GRM Exclusive Reveal: Exocet Spec-A

Keith Tanner wrote: What you're witnessing right now is engineering masturbation Soo many estimates and rectally-obtained precise measurements.

Yup

Excel (or Matlab) bench racing!

ProDarwin wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: What you're witnessing right now is engineering masturbation Soo many estimates and rectally-obtained precise measurements.

Yup Excel (or Matlab) bench racing!

No kidding, which is why I can't wait to do real-world testing. Part of me wants to shout our new FE-derived chassis stiffness numbers from the hilltops, but I'm gunna keep my mouth shut until we build that testing rig at our new shop. I'll just say that I swung around a new race chassis like a jungle gym, and I'm feeling confident. We will release a hub-to-hub value. Might not be until August, but it will be worth the wait.

I like the idea that it seems more straight forward than a 7 build. I also am hoping its somewhat updated in terms of engineering.

I do secretly hope I can still get the CA dmv to license it as a 67 lotus for smog exemption ;p

Warren, apologies if you've mentioned this previously, what kind of price difference do you expect between the Sport and the Race model?

Seeing the economy improve, and the Exocet/818/Smythe enter the market, it occurs to me that California SB100 exemptions are going to get harder to ge. Oh well. I suppose if someone really wanted to, they could keep the emissions gear, and not need the exemption.

z31maniac wrote: Warren, apologies if you've mentioned this previously, what kind of price difference do you expect between the Sport and the Race model?

Kevin's still getting our costs all figured out. The Sport should be on the order of ~$700 from the Base. The Race (including the steel floors) should be on the order of ~$1900 over Base. The Race uses a lot of really expensive DOM, requires two tubes with triple-series CNC-bends, and takes an extra day of welding. Please please please don't say "but Warren said" if the prices are different from this post. The final word is Info@Exomotive.com .

Of course, just trying to get a general idea of how much I need to save up over the next 18 months for one.

In reply to kreb:

E-Rod, a FM conversion kit and a fist full of dazzlers. Or hopefully the Miata emissions equipment can be retained in the same relative position if you want to be lame about it.

Something tells me I better keep my Arizona license.

No reason to take out the cat and emissions equipment. Cat-less exhaust stinks.

Warren v wrote: No reason to take out the cat and emissions equipment. Cat-less exhaust stinks.

+1 for open cars having functioning emissions equipment! I don't feel the need to smell like I've been huffing lawnmower exhaust.

Warren v wrote: No reason to take out the cat and emissions equipment. Cat-less exhaust stinks.

Sorry that could be misconstrued if you're not in California. I'm not suggesting removing the emissions equipment as I'm a big fan of cars not being obnoxiously loud and smelling horrible.

The laws here are very specific about what can and cannot be on a car and if a company doesn't pay the California only tax for their pretty sticker it cannot be on there.

Basically if you swap an engine into the car using a 50 state legal swap like an E-Rod, the exhaust and emissions equipment would have to an approved part for the make and model of the car or the engine you're swapping in. In this case to avoid the SB100 approval process (kit car not subject to emission requirements OBDII, Sniffer, and Visual. 500 are issued per year) you would title it as a Miata with the VIN from your donor. Since a Miata exhaust system lacks the 4 extra cylinders for the LSx, you would have to use an approved LSx exhaust system and emissions equiptment from the engine to the rear axle. Since that doesn't fit under a Miata in most cases, you need to create a custom exhaust which sometimes requires that the catalytic converter be moved upstream or downstream several inches.

This creates a lot of issues with the visual inspection portion of California inspections because while custom exhausts are legalish, the OEM cat for the engine (read no high flow without an EO sticker) must be retained in the same relative position, hence the need for a fist full of dazzlers.

We had a pretty heated thread about this a couple months ago so I'm going to leave it at that.

That was a pretty specifically aimed joke at CA residents.

But you can title a car based on what is it a replica of. And I think if you google lotus 7 and print out enough pictures you might be able to get sign off on it. Then you don't need the SB100

Jaynen wrote: But you can title a car based on what is it a replica of. And I think if you google lotus 7 and print out enough pictures you might be able to get sign off on it. Then you don't need the SB100

Indeed. If you just throw enough info at the DMV you might be able to swing it. I haven't tried to convince a referee of it yet but that would be the ideal option. The really E36 M3ty part about it though is if the referee isn't having a good day, or he just hates British cars, he might deny it. Sort of an idiotic way to setup your system based on subjective feelings but hey I don't expect Sacramento to have any sense.

I'd still build one with the option open to rivet the vin onto it from the donor just in case. This is really high on my list of prospective projects, whenever it is that I'm home long enough to commit to one that is.

Jaynen wrote: But you can title a car based on what is it a replica of. And I think if you google lotus 7 and print out enough pictures you might be able to get sign off on it. Then you don't need the SB100

It's my understanding that this is exactly what the SB100 is supposed to be - the opportunity to title a car as a replica. You can't just do it without the SB100, otherwise the Cobra owners wouldn't have needed the special process in the first place There are more SB100 numbers now than there used to be, it was bumped to 750 from 500 a couple of years ago.

FYI, the E-rod isn't going to work on a Miata subframe. Not even close. Also, this isn't acknowledged much, but the E-rod is only legal for pre-OBD-II cars.

Now I'm confused Keith and my googlefu is failing to bring up any differences. I was under the impression the E-Rod engines were 50 state legal and basically identical to their LS3 counterparts. I believe the way it works with California is that you can swap motors from passenger vehicle to passenger vehicle (emissions equip retained yada yada) but not from truck to car so the E-Rod (LS3 if it's interchangeable or I might have used the nomenclature wrong) could go into the Miata since it's meant for a passenger vehicle. If not guess it'll be a few years extra before I could even think about ordering.

I glossed over the pre-OBD-II part since an early 90s Miata was the start point in my mind though that is a good point.

That was my mistake about the subframes. I should have looked at Exomotives website or 3 pages back in the thread.

Here's the SB100 FAQ: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcns.htm

You have to love how complicated California makes this. I'll stop now.

I'm pretty sure it won't fit because of the manifolds and cats

The E-Rod engine is the same as the LS3 sold everywhere and as a crate. Externally, it's the same as the one we've been stuffing in Miatas for several years, and we've done at least one install of an E-Rod engine.

But the E-Rod package also includes a specific engine computer, specific headers and specific cats, all of which are required to get the CARB exemption that comes along with it. And that's where the problem lies. The headers won't work with the Miata subframes. One has an outlet basically where the subframe mounts to the chassis, the other I forget but it's equally irreconcilably incompatible. You could probably get away with a little massaging, but it would take more than a little. Cats are a challenge as well but you might be able to make those work with the aforementioned massaging.

So why not use a normal LS3 in California in a Miata? Because you'd have to bring all the emissions components from the donor car as well. Again with the header problem, never mind the rest of the OBD-II systems.

Luckily, this doesn't apply to the Exocet as it's eligible for an SB100. And despite all the horror stories about how hard it is to get one, in nearly a decade of chatting with/supporting kit car builders, I've only ever come across one person who's tried to get an SB100 and failed.

Well that is good to know. On the other hand what are the restrictions on just licensing something as a rebody? IE leaving it a miata

In the UK, as long as you keep two of the following three, it's still the "same car": engine, rear end and "frame". Not sure where the line is in the US. Ask someone who owns a Manx, I guess!

I should mention that we are starting to recommend E-Rod engines for Miata installs when there's a concern about emissions. That package retains a charcoal canister and has rear O2 sensors to monitor the cats, so it avoids some of the questions in an OBD-II emissions check that the more stripped-down swap harnesses might have. Not that they throw errors, they just say "I don't have one of those". This is only a concern for 1996 and later Miatas, of course. And possibly Exocets built from later donors in some states.

Thank you for clearing that up Keith.

The grey area relocation of the emissions equipment could be worth a shot using a pre 1996 Miata. MotoIQ goes way into this with their V8 RX-7 based in San Bernardino CA. Worse case scenario is you have to apply for the SB100 but the payoff of not having a SB100 car would be worth it.

I'd go out on a limb and say the E-Rod emissions exemption may hold up in some other states that aren't California. Like urban areas of PA, for example. Due to the private-garage nature of our inspection process, if a different header was used for packaging reasons, but kept all of the emissions components relatively intact and functional, it would probably get a pass. All that said, I'd start a conversation with a prospective inspection shop before even starting (or buying) a V8 Miata conversion.

Along these lines - Keith - has FM considered persuing a Carb-Exempt sticker for Miata-specific E-Rod headers?

The E-Rod emissions exemption only applies to California. No other states use CARB EOs. Thank goodness

The E-Rod package does make it a bit easier to pass a typical emissions test, as I noted. Not because it's cleaner, but because the OBD-II tests are more comprehensive. You can use whatever header and cats you want in that case as long as you don't throw any codes for the cats. We've got one or two cars out there with this setup, using our cats and headers.

It's pretty easy to find out what the emissions checks are like for engine swaps in your state, just ask the state. You won't be the first, and you'll get accurate information instead of second- or third-hand misunderstandings.

The CARB EO for the E-Rod package is for the whole package. I don't think you can swap in other parts with an EO because you want to, as EOs tend to be very rigidly written. But no, it's unlikely we'll come up with a CARB exempt header for the Miata. The cost would likely be very painful and it would force us to use junkyard parts for our builds.

Holy cow the hoops you have to jump through to drie your own car on the public roads is nutty.

My checklist of things I need to legally drive my car: headlights, brake lights. That's it.

ProDarwin wrote: I quickly plugged in some #s into a accel spreadsheet I had from powertrain class in college.... and using Saturn drag #s (likely a lot lower Cd (0.345), but bigger A (1.83sq m)), it shows a 1700lb w/ driver exocet with FMII turbo kit (this dyno: http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/1995_new_vs_old_FM_II.pdf) going 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, and doing the 1/4 mile in 11.4 @ 135.2 mph Obviously just a ballpark, but interesting. FWIW, the Saturn #s from school were about 0.8-1 second too slow, and about 5mph high on the trap speed. Not sure where the trap speed discrepancy comes from, but the time discrepancy is from the launch, as it basically calculates using a rolling start at 0.1kph, so power values are effectively 0 at that point (~11 rpm). Using a constant accel (spinning tires), or constant ~2000rpm power figure for the first .5-1 seconds (slipping clutch) would probably be a lot closer to reality.

so how about 1700lbs, 300hp, 225/50 15 slicks and 3.23s?

ShadowSix wrote:

Warren v wrote: No reason to take out the cat and emissions equipment. Cat-less exhaust stinks.

+1 for open cars having functioning emissions equipment! I don't feel the need to smell like I've been huffing lawnmower exhaust.

eh, open headers ftw