Wholesale prices are up 48%. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/06/15/why-the-used-car-market-is-sending-american-inflation-soaring I don't think it can keep going. At some point people will realize that waiting a year will save them a bundle. Very few cars are taken off the road because it's impossible to fix them.
You may be able to make a profit in this thing. ;) Keep rocking the Saturn until next year.
In reply to maschinenbau :
So having gone through this would you consider an ND as a replacement? Maybe hit the FM parts catalog for boost fix?
In reply to Stampie :
I would definitely consider an ND. Hell, I almost bought one in this thread. I won't like looking at it as much, but having autocrossed them before, I'm sure I'd be happy driving one. Terrible time to buy one though, but maybe.
I would love to find this exact car in a few years with a blown engine on Copart, and K-swap it. I really love this car but I can't stand the Fiat parts under the hood and the people who stand behind them. The Fiat K24 Spider would be the perfect car for me I think. Miata chassis, modern interior, strong NC trans, beautiful unique sheetmetal, reliable 200hp NA Honda engine.
I thought the fiata and the ND were basically the same mechanically? If so, given your experience there's no way I'd consider an ND
In reply to docwyte :
The Fiat uses its own engine and the NC trans. Since all the problems are centered around the italian part and not the japanese parts, I'd say he'd be fine
In reply to docwyte :
The Fiata has a Fiat turbo engine and a Mazda NC transmission. It's the non-Mazda parts that seem to give maschinenbau trouble.
maschinenbau said:In reply to Stampie :
I would definitely consider an ND. Hell, I almost bought one in this thread. I won't like looking at it as much, but having autocrossed them before, I'm sure I'd be happy driving one. Terrible time to buy one though, but maybe.
I would love to find this exact car in a few years with a blown engine on Copart, and K-swap it. I really love this car but I can't stand the Fiat parts under the hood and the people who stand behind them. The Fiat K24 Spider would be the perfect car for me I think. Miata chassis, modern interior, strong NC trans, beautiful unique sheetmetal, reliable 200hp NA Honda engine.
Well, a new ND2 will get you a reliable 181 hp Mazda engine with a warranty and without all that swapping folderol. The NC trans can be dropped in if you're really worried about that, but Mazda has been standing behind the transmission failures.
I wonder how hard a Miata engine swap would be on a Fiata? I strongly suspect Mazda made Fiat talk to the rest of the platform instead of the other way around, so it may be surprisingly simple.
I need a CAN log of the Fiat, please :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
But then it would still look like a weird Miata :P But I agree about the trans. For my purposes of daily driving and occasional noncompetitive driving events, the ND trans would be plenty adequate.
The Miata swap into the Fiat is more than just engine due to the bespoke Fiat-patterned NC trans, so you would have to bring the ND trans with the engine too. Or create an adapter. For that amount of effort might as well get a better engine.
I saw one of these sitting in the Carmax parking lot nearby this morning. Maybe that owner had a similar experience.
Sucks to see how this has turned out for you. I'll give another vote for dump it once it's "fixed" this time.
maschinenbau said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
But then it would still look like a weird Miata :P But I agree about the trans. For my purposes of daily driving and occasional noncompetitive driving events, the ND trans would be plenty adequate.
The Miata swap into the Fiat is more than just engine due to the bespoke Fiat-patterned NC trans, so you would have to bring the ND trans with the engine too. Or create an adapter. For that amount of effort might as well get a better engine.
NC trans adapters for the ND engine are available off the shelf from your friendly Miata aftermarket supply store. Or you just bring over the whole engine/transmission combo which is so easy as to be a joke - heck, you could swap rollerskakes.
If you think this is the same level of difficulty as an engine swap from a different manufacturer into a modern car, I'm going to say you've never done a fully integrated engine swap in a modern car. It's a lot more than just a bit of metal. The hard part is the electronics, and not just the part that makes the spark plugs spark and the injectors squirt.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yeah that integration part of the swap is pretty daunting to me, since I would want the car to still act like it came from the factory. So you're right, the full ND drivetrain swap would be the easiest way to go. If I did that, would it be allowed to wear Mazda badges? :)
All of this is theoretical of course. I am not keeping this particular car. But I'd be happy to revisit one in a few years once there are fully-integrated plug-n-play kits to replace the Fiat iron (with literally any other engine). Maybe FM should pioneer the "Fix It Forever Tony" kit. I would be a seriosly interested customer 
In reply to maschinenbau :
Along those same lines, the aftermarket may also develop fixes for the Fiat engine. In other words, it may be like a 6.0 powerstroke. You buy it, replace X, Y, Z, change Q, and then it'll work right and be reliable.
I'm not sure how much of a kit there would be. If I could get a peek at some CAN data I'd know more - but I strongly suspect it would be awfully close to being a bolt- and plug-in. You'd have to bring the Mazda ECM over but I'll wager everything else is shared between the two platforms. It's pretty clear from looking at the gauges and infotainment that Mazda was in the driver's seat here. As a bonus, the Fiat appears to have more room in the nose so you're putting in a physically smaller engine.
Someone with a Fiat with a dead engine and a salvage ND is who needs to try this out :) I have neither and not much of a business case to make.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'm happy to share some CAN data before I sell it, if you teach me how to extract it. Also open to any other "reverse engineering" that's relatively low-effort for me. And I hear you about the business case. I think they made less than 20,000 total over a 4 year production run.
This is only tangentially related, but I wonder if you could put a RF roof on a Fiata body. I imagine it would involve transplanting the 124 panels onto an RF shell. I guess it's a question for about 15 years from now when someone acquires a nice engineless Fiata and a body damaged RF.
Edit: Of course it already exists on the internet.
Let me think about that. I think we have a local owner who might let me plug into his.
In reply to mblommel :
Fiat apparently asked if they could use the RF roof, Mazda said hard no that is ours. I know there's some difference in the rear quarter structure, I wonder if you could simply paste Fiat parts on top? Possibly, as I think Mazda got to set the hard points.
I think the RF roof would look odd on the Fiat. They're styled to different scales.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yeah, I dunno if I'd personally like it. I'm not a huge fan of the Fiata's styling anyway, but that's down to personal preference. The conversation about swapping parts back and forth piqued my curiosity.
Made it home without exploding coolant. Just going to park it and wait for Carvana. This car is so much nicer than my Saturn, but man I forgot about the wind noise. Even my 20-year-old Saturn is quieter on the highway. Miata RF might be the one for me.
Say goodbye to your weird family!
I'll take an XXl Tshirt with this shot on it when they're available.......
maschinenbau said:but man I forgot about the wind noise. Even my 20-year-old Saturn is quieter on the highway.
That is a really powerful statement, given that Saturns were pretty good cars hampered by horrible NVH.
In reply to maschinenbau :
You can take the RF for a spin when you come to pick up the rest of the Saturn parts!
eastsideTim said:Read an article today that wholesale user car prices are starting to level off. Definitely a good time to get out from under it. Might be lucky and hit the peak valuation.
So, Pete buys an RS3 in 2023?
Over the weekend I learned that for 2021, Mazda is adding Deep Crystal Blue to the Miata. I kinda love it. It looks the same as my Fiat's Mare Blue, but more sparkly. I also got to sit in toonarmy's RF. Now that I've owned and driven my Fiat for a while, I better understand the seating adjustments and ideal position. Basically I fit way better than I originally thought.
So I might buy a brand new 2021 ND2 RF in blue.
Obviously a lot of upsides here, including longer warranty, LSD, Bilsteins, premium sound, low probably of exploding on the highway, more than 1 service tech in the city, and other stuff my Fiat didn't come with. Only downside, aside from a much higher price, is that the blue color is available only on the GT trim, which is more expensive and comes with leather seats. I think I would prefer cloth, but honestly I've just never known anything else so I'm just afraid.
I'm in no rush, since the "car shortage" doesn't seem to be affecting new Miatas. There are plenty of 2021 blue manual-equipped RF's within 300 miles. In fact the Mazda dealer that sold me the Fiat already found me one he can get. Just waiting on Carvana's Fiat Removal Service now...
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