K24 Corvair

In reply to chris_white :

Better late than never. The Suddards bugged me for decades before I joined. Especially now I want to pass on things I learned the hard way, and some others I learned so long ago they are becoming lost arts. Angry knows more about braking systems and how to develop them then I do. I learned metallurgy the hard way, but I absolutely studied suspension design and chassis structure from the middle 1960s. I got to apply all of that in the last 3 decades, and learned a lot more on the practical side of what fails and how when your driver meets the wall instead of the checkered flag.  As for Corvairs, I always thought the engine was a let down, and in the later cars an absolute drag on the car, so I am on board for any swap. I was equally let down by the Crown conversions I have seen, and I even have driven one. I barely fit in, and I am 5'9". It did go and handle well with stock Corvair suspension. Angry's solution is far superior to Crown. I am also a big fan of transverse power trains. The efficiency loss with the spiral bevel gears is 3% that will never be regained. I have a local customer as well with a K24 swapped Lotus Elise S1, still normally aspirated. I decline to work on other people's engines any more. In and out OK, but leave me to the chassis.

I hate the idea of having to crawl into the back seat to work on the motor, which is why JB Granger's solution is so cool:

You guys are the neighbors that I always wanted...  lol

Work update from tonight...  I got to the place where I was hoping not to get to - time to cut the "frame."  I've made it this far without making many major modifications.  Sure, I cut out the rear seat sheet metal, hacked off the shock towers from hell, drilled & sleeved the occasional hole - but (for the most part) things bolt into original mounting locations.  I could take this subframe and pretty much bolt it into another corvair.  But the front wheels don't clear - and there's no getting around it.  So it's time to cut.

Here's the plan.  Hoping that it gets me enough clearance for a good steering angle - if it doesn't, I'm probably stuck.

Once I build this out, I can see the full wheel articulation (or lack there of).  Kinda bummed about it really...  oh well, maybe should have gone with smaller wheels.  Nah.

And regarding some of the earlier cinder-block comments: Out with the old and in with the new...   I'm trainable.

Hopefully more progress tomorrow.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Agreed on every point. 

Regarding the corvair engine - that's kinda why I started this.  You could easily drop $10k on a corvair engine - but for what?  280HP that is likely to melt down...  I was hoping with this project to make a swap that was worth the time - in both power, reliability and fun.  I'm not sure that I'm still on the track - but that was the motivation.

A friend of mine's teenage son is a mechanic - and he didn't know what a corvair was.  I think that's a shame - it's a great looking car with some really break-through technology for the era.  I popped a K24 in one - and kids know what that is and I get good reactions for it.

We'll see how it goes - but I'm hopeful.

I'm may be leaning on you guys' experience a bit here in the future - so, thanks in advance.    :)

In reply to chris_white :

Very nice blocks.  Even a little overkill.  But it's always better to overkill than underkill.

In reply to Stampie :

Yeah...   in three thousand years aliens are going to come to this planet and and re-discover the pyramids as they fly over Egypt.  Then, just north of Denver, they're going to find my cribbing.  Sure, they'll be more impressed with pyramids - but I will have caused them to pause...

chris_white said:

In reply to Stampie :

 just north of Denver, 

Oh damn ... you're near Scott.  Now I understand things a lot more.

In reply to chris_white :

for the sake of rigidity during fab process, can you add at least some of the green-line material before cutting the original rail? there may be enough support from the wheelwell and other sheetmetal to make it a non-issue, but it's something worth considering.

my original plan was 275 front / 315 rear, but within the two constraints of (1) i'm not cutting the outer body and (2) challenge budget, i ended up at 245/40/17 front and 275/40/17 rear. that's certainly enough for the vehicle weight, but it lacks the visual impact of 275/315. you've definitely got me beat there!

EDIT: you probably already know that the structural elements of the Corvair unibody are galvanized, so wear appropriate lung protection when welding to it.

Open question to the group:

First, some context - What would make me most happy would be able to do the hillclimbs in PA and maybe some track days at classic road race courses (after I retire some day & if they still sell gasoline).  Other then that, it will probably mostly be autoX and hopefully some nice twisty mountain drives if I can get the blessing of the emissions people.

With that in mind - What should my targets be for wheel travel? 

I read a few things before getting this far in the build - but you can't trust the internet...

Open to thoughts.

Based on how far you've gone down this rabbit hole, would it have been possible to graft the front uprights, suspension, etc. from a Honda/Acura base all as one unit? Packaging would be the obvious hurdle besides locking out steering, but maybe there are some k24 cars with dual wishbone suspension that could have done the trick? Thinking the Accord maybe?

In reply to captainawesome :

OK, so this was a while back so forgive me if I ramble...

Initial obstacle was the track width (in combination for my dislike for convex wheel styles on old cars & the preference to stay away from wheel flares).  This put me into a place than any graft-type swap was going to require significant modifications to the donor anyway (repositioning arms, shortening axels, etc.). Add into that the the donor brakes wouldn't cut it (in this case, as in most, I'm CaptainOverkill).  I also like that this is actually build for the corvair - if need be, I could put this rear subframe (with engine, tranaxle, suspension, brakes) in another car with only 8 new sleeved bolt holes (and a bunch of sawzall work - lol).

Certainly believe that grafting-type swap could be done - by my own self-imposed limitations made this the better route.  And I'm having fun doing it as well...

Rack discussion:

I came across this in my constant hunt for cheap racecar parts. Ive seen many similar setups in various tube frame cars. Could this be the droid you're looking for?

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

The Sweet catalog is the steering designer's bible.

For your desired uses, I would like to have a range of static ride heights where good camber was achievable from 1" to 2.5". One inch for the smoothest surface you will ever see, 2.5" for Pennsylvania ordinary back road fun. Weatherly 2019 we ran EVSR at 1.5", the highest we ever ran it, and we touched a lot. Corvair's wider track I would think run it even higher, the crown in that pavement is severe. Overall travel from full compression to full droop 4.5 to 5.5". A lot of droop doesn't do anything. And a Weatherly photo with lots of droop. The pavement in the 51 years since I took the picture has gained crown, a lot, like they only added a top coat down the middle.

Progress on extending the front "frame" for wheel clearance.

Not super-happy with the way it looks - much of it is still tacked in for now (aka: I ran out of welding gas).    Next, I'll work on the upper control arm mount so that I can get the wheel mounted again and check my clearance. 

I'll decide if this is going to stay in its current form after that. 

Thinking that it might look a little less goofy once the second cross-member goes it - and it should also give me some nice mounting options for the radiator...  we'll see.  Need to let it marinate a bit...

In reply to chris_white :

That'll be fine. Maybe fish plate over some of the butt joints for added strength. Then again, the front end of a mid-engine Corvair doesn't see huge forces, as there's just not much weight up there.

In reply to chris_white :

It's great to see another crazy build here this week.  On a funny note, your Corvair kind of looks like my Falcon that so many people say looks like a Corvair.  Keep at it--the ideas here are exactly what this forum needs!

update?

chris_white said:

 

 

 

 

I think you've massively undercooked the stiffness of the rear uprights. Front uprights being boxed like that are great, make the rears more like that - right now they'll flex and bend where the rod end tabs are welded to the flat plate, and the thing will be evil and unpredictable (and probably a random direction generator with 500hp)

In reply to Gammaboy :

Random direction generator has to be the quote of the day. You are completely correct as well, I was waiting til OP got back to the rear before I commented. That said, I think his silence is him with a reading list of old but it never changes chassis design texts.

Loving this. I've mentioned before how I loathe the idea of having to access the motor via the drivers compartment, and it occurred to me that with a little ingenuity and fab skills, one could put hinges on the rear widow and work on the motor through there as well.

My entire car-life I have been tempted by the V8-Vair idea. Held back by the reality that they are not all that comforatble of a place for humans while driving.

The transverse engine might just be the answer to that. There is a person on YouTube who is building one with a transverse LS engine. Way over the top.  One of those Aero-space builds that requires you be an engineer and machinist with a full factory of tools.

NOHOME said:

My entire car-life I have been tempted by the V8-Vair idea. Held back by the reality that they are not all that comforatble of a place for humans while driving.

that's why i used the Audi transaxle.  it moves the engine rearward about 8", maybe more, vs the old-school Crown kit.  LMK next time you'll be in the Detroit area, you can stop by and check out the ergonomics of MonZora.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Loving this. I've mentioned before how I loathe the idea of having to access the motor via the drivers compartment, and it occurred to me that with a little ingenuity and fab skills, one could put hinges on the rear widow and work on the motor through there as well.

with EFI, there's not much to work on, after the actual assembly is complete.

i've been pondering this recently, because i made my whole engine box disassemble-able / removable, but the car would be a bit stiffer if it were all welded in (with a removable top, of course). powertrain drops out the bottom for big jobs.