Building the Factory Five 818

UPDATE: We have our kit (serial number 1) and our donor, so we're building our car! Check out the build progress at http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2013-factory-five-818/work-starts/

I am going to Massachusetts next week and am going to drive the Factory Five 818 for the first time. Supposedly the body is not quite done, but they have a full on, 265 hp WRX powered, chassis for me to run around in. I am taking Tommy, and he will get some pics and video to post on the site.

Looks like this whole thing is really going to happen and we are going to get the first kit to build into a magazine project car. So, looks like I need to bone up on my early Subaru WRX parts knowledge.

It looks like there are plenty of folks who have wrecked early WRXs and donor cars are out there from $2000-4000. I need to learn a bit more from the Factory Five guys as to just what parts are needed, but it looks like buying a whole car and selling off what we don't need, will be the smart move. It probably also makes sense to buy one that is stock, low mileage and hasn't had the snot beat out of it. I am sure there are some folks on this board who know a lot more than I do about these cars. Any thoughts, ideas, tips, what to look for and what to stay away from? There is a real cheap 2002 on eBay right now, but the guy claims it has a transmission whine. I read in GRM that the transmissions in these early cars were the weak link. How expensive are they to rebuild once they are out of the car?

Tim Suddard wrote: but the guy claims it has a transmission whine. I read in GRM that the transmissions in these early cars were the weak link. How expensive are they to rebuild once they are out of the car?

Exciting build! Can't wait.

If it were me, I'd ditch the WRX transmission altogether and purchase one from an STI - much beefier. The transmission in my 2005 WRX did a single day at Hallett (on street tires) and went from silent to whining like a bint with skinned knees. I also lunched the rear diff on the same outing.

The STI units are a little pricey, but if you plan on beating on the car, you'd be doing yourselves a favor. I realize that negates the idea of a single donor build.

If you still plan on buying the donor with the whine, it's worth noting that my trans / transfer case has been whining for ~40,000 miles now and still functions just fine.

Can any of us up here in the NE come and watch the happenings at FF while you put the 818 through its paces? Probably dreaming on my part but I would love to get a look at the chassis that FF has put together as well. I have never been down to FF. One of my bucket list items is building a GTM.

fifty wrote: If it were me, I'd ditch the WRX transmission altogether and purchase one from an STI - much beefier. The transmission in my 2005 WRX did a single day at Hallett (on street tires) and went from silent to whining like a bint with skinned knees. The STI units are a little pricey, but if you plan on beating on the car, you'd be doing yourselves a favor.

At least when I was paying attention, the STi transmission was not an option for the 818 due to significant mechanical differences.

I have a 2002 WRX wagon that I was going to use for the 818. I've lost faith in FFR and am going to do something else instead. It's got what I'd call "deceleration whine" in the transmission, and I've been told it's neither a big deal, nor unusual for the early models.

My WRX is between you and FFR headquarters... want to kill two birds with one stone?

Tim Suddard wrote: It looks like there are plenty of folks who have wrecked early WRXs and donor cars are out there from $2000-4000......but it looks like buying a whole car and selling off what we don't need, will be the smart move. ...Any thoughts, ideas, tips, what to look for and what to stay away from? There is a real cheap 2002 on eBay right now....

Or, look here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/2012-subaru-wrx-in-connecticut/51090/page1/

You'll already be in Massachusetts anyway...

I'm interested in this for sure. I want to know if the chassis is worth a damn.

Let me say this about the "fragile" WRX transmissions:

I bought my 2004 WRX new and drove it for seven years and 125,000 miles. I never had any transmission issues and never even changed the clutch. My friend is the original owner of the car that I posted above. Same deal. It's probably worth noting that we are both in our 40's.

I think when a 23 year old kid, who is used to spinning a front wheel on his Acura swapped Civic, gets into an all wheel drive turbo WRX (with a lot more power up front and a lot more grip everywhere) and then dumps the clutch a bunch of times, bad things happen somewhere in the middle. Then he rants online about weak transmissions and it gets retweeted around the world.

I'm sure there is documented evidence of transmission failures, but I'm also pretty confident that there are a lot more Subarus out there with 300k miles on them that have never had an issue.

I may be wrong, but I spent a lot of time in these two, responsibly shifted WRXs without any problems.

peter wrote: ...I've lost faith in FFR...

What makes you say that?

jstein77 wrote:

peter wrote: ...I've lost faith in FFR...

What makes you say that?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh He is obviously trying to keep the prices down of WRX's for the rest of us.

Woody wrote: Let me say this about the "fragile" WRX transmissions: I bought my 2004 WRX new and drove it for seven years and 125,000 miles. I never had any transmission issues and never even changed the clutch. My friend is the original owner of the car that I posted above. Same deal. It's probably worth noting that we are both in our 40's. I think when a 23 year old kid, who is used to spinning a front wheel on his Acura swapped Civic, gets into an all wheel drive turbo WRX (with a lot more power up front and a lot more grip everywhere) and then dumps the clutch a bunch of times, bad things happen somewhere in the middle. Then he rants online about weak transmissions and it gets retweeted around the world. I'm sure there is documented evidence of transmission failures, but I'm also pretty confident that there are a lot more Subarus out there with 300k miles on them that have never had an issue. I may be wrong, but I spent a lot of time in these two, responsibly shifted WRXs without any problems.

My 2002 has 65k miles on it. Mature PO and me. Shifts quite nicely, no bad synchros and no gear whine.

I agree with Woody. On the WRX transmissions and buying the white one.

Local shop here rebuilds them using the Legacy GT gearset which is a bit stronger. Not sure what they charge, but I don't recall it being too terribly expensive once it's out of the car. I'll have to ask my roommate, who changes his transmission with his oil.

I co-drove a Bugeye WRX that was fully-prepped for STX. Many 4000+RPM launches on that car. If I had to guess I'd say over 500. The owner loved to do pro-solos also. The owner eventually sold it with ~130K on it, and it never had a transmission problem. The answer is simply this: USE THE CLUTCH

When starting from a dead stop in a WRX you can occasionally feel the drivetrain take up all the slack in 3 diffs, motor mounts, u-joints, etc.. The internet wisdom is to make sure you have taken up that slack by slightly engaging the clutch before your high rpm launches.

My wifes '03 bugeye did lunch a center diff at just around 100k, but it had signs and rumors of being a drift kids toy a couple of owners back. Limited slip center diffs don't like rear wheels e-brake stopped while the fronts are spinning merrily along. The fix wasn't expensive. If they die they tend to either kill syncros (front half of trans) or kill center diffs (back half trans). I bought a transmission back half from someone with dead syncros for $125 and mated it with my front half and the car was back on the road.

My limited experience with a friends car(that gets driven hard) is that Subaru transmissions whine pretty bad half a quart low on fluid, and are fine once topped off.

Okay, I just talked to Woody and bought the white WRX for $2012. Looks like Factory 5's concept that Subaru donor cars are cheap and readily available it valid.

Until we start building the 818, we will develop a rigid test regiment for this donor car. that includes a crap load of rallycross abuse.

Woody wrote: Let me say this about the "fragile" WRX transmissions: I bought my 2004 WRX new and drove it for seven years and 125,000 miles. I never had any transmission issues and never even changed the clutch. My friend is the original owner of the car that I posted above. Same deal. It's probably worth noting that we are both in our 40's. I think when a 23 year old kid, who is used to spinning a front wheel on his Acura swapped Civic, gets into an all wheel drive turbo WRX (with a lot more power up front and a lot more grip everywhere) and then dumps the clutch a bunch of times, bad things happen somewhere in the middle. Then he rants online about weak transmissions and it gets retweeted around the world. I'm sure there is documented evidence of transmission failures, but I'm also pretty confident that there are a lot more Subarus out there with 300k miles on them that have never had an issue. I may be wrong, but I spent a lot of time in these two, responsibly shifted WRXs without any problems.

while a tech at subaru, I saw two transmission issues. that's it. One was a wrx with the most horribly burnt up clutch I've ever seen, rendering the car undriveable. Trans itself was still miraculously good. This was the car of an 18 year old.
the other was a wrx owned by someone mid20s to early 30s, with something like 160k on it, and the only issue is that the engagement point was much further up in the pedal travel than stock, because the disc was worn. at 160k, that's kind of to be expected.
I've heard several whiny 5 speeds, when I asked the service manager about them, was told they didn't do anything for it, it was just a noisy trans.

Just a little more evidence that the weak transmissions can last a hell of a long time.
edit: also forgot about a bugeye that was a little bit difficult to get into reverse. this was with 180k or so, and it was just difficult sometimes. it always went in though. this was kid owned and driven, and judging by what I heard when he left, he drove the hell out of his car. lol
these things are hard to kill.
I'd avoid cars coming up on increments of 100k, since that would be when you'd be doing the timing belt water pump HG, VC gaskets, etc etc job. Maybe a car that just had it done before they wrecked it, and the owner is bitter about the fact he just paid the dealer 2k then ruined his car? =]
the job isn't that expensive if you do it yourself, but it's kind of a pain in the ass to get the heads off and back on.

i dunno man. needing the engine, trans and wiring and none of the suspension, it sounds better to me to buy a pullout drivetrain unless you buy a wreck. otherwise you're killing a perfectly good wrx.

In reply to patgizz:
Looks like there are a ton of little bits and brackets and such that you need from the donor, though. I'm sure you could scrounge them, but it sounds a lot easier to have a donor at hand, ripe for the picking.

This is an interesting kit - I had forgotten all about it, but I've been following the Smyth G3F casually on Facebook. Looks like the Smith brothers(?) have their sights set on a very similar segment of the market. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out between the two cars.

MrJoshua wrote: The internet wisdom is to make sure you have taken up that slack by slightly engaging the clutch before your high rpm launches.

My wisdom is to avoid launching at high RPM.

Tim Suddard wrote: Okay, I just talked to Woody and bought the white WRX for $2012. Looks like Factory 5's concept that Subaru donor cars are cheap and readily available it valid.

I'm not so sure about that. This is the first WRX I have seen for sale below $4000 I believe, I may have seen one for $3500 with a blown engine.

Although maybe we are about to hit the point where they are cheap and available and Woody's was just the first.

Woody wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: The internet wisdom is to make sure you have taken up that slack by slightly engaging the clutch before your high rpm launches.

*My* wisdom is to avoid launching at high RPM.

Boooooring!

(that actually IS the plan with the Wife's '02 wagon that was treated much more gently prior to our ownership.............................right Osterkraut?)

MrJoshua wrote:

Woody wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: The internet wisdom is to make sure you have taken up that slack by slightly engaging the clutch before your high rpm launches.

*My* wisdom is to avoid launching at high RPM.

Boooooring! (that actually IS the plan with the Wife's '02 wagon that was treated much more gently prior to our ownership.............................right Osterkraut?)

You know it. I barely broke the speed limit in that thing.

Osterkraut wrote: I barely broke the speed limit in that thing.

But the transmission - I berkeleyed that up real good!

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: I barely broke the speed limit in that thing.

But the transmission - I berkeleyed that up real good!

Way to spoil the surprise.

Even if the transmission wasn't the strongest, would it be an issue in a much lighter car only driving two wheels?

But it seems that has been shown to be a result of horrific abuse, which is what I figured.

Woody wrote: Let me say this about the "fragile" WRX transmissions: I bought my 2004 WRX new and drove it for seven years and 125,000 miles. I never had any transmission issues and never even changed the clutch. My friend is the original owner of the car that I posted above. Same deal. It's probably worth noting that we are both in our 40's. I think when a 23 year old kid, who is used to spinning a front wheel on his Acura swapped Civic, gets into an all wheel drive turbo WRX (with a lot more power up front and a lot more grip everywhere) and then dumps the clutch a bunch of times, bad things happen somewhere in the middle. Then he rants online about weak transmissions and it gets retweeted around the world. I'm sure there is documented evidence of transmission failures, but I'm also pretty confident that there are a lot more Subarus out there with 300k miles on them that have never had an issue. I may be wrong, but I spent a lot of time in these two, responsibly shifted WRXs without any problems.

to add on to that: One of my good local friends has a 400(ish) wheel horsepower 2003 WRX. He's blown up the engine a couple times at that power level, and he probably has well over 100 drag passes on the car (and drives it hard on the street too). I will add that he's around my age, so not a "kid" and knows how to drive a stick.

He is still on his ORIGINAL transmission at over 120k miles, most of that at high power levels. I think he's done the clutch one time.

The WRX "glass transmission" is mostly perpetuated by kids who do high-rpm drops, powershifts, and other stupid things that might be ok for a RWD where the drive wheels can slip, but not on an AWD car where they can't.

Not saying it is a "bulletproof" tranny by any means, but I certainly think it's just fine at reasonable power levels if driven LIKE AN AWD CAR.