Keith Tanner said:
I just found out about it yesterday. There was some other stuff in the news in November as it turns out. A tuner from Roush who is a very strong advocate of running legal passed it along.
I agree that we can certainly show that it's possible to improve emissions with the aftermarket boxes, but it's also possible they could be made much worse. If someone wants to come up with a list of tables that have to be left alone and they are somehow locked down, then I can see the box being approved. But that's going to likely cover ignition and fuel tables which is what most people want to screw with :)
The range where they need to be locked down is well outside where people would need to really mess with them. I posted just the FTP75 before, but there's also the highway test. To drive both of those tests is a pretty darned narrow range of operation, especially compared to how a car is used for peak performance. BTW, peak power is actually not regulated (as long as the US06 emissions are not too bad)- but that really does not apply to Tier 0 and 1 with semi modern hardwre.
Maybe. It would be an interesting project to take on. Maybe you need to drop a line to DIY Autotune and offer up your services :) One thing to note from earlier emissions seminars is that CARB is trying to cut down on generalized EOs (for example, a fuel module that works on any car before 1990) because they're really difficult to evaluate. But IIRC there are things like generic MSD boxes with EOs so it's possible. I might go look up a couple of those and see what they look like. It's possible they are year constrained.
Plug-in tuners can also be approved, of course. The Superchips tune I run in my WJ has an EO.
I don't think this new memo introduces anything new, but it clarifies and lays out interpretations of 1A.
Keith Tanner said:
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:
- street cars that have been converted full-time to competition cars are outside the scope of the memo. However, cars that are still used on the street even rarely are still street cars. The exemption is for cars that are no longer registered and are trailered everywhere.
I wonder if they considered some sort of mileage limit on enthusiast vehicles with modified ECUs. I see many people drive their car to autoX and nowhere else (something similar probably exists in the 4x4 community). The total mileage is probably a thousand miles a year but many don't have room/money for a trailer and tow rig. Mileage is checked at the same time emissions so that part of the verifications system is already in place.
The solution there is to keep the car emissions legal. "I only drive it to and from events, I swear" isn't really something you can trust so you need a clear line :) Want plates? It's a street car, keep it legal. It's like the CA non-op registration, the car even has to be transported with four wheels off the pavement. If you use a tow dolly, the non-op is void.
Mileage is not checked annually in all areas, and once a car is past a certain age the odometer is not really trusted anyhow.
Though I understand (and I've done it) the whole "I have this car just for autox" thing, I think it's going to phase out in general. No matter what kind of racing you do, the idea of starting with a cheap used passenger vehicle is a significant compromise, and is only really a thing because we are swimming in a sea of cheap used passenger vehicles. I think that sea will start to dry up, making the starting point less desirable.
Which is a good thing, because purpose built race cars are faster, safer, easier to transport, etc, etc, etc. And dual purpose cars (street legal and racing) really are much more fun than a car that only goes to autox and back.
So, practically speaking, do I need to get an MS unit before DIY is shut down? Is this like end times for truly "doing it yourself" in our hobby?
I'm disappointed because a lot of the parts I buy are things that I have to "make fit" my application and I see those universal hackjob type parts disappearing. Although my hackjob is better than pretty much every one of my local car buddies ideas for mods.
I understand the thought process here and I imagine we'll see much more refined (albeit fewer) modifications over the counter. I can hope this will spark a new renaissance of backyard fabrication and upping the skill level of everyone across the board but I imagine "fabrication" will get worse before it gets better.
Teh E36 M3 said:
So, practically speaking, do I need to get an MS unit before DIY is shut down? Is this like end times for truly "doing it yourself" in our hobby?
It is definitely not the end. It may be the end of being able to buy an off-the-shelf EGR delete kit or some other way to circumvent emissions controls or a dirty power adder.
If I were DIY, I'd be paying very close attention to what's going on though.
And of course, there are a whole bunch of parts of a car that are not involved in emissions. It's not all about the noisy thing under the hood. If you life your life a quarter mile at a time, it's limiting. If there is a corner at the end of the straight, then you still have a bunch of stuff to play with.
Not to be "that guy", but since these are US only regulations I don't see the aftermarket drying up if parts are still available to the rest of the world. If your shop is based in Mexico it can still sell whatever it wants. It won't be able to sell these parts to US customers through eBay etc.
So is legal to K swap into older Civic?
Do I need to buy parts for the swap now? Or will they just be sold as off road only and I can just ignore that?
Keith Tanner said:
Teh E36 M3 said:
So, practically speaking, do I need to get an MS unit before DIY is shut down? Is this like end times for truly "doing it yourself" in our hobby?
It is definitely not the end. It may be the end of being able to buy an off-the-shelf EGR delete kit or some other way to circumvent emissions controls or a dirty power adder.
If I were DIY, I'd be paying very close attention to what's going on though.
And of course, there are a whole bunch of parts of a car that are not involved in emissions. It's not all about the noisy thing under the hood. If you life your life a quarter mile at a time, it's limiting. If there is a corner at the end of the straight, then you still have a bunch of stuff to play with.
It's particularly interesting to me because I am at the point in my project where I'm going to need stuff like cams, engine management, itbs, etc in the next couple months and if this has any chance of becoming limiting in any of those facets then I need to buy the E36 M3 now vice later.
Teh E36 M3 said:
So, practically speaking, do I need to get an MS unit before DIY is shut down? Is this like end times for truly "doing it yourself" in our hobby?
Probably not, as the intent of that system has always been for educational purposes. The solder yourself box of bits and pieces could be a radio when you are done if you plan it correctly, or incorrectly.
I am a bit intrigued by this FTP75 test doesn't seem so crazy if you are closed loop targeting stoich with the proper equipment. As Keith mentioned the "locking" part of it could be considered a problem if you actually want to do real tuning.
Honestly for nearly unused vehicles (<2k mi a year, classic tags, recreational use defined at the state level or federal level, etc) I don't know why any of this should still apply but I am not able to have enough business to start my lobby.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
What do you want to know about the test? (and it's and FTP75+Highway- I messed that up- but that being said, the FTP part is the hard one)
93EXCivic said:
So is legal to K swap into older Civic?
Do I need to buy parts for the swap now? Or will they just be sold as off road only and I can just ignore that?
"Off road only" is not viewed as a legitimate status by the EPA. It means nothing. In order for something truly to be considered off road only, it cannot be sold to the general public. This was made pretty darn clear in conversations with them. The vendor has to actually ensure they are not being sold for on-road use.
I don't think engine swap parts are going to come under scrutiny any time soon, especially newer engines in older chassis. But the option is there. There are state-level regulations in place covering these as well in some areas.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
What about Hondata KPro? Will that disappear? I am just wondering if I should plan on adding a turbo to my D-series instead of K swapping. Not really worried about anything other then not being able to get parts cause I live in Alabama.
I do not have that kind of crystal ball, nor do I know anything about Hondata KPro. But if it can be used to circumvent emissions monitoring, it may be undergoing some changes soon. This is not new, the EPA has been cracking down on emissions defeat devices for a while.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
It is a hardware modification to a stock K-series ECU that allows you to reprogram the ECU and datalog sensors. https://www.hondata.com/kpro/kpro-product
My other choice for a K-series would be a Motec and those are crazy expensive. Or I turbo a D-series has I can tune that by chip the P28 ecu and using an open source program. But that seems counter productive since it would seem like the turbo D would run dirtier then an N/A K series.
I would recommend you contact Hondata and talk to them instead of some random Miata guy ;)
Keith Tanner said:
I would recommend you contact Hondata and talk to them instead of some random Miata guy ;)
They said it wasnt going away since it is for off road use only.
Then they haven't looked into it and are at risk of getting a big ass fine unless they also asked for proof that it was going into a dedicated competition car.
WTB-1984-1987 Buick LD5 V6.
At least I have always had a back up plan for the 07k VW motor I wanted to put in a car.
Still think about how many already built street cars that will be affected by the enforcement of this.
preach (fs) said:
Still think about how many already built street cars that will be affected by the enforcement of this.
The funny thing is how many EPA employees have cars that don't follow this new interpretation. I used to race with a few of them. As a matter of fact, way back 20 years ago, someone at the EPA wanted to put a sticker on a GRM Challenge Spider. I thought was was not a good idea.... But that car made more than one appearance in the EPA parking lot.
There are really a lot of car enthusiasts who work there.
*insert test pipe rant*
I personally don't think that targeting a small number of people who delete emissions in order to race cars is serving the public interest. Banning things creates black markets and tempts people to become criminal.
before the "legalization" of Weed in California, kids in high school were perusing with drug dealers and not even knowing the potential implications of that. Some of them ended up in Jail for decades.
Openly legalizing more modifications would probably make more regular people be interested in mods and with today's culture they would opt to buy mods that don't affect their car registration (not passing Smog tests).
If the option for racing only parts was also available, most people wouldn't buy them over a fully legal version if the prices are similar.
as it is now, getting a tune doesn't seem illegal to the Subaru kids because they don't get a Check engine light.
What it really swirls around to in my opinion is the sentiment I came across about 10 years ago:
All cars should be required to pass a tailpipe test and that's it. The method of being clean seems like governmental overreach.
It's illegal to poop in the street. The government shouldn't be able to control how you get your food down into the sewer when you're done with it.
In reply to CatDaddy :
I think the impetus for this enforcement was all the people rolling coal. The EPA couldn't care less about your race car. I only know what I've read here on the forums, but it looks like a minority of diesels rolling coal release more emissions than the rest of the trucks combined.
From the thread Keith linked in the first post"
"The EPA is specifically going after emissions defeat devices, and no surprise it's being driven by coal rollers. But according to their numbers, 13% of diesel trucks sold in the last 10 years are running full defeat devices. They've done emissions testing on trucks with DPF deletes, cat deletes, EGR deletes etc and they're seeing a massive increase in emissions - that 13% of deleted trucks have the same effect on emissions as doubling truck sales overall"
Canceling the keystone XL, doesn't stop other countries producing, either does changing EPA regulations. I realize that my kids car culture experience will be different then mine I am just not sure what it will be. Karting for example there is one guy that makes a electric kart that essentially needs a gas generator to charge it. Tesla isn't going to dominate the track events, nor are they close to being the average vehicle. I am not opposed to technology I have ran biodiesel in my trucks. I just wonder if this is green initiative that sticks or is this another dog and pony show, with no real substance.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
I get the idea that the people in the EPA think it's helping. I greatly disagree with them.
They caused the delete fad by introducing not fully tested DEF systems. It seems to have backfired, Mostly because the repair costs for DEF related systems are extremely expensive and the fuel mileage increases for deleted and tuned trucks are so great that deleting and tuning instead of repairing to EPA specs is a no brained.
Ad to this the real polluters (don't get me started on paper mills).
What the EPA is blatantly ignoring is the Millions (guessing) of Pre Emissions semi trucks on the road getting 3-4 mpg, 6 if OTR. Tuned up and pulling 80-105k lbs up to 6000 miles a week if not more.
the EPA is following a sick and fatally incorrect ideology of incremental gains; Shooting us all in the foot in the process
OEM's were rapidly producing In-cylinder EGR technology that was so close to being as clean as DEF and the newest emissions standard previous to MY2010 that California hastily adopted killed it dead because there simply wasn't enough time to finish it. We lost Cat and International as OEM suppliers for Diesel engines over it.
Big surprise here, A metric ******* of Cat engines are still running strong blowing out a lot more "coal" than any modern pickup truck could dream of. Just not where the population is mostly Liberal other than Oregon and I Guess Arizona now.
If the EPA would step back and look at the big picture and look for seriously long term solutions and not assume that everyone is buying a new car or truck every 3 years. I drive a 1988 Truck with a Cat engine. it doesn't roll noticeable coal because it's not turned up to be "cool". I'm sure that if there were reasonable tailpipe standards applied across the board that overall emissions could be reduced way below the EPA's projections... people could turn their fuel screws down and not see any downsides other than being less redneck.
Non DEF trucks may pollute 7x more than regular trucks but how does air quality compare to 2002? What about smog levels in 1985?i
It seems to me, I just think their idea of what's really happening on the roads is wildly inaccurate and there are virtually free ways to cut back on overall emissions. But it doesn't work if the goal post keeps moving forward arbitrarily
