Fair market value for Jaguar junk.

In reply to SV reX :

No I'm thinking of my next car.   I want to build a Jaguar XKE with junk I have left over.  I've already got a lot of XKE molds  the few I'm missing I can either make myself or buy the parts. 
    The Body will be a 1961 roadster and the engine will be a 1971.   I even know where there is a used set of wire wheels. 

In reply to frenchyd :

So, you just want opinions on what this stuff is worth?  Or will it potentially become a Challenge car?

Keith Tanner said:

frenchyd said:

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Calvin gets good deals. He isn't in here making weak attempts at Fair Market Value hoodwinks. 

You seem to know a lot about Calvin but yet are unable to learn from him. 

It seems he buys at fair market value.  From various junkyards. I've never heard him say I really stole this or this one was given to me.   In General from what I see he's at market price.  
    Same as all of us.  This isn't lead with your wallet racing. It's grass roots.  I know you're not willing to pay top of the market prices. Frankly neither am I. We are all grass roots. 

It's my understanding that if you can buy something without special treatment, that's the value of the part. If Calvin is buying parts, he and the seller have agreed on the value and that is the market price for the part pretty much by definition. Hard bargaining or clever shopping is allowed. Getting a special price from a friend is not.

FMV only comes into effect when you're trying to value something you have sitting on your shelf, when you are both the buyer and seller - or when the seller is giving you a deal that nobody else could get. Obviously the temptation is to undervalue it, which is why you have to document how you came up with the value. If everyone's saying your pile of Jag parts is worth scrap metal price, it sounds to me like that's in your favor.

Kieth. This is all left over junk I have on my shelf. Exactly like you say.   I don't have receipts for it. I want my next car to be an XKE,   I've got molds. I can build a frame. And I've got these parts to make it so. 
      In the past when I've tried to unload it I'd get a few calls asking what year stuff was and it never was right.  I'd have a 87 and he wanted a 82.  They are basically identical. But he was looking for an 82. ( Jaguar buyers are, well••••• challenging).yes I recognize Irony.  
 So far the only serious offer I've had is from Robbie. I'm OK with $300 if that's all anyone actually would pay. 

SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

So, you just want opinions on what this stuff is worth?  Or will it potentially become a Challenge car?

   

Yes my goal is after the XJS To build an XKE.    Have less than $2000 by the challenge rules in it. All Jaguar   ( including wire wheels ).  
       Robbie has offered me $300. I guess I need 4 more like that.  It would be fun to be judged.  
    According to Classic Motorsports. A modern Minivan will beat the XKE's lap time. So it shouldn't be anything  too fast. 
     I've got a bucket list after the Challenge. Bonneville, Watkins Glen, Elkhart Lake.   None of those are going to set records or god forbid win races. 
But at least those parts won't wind up in the dumpster when I pass. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Is this what you are calling a serious offer from Robbie?

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:  ... To me, $300 for that pile is such a good deal (so much less than fair market value) I would be willing to drive 12 hours round trip to go get it. I would not be interested in buying it at fair market value.

I don't think that puts the FMV at $300.

In reply to frenchyd :

Tell you what. I'll totally believe you and stand behind your efforts if you can tell us the rules on how to make your homebuilt fiberglass XKE Challenge legal as a production car. 

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Yes, don't be a jerk.  Except you stated you've read the rules, then the rules were posted for you and explained, and you have yet to actually follow the rules.  Far as I'm concerned you're being the jerk for wasting our time.

No one is going to suggest a price for you.  YOU have to do that, as stated by the rules, then at least 5 people agree.

You want people stop being jerks to you? Stop trying to jerk us around.

 

 

Swear to all that is holy, if you spent half the time on building as you do at trying to find loopholes you would beat everyone at the Challenge.

I'm going to explain this to you nicely in spite of your comments otherwise.   I'm a school bus driver. I put in 12 hour days but only get paid for 5.  Rather than drive the 28 miles back and forth I sit and wait.   Waiting for my next trip or the kids to come out  is when I do this.   Sometimes it's disjointed because I don't finish, or something changes.  etc. 
 With regard to the rules every one gets excited about. Rule books are written by a person who while that  person has a clear idea of his intention.   Often that's not as clear to others. 
 I could waste time and show you a lot of examples but  you don't seem to care.  
  Just Try to be nice and pleasant. Don't assume everyone understands everything the same as you do. 

If you want to build a XKE out of Junk you have on hand do that.  It's an interesting story and will be an interesting project car.  

If you want to build an XKE for a legit bring it to Florida challenge car, get some of those parts cars you claim to know about and get Reciepts.  

FMV does not work by us telling you what stuff is worth by what we would pay today.  $300 may be all Robbie is willing to pay but that doesn't mean that's what it's worth, it's just what it's worth to him.  FMV is not a tool to reduce the value of parts you already own.  It's the reason people get legit reciepts for Great deals and parts and cash have to legit change hands.      

frenchyd said:

  Just Try to be nice and pleasant. Don't assume everyone understands everything the same as you do. 

What aspect of the FMV rules are you currently confused about?  Please go read the FMV section of the rules, then after reading the rules please type out your understanding of the FMV rules.  Then experienced challengers will try to explain it to you to ensure you Understand the rules the same way they are meant to be.  

FMV is a hot button issue because it can and has been abused.   I feel a build with a High mount of FMV really should be avoided.  I've tried to minimize it on my build and only have ~$10 in FMV parts.  I have some parts on my build where I simply used / assigned full Retail pricing to avoid using FMV because of my thoughts on it.   But that is MY opinion of it.  The rule is written and is pretty well understood at this point so if you are confused or unsure how to use it, just Ask.    

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

   I'm trying to get a fair market value so I can build a car that meets the challenge rules.  Actual truth,  I've got no expense in most of this stuff. It's just remnants of  past work.  
  I can still build the car  and race undocumented. So if you hesitate for some reason?     
 

Want FMV for what you are building with? Can't use what you paid? Do the work. Each Specific part you want a value of, give details. Let us know what you Claim the value to be. Or if possible find sold examples for each of them and document value.

Otherwise you are just being a jerk trying to get other people to do the work for you.

I am usually entertained by Frenchy threads. Almost always regret posting in them.

 It's a lifetime of working on cars part time. A lot of it is junk just given to me because they wanted it gone.  
    As scrap metal if I brought everything in I'd expect to get $50-80 maybe you think more?   Less?    But it's going to be another car  I'll build.    Robbie already agreed it was worth $300 to him, maybe you  agree or think more? Less?  
And After ( or maybe before) the challenge I want to go top speed racing. At Bonneville.  Nope, not going to set any records. Don't care! just want to see how fast she'll go. 
      Then run at Watkins Glen and Elkhart Lake. Again I don't care how far down I finish. Just want to do it. 
   Since I can run in the undocumented class and I know I'll be under the $2000 limit.  It's not important.  It would be nice to be judged. But everyone there will form their own opinion anyway. 
  

In reply to frenchyd :

I like your idea. 
 

Honestly, I think it's a bit of a pain in the butt to do a full blown budget per the GRM rules. You could spend a LOT of energy fighting things that don't make a lot of sense to you, and create a lot of aggravation. 
 

If I was you, with the experience you have and the parts you have, wanting to do this, do it YOUR way. The new rules now allow it without a budget. You will find the budget process difficult and annoying. 
 

I'd build it, bring it, make a big poster showing the breakdown of the costs, stand next to it and make friends with every single guy who starts to talk with you about it and drool over your car. 
 

Don't worry about the budget or the judging. It's a huge amount of work with very little reward. 
 

But your car will be appreciated. 

"built out of the stuff I had in my garage" has a value all its own. Maybe that's the challenge, to do it with buying as little as possible.

I'm just saying I bought a running v12 XJS for something around $400. And flipped it for much more. The buyer only wanted the drivetrain. Prices on these things are a guess at best. In Texas they're basically worthless but in Cali might be worth a few grand. 

With that said, I'd buy this junk for $300 and throw it on eBay or something and make a grand or so. 

In reply to yupididit :

So, both you and Robbie are saying you consider the FMV to be quite a bit more than $300 

nocones said:

frenchyd said:

  Just Try to be nice and pleasant. Don't assume everyone understands everything the same as you do. 

What aspect of the FMV rules are you currently confused about?  Please go read the FMV section of the rules, then after reading the rules please type out your understanding of the FMV rules.  Then experienced challengers will try to explain it to you to ensure you Understand the rules the same way they are meant to be.  

FMV is a hot button issue because it can and has been abused.   I feel a build with a High mount of FMV really should be avoided.  I've tried to minimize it on my build and only have ~$10 in FMV parts.  I have some parts on my build where I simply used / assigned full Retail pricing to avoid using FMV because of my thoughts on it.   But that is MY opinion of it.  The rule is written and is pretty well understood at this point so if you are confused or unsure how to use it, just Ask.    

Well let me say I have some stuff I got free.    
  I want to use it to build a car.   There is a process called Fair market value.   Now I think that means what a normal person  person is willing to pay for that stuff. 
    
      Since normal people don't want old junk that means.  The market value is minimal.  
   Chevy, Ford, parts do have a bigger demand so even old rusty parts have a market.  Not so the less common  brands like Jaguar.  But Expensive cars depreciate like crazy and quickly become junk. Of little or no value. 
   I call this collection of parts junk because a scrap dealer would give me $50-80  Robbie thinks it's worth the $300 I suggested.    4 more people agree and I have a FMV that I can put in the book I'll create for the challenge. 

Didn't you say you bought numerous rusted out Jaguars for $300 each? 

...why don't you just declare your price paid at $300 and start building? Is it because you don't have a receipt?

frenchyd said:

nocones said:

frenchyd said:

  Just Try to be nice and pleasant. Don't assume everyone understands everything the same as you do. 

What aspect of the FMV rules are you currently confused about?  Please go read the FMV section of the rules, then after reading the rules please type out your understanding of the FMV rules.  Then experienced challengers will try to explain it to you to ensure you Understand the rules the same way they are meant to be.  

FMV is a hot button issue because it can and has been abused.   I feel a build with a High mount of FMV really should be avoided.  I've tried to minimize it on my build and only have ~$10 in FMV parts.  I have some parts on my build where I simply used / assigned full Retail pricing to avoid using FMV because of my thoughts on it.   But that is MY opinion of it.  The rule is written and is pretty well understood at this point so if you are confused or unsure how to use it, just Ask.    

Well let me say I have some stuff I got free.    
  I want to use it to build a car.   There is a process called Fair market value.   Now I think that means what a normal person  person is willing to pay for that stuff. 
    
      Since normal people don't want old junk that means.  The market value is minimal.  
   Chevy, Ford, parts do have a bigger demand so even old rusty parts have a market.  Not so the less common  brands like Jaguar.  But Expensive cars depreciate like crazy and quickly become junk. Of little or no value. 
   I call this collection of parts junk because a scrap dealer would give me $50-80  Robbie thinks it's worth the $300 I suggested.    4 more people agree and I have a FMV that I can put in the book I'll create for the challenge. 

That isn't the rule. You are using normal when meaning average. The average person doesn't want Jag parts. But Jag people might. People making coffee tables might. People making challenge cars might. What is that pile worth to them? What it the most you could reasonably expect to get for them?

Robbie said he would drive 12 hours round trip to buy the stash for $300. That indicates that $300 is WELL BELOW market value. 

 frenchyd said: Robbie thinks it's worth the $300 I suggested.    4 more people agree and I have a FMV that I can put in the book I'll create for the challenge. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said: To me, $300 for that pile is such a good deal (so much less than fair market value) 

SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I like your idea. 
 

Honestly, I think it's a bit of a pain in the butt to do a full blown budget per the GRM rules. You could spend a LOT of energy fighting things that don't make a lot of sense to you, and create a lot of aggravation. 
 

If I was you, with the experience you have and the parts you have, wanting to do this, do it YOUR way. The new rules now allow it without a budget. You will find the budget process difficult and annoying. 
 

I'd build it, bring it, make a big poster showing the breakdown of the costs, stand next to it and make friends with every single guy who starts to talk with you about it and drool over your car. 
 

Don't worry about the budget or the judging. It's a huge amount of work with very little reward. 
 

But your car will be appreciated. 

Well we both agree.  Here's the deal, I don't collect trophy's or prizes.  Well maybe a few that are special to me.   But I general I just want to play.  
     But heck I hate being a bookkeeper  the idea of documentation sends chills up my back. Brings me dread.  
Let someone else have the prizes.  I want to play by the rules but it's not about documentation it's just doing it. 
Thanks.  

frenchyd said:

SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I like your idea. 
 

Honestly, I think it's a bit of a pain in the butt to do a full blown budget per the GRM rules. You could spend a LOT of energy fighting things that don't make a lot of sense to you, and create a lot of aggravation. 
 

If I was you, with the experience you have and the parts you have, wanting to do this, do it YOUR way. The new rules now allow it without a budget. You will find the budget process difficult and annoying. 
 

I'd build it, bring it, make a big poster showing the breakdown of the costs, stand next to it and make friends with every single guy who starts to talk with you about it and drool over your car. 
 

Don't worry about the budget or the judging. It's a huge amount of work with very little reward. 
 

But your car will be appreciated. 

Well we both agree.  Here's the deal, I don't collect trophy's or prizes.  Well maybe a few that are special to me.   But I general I just want to play.  
     But heck I hate being a bookkeeper  the idea of documentation sends chills up my back. Brings me dread.  
Let someone else have the prizes. 

Start building and taking pictures and posting the story. I don't give a damn about your budget but I want to see frenchy stop bench racing and bring the E36 M3. 

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Well,   I'm going to disappoint you. I have priorities. First I'm going to finish the XJS. That's still got a long way to go.  
   When that's done and raced a bit.  Then I'll line up the parts and and start connecting chassis tubes.  
  Be patient,  it's going to take time.  

In reply to frenchyd :

connecting chassis tubes

So fiberglass body and you're going to do a tube frame?  That combo isn't even a legal car according to the Challenge rules you say that you've read. So all this thread is about you bullE36 M3ing just to talk about Jaguars. Step back from yourself and see how others would look at your actions. I think if you give yourself a honest evaluation you'd be surprised.

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

connecting chassis tubes

So fiberglass body and you're going to do a tube frame?  That combo isn't even a legal car according to the Challenge rules you say that you've read. So all this thread is about you bullE36 M3ing just to talk about Jaguars. ...

But still sounds like a cool project that we'd enjoy following and seeing.

Making fiberglass panels for the challenge is a terrible idea, make hemp ones. Purchase some seedy dirt weed, save the seeds, plant them , harvest the flower (to sell) and save the stalks to let rot then strip for fibers, place in mold, add resin and release. Then the funds from selling the flower can be utilized to offset the cost of the resin used. Document all of this and bring receipts on your intrastate adventure to Florida. 

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Part of the reason for building a Jaguar XKE is to use up the stuff in the shop so my heirs don't have toss it in the dumpster. 
I've still got rolls and rolls of fiberglass.