Pro drivers in the over budget classes

I still want to know what the cars can do-not the drivers. I say keep the pros for the overbudget cars. 

I do like the idea of some sort of incentive for driving your own car. More runs for self driven? 2/1 run trade ratio if you don't use a pro?

MrJoshua said:

I do like the idea of some sort of incentive for driving your own car. More runs for self driven? 2/1 run trade ratio if you don't use a pro?

Were the over budget cars "required" to make drag passes or did they choose to? 

I like the idea of seeing if $2000 cars can take down a GT4 or similar pervasive car in our market, how much does money really matter for speed? If my car can't defeat a modern sports car how far is the goal post? I'm curious about all of this I also feel like it makes for good editorial content for the magazine. 

I recall autox time at my first challenge being tight but it not being an issue since. In my opinion namely with the paid workers run until people are done running, make sure everyone gets an even opportunity say 4 or 6 runs, take a break, then open the grid, if somebody puts up a flyer let's count it, if the over budget cars are part of the competition lets make sure they have the same tools at their disposal that we all do. 

Tom Suddard said:

FWIW, most of the missing over budget car drivers did come back to the awards ceremony--they just came at 3pm, when it was originally scheduled, instead of 1.5 hours early when it actually happened. They were gracious and apologetic for not showing up to support everybody.

I love this

Maybe 1/2 hour of open grid before the autocross starts for fun runs/"learning the track" time. Runs could be timed, but not counted. Pros can use this time to practice as well, just not in a competitors car.

Another option is fun runs in the afternoon start as a championship. If you are in a tight battle (say top 3 in a class) you get one last  Hail Mary timed run, either self driven or pro driven, to see if you can take the lead. It would be fun to watch. 

After that-fun runs untimed, because fun runs are cool! (and ride alongs make future competitors)

Tom Suddard said:

Patrick said:

Tom Suddard said:

And I wouldn't have a problem with banning pro drivers from over budget cars--does anybody have objections? 

Do it. The over budget cars are essentially exhibition anyway with no concours etc. most of them didn't even come back sunday, they're just coming to play. It would make it easier on the pro drivers, and after all it is the $2000 challenge. 

FWIW, most of the missing over budget car drivers did come back to the awards ceremony--they just came at 3pm, when it was originally scheduled, instead of 1.5 hours early when it actually happened. They were gracious and apologetic for not showing up to support everybody.

Oh so it's my fault for making the judging run so smoothly and knocking out all but 5 cars before lunch 

I had as much fun working the event as I have ever competing. 

An observation from a professional cone collector: 

You could 100% tell the difference between when the team principals and the pros drove the cars from the stations. 

I love seeing how badly I perform compared to a good driver so I will use the opportunity to run one, let the pro take it for all their tickets, then see if I can come close. I know that I can't. 

MrJoshua said:

Maybe 1/2 hour of open grid before the autocross starts for fun runs/"learning the track" time. Runs could be timed, but not counted. Pros can use this time to practice as well, just not in a competitors car.

Another option is fun runs in the afternoon start as a championship. If you are in a tight battle (say top 3 in a class) you get one last  Hail Mary timed run, either self driven or pro driven, to see if you can take the lead. It would be fun to watch. 

After that-fun runs untimed, because fun runs are cool! (and ride alongs make future competitors)

I like all that except having fun runs be untimed.
Should still be able to know if you've improved.

QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

I had as much fun working the event as I have ever competing. 

An observation from a professional cone collector: 

You could 100% tell the difference between when the team principals and the pros drove the cars from the stations. 

I love seeing how badly I perform compared to a good driver so I will use the opportunity to run one, let the pro take it for all their tickets, then see if I can come close. I know that I can't. 

The pro was slower in my car, by half a second.  I feel like I should have just run all 6 runs myself.  

I do autocross pretty often so I am probably an outlier. 

The pro was faster last year in the BRZ on his second try.  It took me until my 3rd fun run to match his time, so 7 runs to 2.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Ok ... I can't believe I'm engaging but I'll try and be nice.  Back in the day a team showed up with a national level autocrosser as a ringer driver for the autocross portion of the Challenge.  Some other teams complained so in the Challenge sprit that driver offered to drive for other teams also.  I'm sure I'll get corrected if that story is incorrect.  That lead to the "pro" drivers.  The pro drivers are all national level autocrossers that come to the Challenge to drive some sketchy cars.  Generally a team gets 6 runs in the autocross.  You can get one of the pro drivers to do up to 3 of those runs.  It levels the playing field as the Challenge is considered a builder contest not a driver contest by the regulars.  Except Andy.  He's an exception not only because he's cool but because he's now on my team.  Plus he built his car.  

PS - There are no pro drivers for the drags.

In reply to frenchyd :

Pro drivers are drivers that have won multiple SCCA and other autox championships.  40-something among the 5 (6?) drivers there.

You have no clue of what you speak about. 

In reply to Mr_Asa :

I've never been to the challenge, so this is only worth as much as my experience.

Maybe a balance would be time the fun runs, but only tell the driver, and no one else to keep everyone in the dark about competitors actual times before the real runs. 

In reply to Stampie :

Thank you for the clarification. 
      Is the rest of my comment wrong?   
 Won't an experienced autocrosser  beat a complete novice? 
        So isn't the issue of "pro " driver  just a matter of degree?  
     Yes I acknowledge the skill required to win a national championship  and I'm not attempting to minimize that achievement 
        

In reply to frenchyd :

An experienced autocrosser that sucks goat nads will loose to a complete novice that's a natural.   What are you talking about?  Just so you can refresh your memory this is a quote from the rules that you've allegedly read many times and understand better than me.

The autocross will follow standard autocross rules. Each cone knocked over adds a 2-second penalty to the run time. An entry’s fastest single run (regardless of driver) will be used for scoring. Entries will be allowed a maximum of six autocross runs. Pro driver runs count towards this six-run limit

We will again offer pro drivers for those who are not Mario Andretti. Entries will be allowed a maximum number of three pro driver runs. Prefer to drive your own car? No problem–you are not required to let professional drivers drive your car.

Pro drivers and entries that have made fewer than their guaranteed minimum number of runs will be given priority access in staging lanes.

In reply to Stampie :

Disengage, my friend. You'll be here forever. 

Mr_Asa said:

MrJoshua said:

Maybe 1/2 hour of open grid before the autocross starts for fun runs/"learning the track" time. Runs could be timed, but not counted. Pros can use this time to practice as well, just not in a competitors car.

Another option is fun runs in the afternoon start as a championship. If you are in a tight battle (say top 3 in a class) you get one last  Hail Mary timed run, either self driven or pro driven, to see if you can take the lead. It would be fun to watch. 

After that-fun runs untimed, because fun runs are cool! (and ride alongs make future competitors)

I like all that except having fun runs be untimed.
Should still be able to know if you've improved.

Apologies, my mistake ,I completely agree: the intent was  unscored not untimed. 

Mike_Simmons said:

In my humble opinion, the pro driver runs in the over budget classes should be instructor runs and not count as an official timed run. Last year in GTW I lost the 1st place $500 to a pro driver in a competitors car. This year the top 2 spots in GTW where driven by pro drivers. I tried to "level the playing field" using a pro but he coned the run away. If clean I would have won. I get using one of the guys to set the bar and show us what our cars are capable of but those should not count toward placement. I came away feeling pretty horrible about using a wringer to be competitive. The format makes perfect sense for the under budget competitors, but the over budget classes should rely on the driver and the their car. Please consider this format change for 2024.

I would be OK with this format change. This was my first challenge, and my first post on here, so hello everyone. Although I was a bit "salty" (that's how Mike described my mood, lol) at the end of the day, I knew the rules going in, and I can only fault myself. I got to the event 10 minutes past 8. I signed in, got my car ready ASAP, got held up with a pretty long tech line, then I got to the the start only to find out, walking the course was closed. I pleaded to get at least one ride on the scooter around the track and ended up doing 2 super fast ride-throughs. So right there, not much time to analyze the course at all. I knew right away, if anyone in my class used a pro driver with better knowledge of the course, I would be toast. I gave it my best and came in third to what I believe was 2 pro drivers. It was what it was, good job pro drivers, I think this was all on me for not getting ready soon enough and my nerves getting shot. So my thinking is, adjust the rules for a bit more than an hour from gates to start, keep the pros on the "under-budget", or bring better pros next year cuz, I only got beat by .786 and .772 seconds, ouch.... lol!

In reply to the Unlimited Class :

Not trying to be argumentative but more just trying to figure this out.  I assume (makes an ass out of me not you) that you guys are normally competing against each other as the driver of your own car.  You guys don't fly in pro drivers to prove your car is faster than your buddy's right?  Seems that no pro driver for you guys fits what you do.  For us budget Challenge builders we're actually trying to prove that our car is the better car than the other people.  That's why pro drivers make sense for us.  Do I have this right?

Edit - I also agree that gates open to tech to drivers meeting to first group tends to be way to much in way to little time to walk the course.

In reply to Stampie :

Yes, you have that 100% correct. 

In reply to Stampie :

We are totally always competing against each other in building up a faster car, driving it faster, and friendly trash talking. I can fully understand the point of the budget class and the pro driver angle. If this was a regatta instead of Motorsports challenge, and we were sailing a boat that me and my team built, I would want my team to have some experienced sailors because I know nothing about being a good sailor (...Bobby Peru hates sailors, BTW). So, yes I understand what you are trying to accomplish, yes you have it right, and no, I do not think you are being argumentative. 

Okay, I've updated the rule:

We will again offer pro drivers for those who are not Mario Andretti. Under budget entries will be allowed a maximum number of three scored pro driver runs. Prefer to drive your own car? No problem–you are not required to let professional drivers drive your car. Over budget entries may use pro drivers for instruction, but these runs will not be scored.

Tom Suddard said:

Okay, I've updated the rule:

 

We will again offer pro drivers for those who are not Mario Andretti. Under budget entries will be allowed a maximum number of three scored pro driver runs. Prefer to drive your own car? No problem–you are not required to let professional drivers drive your car. Over budget entries may use pro drivers for instruction, but these runs will not be scored.

Great news, thanks Tom!

Good change.  The Pro Drivers are there to extract max performance out of the build cars.  The over budget cars do not apply.  

I'm going to piggyback on the discussion for a moment: Did I hear JG announce that a competitor (who hadn't completely used all of their 6 runs yet) could get a timed run recorded during the fun-run session if they needed it?