I'm posting this from the Honda dealership, waiting on my wife's van. During an oil change yesterday, the technician noted that the front and side motor mounts were all cracked (my wife wass telling me this over the phone while getting the oil changed). I say okay, how much? ~$200 in parts and $400 in labor. 
I brought the car back this morning and ask what the book rate is for the job. The adviser looks at me like I sprouted a second head and starts talking about what point she typically sees the mounts fail. I stop her and ask what the labor book rate is for the job. She mumbles something about 3.5 hours at $90 per hour.
To the service guys on the board, am I getting fleeced? Do Odyssey motor mounts actually fail with regularity? That seems odd to me, given everything one hears about Honda reliability.
Well, I'd say that you're getting fleeced based on the fact that it should be $315 in labor, based on the time and rate. Maybe they're using "the new math"?
mistanfo wrote:
Well, I'd say that you're getting fleeced based on the fact that it should be $315 in labor, based on the time and rate. Maybe they're using "the new math"?
I mentioned that and they knocked 10% off.
Okay...now I'm pissed. I dropped the car off at 8:05 and just now (9:29 am), they just told me it's ready. I'm going to raise a ruckus, but before I do, J-man or John Brown, any sage advice on what to say to the service manager?
Honda motor mounts do go, but mine only need to be done cause the car is 13 years old and was all city miles before i bought it.
That said, Any front drive vehicle is very dependant on motor mounts for ride and drive quality. You'll notice vibrations and weird things happening with trans shifting when they are VERY worn.
You're getting boned. Unless you have a pile of miles on it, I doubt they need to be done. They are also quite easy to do, at least on my civic.
I love these..... I really do. People won't/can't do it themselves so the want to yell at the people that can/do who are trying to make a living.
$90/hr is not a bad rate FOR A DEALERSHIP. We charge $95, some up the strip charge $100-130. Jobs are billed at "flat rate". What a book or manufacturer estimates it will take to do the job. Sometime the mechanic can get it done fast, so they make money, other times they cannot and get screwed. They way people cry and whine these days, the latter happens much more than the former.
Now, on to the original question at hand: Yes, those mounts were likely toast. I know it's heresy here to even fathom the thought, but hondas quality is far from what it was 10-15 years ago. The Odyssey (like the pilot and MDX) motor mounts are good for about 50-80k miles. Sucks. Butthat's the honda we've allowed to thrive. the Accord (and TL's) are no different.
IIRC, the rear mounts on the Ody/pilot/mdx are a bit of a mother to get to. So while he may have done a 3,5 hour job in an hour and a half, he's going to be one sore puppy.
People, if you can't/won't do the job yourself, quit trying to bone the people that will. We/they are just like you, with families, hobbies and trying to make a living. You don't see us storming into your office demanding a refund because you didn'ttake as long as you said to do whatever it was you said you'd do. So have a heart, show a little compassion and for crying out loud, you don't want to get "taken" at hte "stearship" (that one pisses me off) then do it yourself and leave us alone.
EDIT: Just looked up the labor rate and it looks legit.
Bobzilla wrote:
I love these..... I really do. People won't/can't do it themselves so the want to yell at the people that can/do who are trying to make a living.
$90/hr is not a bad rate FOR A DEALERSHIP. We charge $95, some up the strip charge $100-130. Jobs are billed at "flat rate". What a book or manufacturer estimates it will take to do the job. Sometime the mechanic can get it done fast, so they make money, other times they cannot and get screwed. They way people cry and whine these days, the latter happens much more than the former.
Now, on to the original question at hand: Yes, those mounts were likely toast. I know it's heresy here to even fathom the thought, but hondas quality is far from what it was 10-15 years ago. The Odyssey (like the pilot and MDX) motor mounts are good for about 50-80k miles. Sucks. Butthat's the honda we've allowed to thrive. the Accord (and TL's) are no different.
IIRC, the rear mounts on the Ody/pilot/mdx are a bit of a mother to get to. So while he may have done a 3,5 hour job in an hour and a half, he's going to be one sore puppy.
People, if you can't/won't do the job yourself, quit trying to bone the people that will. We/they are just like you, with families, hobbies and trying to make a living. You don't see us storming into your office demanding a refund because you didn'ttake as long as you said to do whatever it was you said you'd do. So have a heart, show a little compassion and for crying out loud, you don't want to get "taken" at hte "stearship" (that one pisses me off) then do it yourself and leave us alone.
EDIT: Just looked up the labor rate and it looks legit.
I don't have an issue with flat rate jobs tough guy. I have an issue with a job that is rated at 3.4 taking 1.25. That's bullE36 M3. Nor did I "storm" in anywhere or yell at anyone. I asked to see the service manager and then asked him if we could speak privately.
Nor do I begrudge anyone making a living as you suggest. What I do begrudge is being taken advantage of. That may be fine for the folks who know nothing about the mechanical operation of cars, but I do, as do most of the folks who frequent this board. I chose to have the dealership do this because I felt that my time was more valuable otherwise. I don't have an issue with paying someone to do the work. I do have an issue with paying 3x's what it takes to get it done.
It only took 1.5 for this guy, or on this job because maybe you take better care of it. He didn't have to redrill and tap half the bolts becuase of corrosion on yours, where it typically would. Maybe he got lucky and found a way to get it done quicker than anyone else (happens all the time, and those guys don't share.).
Remember, flat rate is a guessimated average. Some takes longer, some takes less.... it averages out. Add in the fact that they knew you were waiting and had it taken longer than the 3.5 they quoted would have been pissed about it and given them a bad survey.
'Zilla covered it. The flat rate time may call for 3.5 hours, but if the tech gets finished early he still gets the 3.5 flat rate hours. Now, if it takes him MORE than 3.5 flat rate hours, guess what: he still gets paid 3.5 flat rate hours. Techs spend a LOT of money on tools to make a job go faster for that reason. They can't afford crappy tools that don't do the job or break prematurely. That big toolbox in his or her bay can easily contain $75,000 in tools and that does not include things like proprietary scanners, alignment machines, wheel balancers or the special tools that are mandated by the manufacturer.
Then there's the warranty on parts and labor. Most of them are 12 months/12000 miles. Some actuary somewhere has calculated the possible failures within that time period and that possible cost is built into the cost of parts and labor so yeah you pay for it up front.
If you have a beef with the labor, ask to see the flat rate manual. If it says 3.5, then that's what the tech should get paid. He doesn't get the full $90/hour, either. The labor rate of $90/hour also goes to cover the mortgage, lights, training, tools, service advisor salary, tech's pay, disposal fees, I could go on forever.
It always strikes me as funny that people will gladly pay $200,000 for a house and get gang butt raped on that deal (whether they know it or not) but whine like crazy about $500 to fix their car. 
Jensenman wrote:
It always strikes me as funny that people will gladly pay $200,000 for a house and get gang butt raped on that deal />
Hey.. I resemble that remark.
Now for something serious. Find yourself a good independant garage specializing in foreign cars. One in my parents home town specializes in Honda's and Toyotas. They hire only factory techs with 10 plus years of experience. Use this guy http://cartalk.com/content/mechx/find.html to help find you a mech. They'll give you great service, are more likely to be locally owned, and can save you $$$$.
Check this guy out. http://cartalk.com/ct/mechx/shop.jsp?id=14989
I know a guy here that charges $65 an hour and does good work; too bad he's selling.
Yeah, go check into the cost of materials and labor to build a house. Then compare that to the selling price of said house at completion. Then tell me who has the more (allegedly) outrageous profit margin.
Even better, check into the markup on Coca Cola, beer, you name it. It'll make your eyes bug out, particularly when it's sold in a bar. I mean, $3 (give or take) for a bottle of ber that costs maybe $.25 to make? 
It's a much smaller bite is why people never stop to think about it.
Jensenman wrote:
Yeah, go check into the cost of materials and labor to build a house. Then compare that to the selling price of said house at completion. Then tell me who has the more (allegedly) outrageous profit margin.
Even better, check into the markup on Coca Cola, beer, you name it. It'll make your eyes bug out, particularly when it's sold in a bar. I mean, $3 (give or take) for a bottle of ber that costs maybe $.25 to make? It's a much smaller bite is why people never stop to think about it.
Trust me I know.. I worked in a lumber yard and a food factory.
did you know the profit on a box of frozen soft pretzels is north of 400%.
Local garages are great, IF you can find a good one. The bad part is, WHEN that trans takes a crap outof warranty, a good service history is going to give you a beetter chance at a "goodwill" repair offer from the DPSM. If you have no history with them, why should they go out on a limb to help you?
Is it right? Maybe, maybe not. But it is. Good customers will always recieve "special" treatment because, well, they've been good to you, so you try to reach out take care of them.
Jensenman wrote:
'Zilla covered it. The flat rate time may call for 3.5 hours, but if the tech gets finished early he still gets the 3.5 flat rate hours. Now, if it takes him MORE than 3.5 flat rate hours, guess what: he still gets paid 3.5 flat rate hours.
If you have a beef with the labor, ask to see the flat rate manual. If it says 3.5, then that's what the tech should get paid. He doesn't get the full $90/hour, either. The labor rate of $90/hour also goes to cover the mortgage, lights, training, tools, service advisor salary, tech's pay, disposal fees, I could go on forever.
It always strikes me as funny that people will gladly pay $200,000 for a house and get gang butt raped on that deal (whether they know it or not) but whine like crazy about $500 to fix their car.
I did ask to see the flat rate manual once in a private office with the manager. It is a 3.4 flat rate job, according to the manual. I understand the concept quite clearly, but don't agree with the rate, because it seems so far removed from the "average". I'm not disparaging the industry nor did I refer to the dealership in disparaging terms.
Going forward, I will continue to do my own maintenance on projects I'm comfortable with and, when faced with something else, I will go to my independent mechanic who bills me actual time. Personally, I feel that is a more fair way of doing business.
As for the house analogy, you lost me. I'm not sure where I got "gang butt raped" on that deal, but, just like with my cars, I do all of my own work where I'm comfortable and when not, I hire someone who is more competent than I am. But to use your math, a $500 repair on my car, worth ~$13,000 at dealer retail would equate to a $7600 repair on a $200,000 house. That would be a big deal to me too.
Bobzilla wrote:
Local garages are great, IF you can find a good one. The bad part is, WHEN that trans takes a crap outof warranty, a good service history is going to give you a beetter chance at a "goodwill" repair offer from the DPSM. If you have no history with them, why should they go out on a limb to help you?
Very true.. When under warranty I pay for dealer service, even oil changes(Hedging bets I guess)... Out of warranty, with no preexsiting condiitons that I'm trying to get the factory to pay for, It goes to the independent. I prefer my wifes car to be worked on by a paid mechanic. It costs more, but keeps me out of the blame loop. HA!
Bobzilla wrote:
Local garages are great, IF you can find a good one. The bad part is, WHEN that trans takes a crap outof warranty, a good service history is going to give you a beetter chance at a "goodwill" repair offer from the DPSM. If you have no history with them, why should they go out on a limb to help you?
Is it right? Maybe, maybe not. But it is. Good customers will always recieve "special" treatment because, well, they've been good to you, so you try to reach out take care of them.
Very valid points and I take them well.
The worst part of all of this was that our extended warranty expired at 75k miles. We're at 83k miles.
ignorant wrote:
Jensenman wrote:
Yeah, go check into the cost of materials and labor to build a house. Then compare that to the selling price of said house at completion. Then tell me who has the more (allegedly) outrageous profit margin.
Even better, check into the markup on Coca Cola, beer, you name it. It'll make your eyes bug out, particularly when it's sold in a bar. I mean, $3 (give or take) for a bottle of ber that costs maybe $.25 to make? It's a much smaller bite is why people never stop to think about it.
Trust me I know.. I worked in a lumber yard and a food factory.
did you know the profit on a box of frozen soft pretzels is north of 400%.
Try some of your local parts houses. A lot of their junk parts. . I mean cheapo stuff. . .they can be upwards of 500%.
Sure it's a big deal. No question there. The guy doing the $7600.00 repair is going to make damn sure he makes a profit as well. If he has any business brains at all, he's going to build himself the same cost cushion I pointed out earlier. If he doesn't, he won't be around very long.
That 'gang butt raped' remark is about the markup on the materials and labor to build a house. In the $200,000 example easily 30% of that, or $60,000, is plain old gross profit markup. In some cases it's an even higher percentage. That's how they stay in business.
So if we use the 30% profit figure, your repair returned $150.00 to the stealership. The $7600.00 repair would return $2280.00 to the business.
Jensenman wrote:
Even better, check into the markup on Coca Cola, beer, you name it. It'll make your eyes bug out, particularly when it's sold in a bar. I mean, $3 (give or take) for a bottle of ber that costs maybe $.25 to make? It's a much smaller bite is why people never stop to think about it.
Even better, ask Pepsi why they charge more for a bottle of water than they do with a bottle of soda, chocked full of high dollar sweetener. Remember when they dropped sugar as the sweetner and went with corn syrup because sugar was too expensive. Sugar was expensive because of the sugar lobby that kept foreign sugar out of the country.
dyintorace wrote:
The worst part of all of this was that our extended warranty expired at 75k miles. We're at 83k miles.
Aha. The true complaint with this whole thing rears its head. 
Did you know that the service contract company (th 'extended warranty') likely would have paid the same or close to it for your repair? Of course, that would be OK. APBM (Anybody Pays But Me) syndrome.
It is a 3.4 flat rate job, according to the manual. I understand the concept quite clearly, but don't agree with the rate, because it seems so far removed from the "average".
OK, I gotta stop right here. You took ONE vehicle in, had the job done ONCE. How is that "the avereage"? You may have had a 14 year honda tech who's done so many of these he could do it asleep, drunk with one arm removed.
I had this same argument with a Honda service rep almost 30 years ago. It took 28 minutes to change a water pump that billed out at 1.5 hours. I was told the book rate was deteremined by "average mechanics using hand tools". I've grown up a lot since then. I think the whole thing was less than $130 and they fixed it as soon as I took it in, diagnosis and all. Today I would run through the dealership nekked if I could get out that easy today.
My wife later had a Lincoln that the dealer diagnosed stuff by the mileage on the odometer. 100,000 miles, you need a head job ($1,200). 75,000 miles, you need power steering hoses replaced ($500).
Hey dyintorace, I feel for ya. Nobody likes to get whacked, especially with a fairly new Honda. Unfortunately, cars need repairs and maintenance..
That doesn't mean it would make it any more fair though.
