes well for alternative stuff.

GameboyRMH wrote: I hope Elio makes it. Their business plan is North Korea-level optimistic so they have that going against them, but the way that automotive enthusiasts and professionals pre-emptively savage every newcomer to production car manufacturing (but not race car, kit car, or car parts manufacturing, oddly enough) makes me want to see Elio succeed just to prove them wrong. Their car is cool too. There's no other hobby I know of where enthusiasts say "Oh look, a fledgling company is trying to make a novel offering in production of the meat n' potatoes of our hobby, an industry that we often complain is too cautious and conservative. BOO what a bunch of nitwits! It's a big fat scam!"

As I believe is the case with most GRM'ers, I'd love to see Elio succeed too...But they also have a bad habit of making scammy claims and baseds on scammy logic.

Don't blame the enthusiasts (or professionals) for actually knowing enough about the realities of the industry (or in many cases, the laws of physics) to identify when so many of these 'fledgling company' proliferating around our hobby are making scammy claims based on scammy logic.

I find this whole affair to be a bit of a put-on. The first problem I see is their price. It will never be profitable when it is priced below a decent motorcycle. They would have to make up for it in volumn and I dont see this thing taking over the entry level market. No parent would say "Geez honey, let's buy our kid that unsafe looking bug thing instead of that used Honda they want."

If they started out in India or China and developed the concept I could see it, but to just jump into the North American market with such a odd concept is a non-starter.

4cylndrfury wrote: There was a Polaris dealership near me, and I saw slingshots running around on test drives all the time. I was always surprised at how huge the tiny thing looked.

That's probably because it's not actually tiny. It has a 105 inch wheelbase, 78 inch width, and 52 inch height. That's 10 inches longer, 7 inches wider, and 2 inches taller than the Solstice its drivetrain was plunked from.

Back to the original subject ... From what I've read elsewhere and some time ago, Elio is working with production equipment manufacturer Comau to sell off additional unneeded equipment at the factory. The original series of buildings totaled ~ 3,000,000 square feet. This Hyundai venture is supposedly only going to consume 125,000. Leaves a lot of remaining space to start cranking out those Elio's !!!

Here is a surprise!

Report says You'll never commute in an Elio

Interesting pro-Elio article by Peter Brock in classic motorsports this month.

They really, really need to get serious this year. Otherwise they're toast. That means coming up with the money for hard tooling for BIW and engine internals and getting it ordered.

They should really lead with the turbo. 55 hp and 0-60 in 10 seconds in a car that dinky makes it a vulnerable penalty box. Their 105-hp turbo with 0-60 in 5.5 at least lets you get out of trouble.

Pattyo wrote: I find this whole affair to be a bit of a put-on. The first problem I see is their price. It will never be profitable when it is priced below a decent motorcycle. They would have to make up for it in volumn and I dont see this thing taking over the entry level market.

As a broke-ass dude who would consider an Elio, I wouldn't complain if they tacked another grand onto the price.

chandlerGTi wrote: Interesting pro-Elio article by Peter Brock in classic motorsports this month.

Yeah, Peter was pretty excited and enthused by what Elio was displaying at SEMA. I think he was more impressed by the design aspect of it--- as the business model sure seems to need some work. Even so--- having a guy with Peter's experience and knowledge to give a thumbs-up on the design and functionality is pretty impressive. By the way.....if you ever get a chance to speak with Peter Brock--- do it! He's one of the nicest, most approachable guys you'll ever meet.

I hope they get it off the ground.

Their next SEC filing for end of year should be available in a month or so...Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling it will make this past one look 'good'.

GameboyRMH wrote: ... but the way that automotive enthusiasts and professionals pre-emptively savage every newcomer to production car manufacturing (but not race car, kit car, or car parts manufacturing, oddly enough) makes me want to see Elio succeed just to prove them wrong.

That's a huge generalization. EVERY newcomer to production? Never badmouthing kit cars? Try hanging out on a kit car forum to see it's exactly the opposite.

I think being a 3-wheeler is the problem. There's just no way to convince most people (you know, buyers) that it's not odd/strange/unsafe looking. Bowl them over with engineering reasons for why it makes sense is completely lost when people vote (rightly or wrongly) on looks with their wallets.

If there was ever a 3-wheeler I thought would succeed, it was the Aptera. What drove me nuts about them was their (similarly) fishy marketing claims of awesomeness, something that even Wiki noted:

The fuel efficiency of 300 mpg-US (0.78 L/100 km) when plugged in every 120 miles (190 km) would make it one of the most fuel-efficient cars in the world. This is without accounting for any fuel used for generating the power that charges the batteries. If that is provided for, the equation could stand significantly altered, depending on the source of the energy.

They, too, relieved many people of deposits, of which only some were refunded.

kb58 wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: ... but the way that automotive enthusiasts and professionals pre-emptively savage every newcomer to production car manufacturing (but not race car, kit car, or car parts manufacturing, oddly enough) makes me want to see Elio succeed just to prove them wrong.

That's a huge generalization. EVERY newcomer to production? Never badmouthing kit cars? Try hanging out on a kit car forum to see it's exactly the opposite.

I don't spend much time on kit-car-specific forums, so tell me this: Do kit car companies get badmouthed after people have judged their finished products, or starting the moment of the company's launch announcement?

The business plan has never sounded plausible to me. That's why I was cynical. The "barriers to entry" for a new automobile designer-manufacturer-marketer are enormous, even if you have a great idea, which Elio does not.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

That probably depends largely on just how wildly unrealistic the kit car company's launch announcement is...Followed by just how many continued wildly unrealistic promises they make, then utterly (but predictably at that point) fail to deliver on.

The thing is, cars are getting more and more efficient. Cheap is nice, but not being able to make direct eye contact with your passenger, and severely limiting utility is a pretty harsh price to pay for 84 MPG. If I were trying to generate demand for the vehicle, instead of emphasizing primarily economy and price, I'd also push the fun to drive button pretty hard. Offer a turbocharged version. By emphasizing heart as well as head, you've spread your potential buyer base big time.

This all makes me very sad.

In reply to Kreb:

True... the benefit:cost ratio just isn't all that good with the Elio. In one of our other threads about fuel mileage, there was an interesting graph showing the diminishing $ returns of higher MPG. 20mpg to 40mpg = significant savings. 40mpg to 80 mpg = not as much as it might appear on the surface.

I was practically heartbroken when the Aptera went under. I really wanted one of those. The mpg didn't matter as much as how cool it looks.

I liked the Aptera so much that I have on multiple occasions looked for a Piper fuselage to use as a foundation for building my own.

In reply to oldopelguy:

The thought has crossed my mind as well.

GameboyRMH wrote:

kb58 wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: ... but the way that automotive enthusiasts and professionals pre-emptively savage every newcomer to production car manufacturing (but not race car, kit car, or car parts manufacturing, oddly enough) makes me want to see Elio succeed just to prove them wrong.

That's a huge generalization. EVERY newcomer to production? Never badmouthing kit cars? Try hanging out on a kit car forum to see it's exactly the opposite.

I don't spend much time on kit-car-specific forums, so tell me this: Do kit car companies get badmouthed after people have judged their finished products, or starting the moment of the company's launch announcement?

OEM constantly get badmouthed, why can't start ups?

So some key points for this car.... The #1 selling segment of all are full sized trucks. #2 and #3 are mid sized cars and CUV/SUV's based loosely off of those cars. A lot of that desire is for "utility" and a lot of that is perceived safety in size. The Elio has neither of those.

Next key point, in a market that is arguably far, far more welcoming of a super cheap car (huge population, not the best economy), the cheapest car in the world has never sold 100k in a year.

When you see business ideas that they think they can sell anywhere near 200k a year of this car, I don't see a single market in the world that can back that idea up. Maybe the sum of all markets- 70k in India, 70k in China, 50k in EU, 30k in the US....

Then see some interesting business choices- starting out with no money and deciding to invest in making a brand new version of the most single expensive part in a car.

And then seeing it try to be a motorcycle but not be one at the same time....

If you ask me, a better plan to get going is to be like Lotus- make kit cars so that you can make money. Progress from there. OR- start making high end sedans- where you can make up the low demand via very high prices- like Tesla (although, they still don't make money).

To make any money selling a super cheap car, you have to be the super market leader of all time.

Should we just ignore all of that and pretend that everything will be great? Maybe they have a plan to address all of that. But, as of yet, there's no indication of that.

Another way of looking at it is that it's really hard to be profitable making anything where low price is a primary selling point. Whether it's cars, computers or what have you, the seller will always pile on if they can. It can be extended warranties, rich Corinthian leather, the enhanced air filtration option, or the thing is high priced to begin with (hello Tesla and Apple) but in the end, it has to be profitable. The add-ons are the most profitable part of the product. That's a huge fly in Elio's ointment because their selling points are low initial cost and efficiency. Few people are likely to get the trim upgrade, the roof rack, et cetera. At least the Aptera had sexiness going for it. I could see someone wanting to deck the Aptera out with more goodies.

This came up on another forum. I searched here and didn't find it posted but you know how well the search function works.

Not sure how legitimate this site is but here goes: http://thehayride.com/2017/05/shreveports-elio-motors-debacle-reaches-end-stages/#ixzz4hgCRn7UJ