Learn me: Street-legal track beater

I know this topic has probably been done to death, but some pointers would be appreciated as I am new and clueless.

I'm on the hunt for a track car that I can drive to/from the track. Currently I'm focussing on Miatas, E36 M3s and 325is. Budget is somewhat flexible but as it increases, wife-rage also increases. I'm aiming to keep it under $7500 as a hard cap but less is better. I am a tall gentleman so stuff like Miatas need to have seats that are thin enough for me to cram myself in.

Current candidates are:

1995 M3 - $4500 - pretty much stock

1995 325i - $3750 - fair number of upgrades, like the fan conversion, exhaust, suspension, LSD

1990 Miata MX-5 - $7000 - tons of work done. Also more than I realllly want to spend, although I could swing it with some spousal sweet-talking.

My goals are pretty modest for this car - I just want something I can drive to Buttonwillow/Thunderhill and drive around in circles at a HPDE. Safety is more of a priority than speed for me at this point. Once I've gotten some time on the track under my belt, plus some formal training, I'm most likely going to dispose of this car and get something I can run in a series (SRF, SpecE30?).

Any thoughts? Is the Miata overkill for a newb like myself? Should I pony up the extra money for the M3 or just go with the 325i that seems a bit more sorted?

I've had Miatas and '95 M3s. If you are a tall guy like me, the Miata really isn't your best choice. Absolutely no way to get a good seating position with a cage and I wouldn't track a Miata without. YMMV

The E36 M3 is a great track car. I have bought and sold several and there is no way you are getting a track ready M3 for $4500. Parts are available and are reasonably priced, but on either E36 you are going to need to redo brakes, suspension, bearings, belts, tensioners, hoses, radiator, waterpump, the Vanos will need work, clutch, guibo, ball joints/control arms, stainless brake lines. ABS usually isn't functional anymore, so you'll need to trouble shoot that. You will spend at least $4500 getting the car prepped for a safe, fun track day and that's if you do all the work. That doesn't include a racing seat, harness or roll bar.

Track days are not cheap and you will be wasting your money if your car breaks down. I paid $4500 for my M3 which had minor front end damage. I put well over $15000 additional into the car. It was reliable as a 5lb hammer. Never quit on me. It started as a street car, driven to the track and ended up a gutted race car that I trailered to the track. I did all the listed prep above, plus adapting E46 ABS to the car, a E46 oil cooler, CF sunroof panel, really too much to remember. Great cars. At one time there were 5 of my friends driving E36 M3s at Sebring.

First off I really appreciate you taking the time to answer - I think you have saved me more than a little trouble.

Realistically I think I'll need to do a fair bit more research before jumping in. If you were looking for a track-ready E36, where would you look? RacingJunk?

What are your thoughts on this one? Seems like it ticks a lot of the boxes you mention - better starting point?

Again, really really appreciate the info, super useful. Sounds like I'll be adding another zero to the budget and putting a bit of that aside for flowers for the wife.

Are you in the bay?

I run with NASA Norcal with some regularity - you should just come out to the next track day at Sonoma and see what's out there - you can usually get a ride along - go on parade laps (i.e. unhelmeted driving at the race track in really any vehicle) - and generally hangout.

You can ping me directly if you're interested.

I assume there's a particular Miata you're looking at? Bring your helmet and go sit in it. If you're 6' or shorter it's possible to get below a soft-top-compatible roll bar but it takes a bit of work and you'll be bolting a seat directly to the floor with the factory seat mounts cut out. Taller than 6' and you probably need to cut into the floor to add a lowering pan.

If I were building a track car from scratch, I probably wouldn't build another Miata. Partly this is because I've been there, done that (I've owned mine for 18 years now and been tracking it for most of that time), but practical considerations about fitting in there with a cage are another part of it. I'm 6', and I just don't fit in Miatas with cages, my head wants to be in the same space as the left-side above-window bar.

That said, if you're driving it to the track, you don't want a cage. Cages don't mix well with heads that aren't wearing helmets.

If you're just starting out (and fit), a Miata is a good choice. The low power and good handling mean it's very easy on tires and brakes, so consumables cost is low, and stock motors are pretty reliable at the track. Start adding boost and that all changes, though.

How bout this, if you fit.

Or this

Or various salvaged s2000 that were salvaged because seats were stolen. Or high milage clean title s2000.

If this won't be your daily, you could look for a turnkey race car from a light prep class for maximum bang for your buck. Put a muffler on it and go.

Personally, I'd say hold out for a nice M3 toward the top of your price range and call it good. You should be able to find one that has had all the BMW stuff addressed if you're patient and ready to pounce. The E36 M3 is a wonderful car to drive on the street or track.

I'm asking this seriously because I don't know: what's wrong with starting with a stock 325i or similar car of choice and driving it to, and at, the track and upgrading things as needed?

ebonyandivory wrote: I'm asking this seriously because I don't know: what's wrong with starting with a stock 325i or similar car of choice and driving it to, and at, the track and upgrading things as needed?

Nothing. If you go that route, I'd start with a 328i. There are some basic upgrades that will get the M52 output close to the US M3.

Basically, all of the tricks that allow these cars to dominate in Chumpcar because "no M3s allowed."

Take a hard look at the rear trailing arm bushing pockets for corrosion or metal fatigue. There are weld-in reinforcements available. Fresh RTAB(ushings) are important.

There is a special tool that you can usually rent or borrow that makes replacing them on the car pretty easy.

ebonyandivory wrote: I'm asking this seriously because I don't know: what's wrong with starting with a stock 325i or similar car of choice and driving it to, and at, the track and upgrading things as needed?

This is really a good way to go. To start with you want something reliable with predictable handling and affordable tires. That's all you really need. This whole motorsports thing isn't entirely rational (says the guy who road races a big block Camaro) so I also recommend a car that gets you excited. It should also be something that's cheap enough that you can stuff it into a tire barrier and still pay your mortgage. It's rare but cars do get wrecked at HPDEs.

ebonyandivory wrote: I'm asking this seriously because I don't know: what's wrong with starting with a stock 325i or similar car of choice and driving it to, and at, the track and upgrading things as needed?

If you have to ask....

You don't get to "toodle" around the track. You will have an instructor that will be telling you to "floor it" at every opportunity. He will have you wait until the last second and then brake to the point of lock up. Then you will repeat for every segment on the track. No 25 year old beater can take that without adressing cooling, brakes, suspension and tires. Sure, you can show up but you better be ready to pay for a tow to get home.

Go to your closest track, look over the cars, especially ones you are interested in. Talk to the drivers. Most will be more than glad to tell you their experiences, what works and what doesn't. Most will tell you that cooling, brakes and tires are the most important. Suspension needn't be expensive. Forget about adding power, just take care of basic maintenance items like tensioners, belts, fluids and a basic tune up.

Guys are always moving up to faster cars. Look to buy a sorted car that does track duty. I know of 3 fully sorted E36 M3s that sold for less than $8000. One of them was mine. The market for a track prepped car isn't that great. Ironically, the more track prepped, the smaller the market. If you can live with no AC, cruise control, stereo or sound deadening on your drive to the track, you can find some pretty good deals. Shop CL locally. Don't buy a car you have never seen. If you live in any decent sized metropolitan area with race tracks in the vicinity, the cars will show up on CL.

My son and I both sold our M3s and moved up to street driven C5 Corvettes. We drive them to the track and they have all the creature comforts that came stock. They are loud, and mine has 440hp at the rear wheels.

This track stuff is a slippery slope.

Another piece of good advice that I learned, "Don't take a car to the track that you are not prepared to lose". Accidents happen, your insurance won't cover it unless you buy special track coverage. When you try to go on a shoestring, it's no fun. You will be constantly worrying about how much it going to cost to fix the stuff you will break. And how you are going to explain it to your SO. My advice is sit down with the SO and come up with an annual budget for your hobby. That way there are no unpleasant surprises. When you run out of money for the year, you wait for next year;)

One question that needs asked is if this "street driven track car" is going to ONLY be driven to the track, or will it be a weekend car or a daily? If this thing will see daily usage or weekend usage (especially with the wife!) then mods needs to be conservative. This can be difficult. Brings a whole host of "do I go balls deep, or leave it stock?" Questions on certain items.

Like springs and shocks. The wife WILL NOT tolerate her upper torso area jiggling around because you installed coilovers. I know mine didn't, so I went back to way less aggressive springs.

The reason that M3 is $4500 might have something to do with being an automatic.

I'd say it depends on your experience. Personally, as a track-day neophyte, I'd probably kill myself in an M3. Or any RWD car, for that matter. For better or worse, I just don't have as much experience with RWD cars to really push one to the limit in situations where screwing up can mean burying the car into a tire wall (or something less forgiving). Maybe I'm being a wuss. I prefer to call it being realistic. Would I like to eventually rip around a track in a RWD car, executing perfect 4-wheel drifts? Sure. But learning to crawl in a more familiar FWD car seems like a better first step for me than trying to sprint out of the gate.

I'll sell you my RX8!

That's what I bought it for anyway, and I can tell you it does do great as well as it's a fantastic first RWD car, best way I can describe it is an NC miata with more power, hardtop and a more attentive engine (in fact you can swap many things between the two chassis)

In regards to the rotary thing, so long as you pay attention to it and take care of things preemptively (coils, plastic engine bits, plugs, fluids) it will be arguably as reliable as an E36 M3 with slightly less running cost imho.

Good luck, if you want to meet at VIR to pick it up let me know

Don't discount an automatic E36 M3. It has a good final drive and probably hasn't been over-revved. It's easy to convert to a stick, too.

But all of the advice here is great. Yes, I'd get something that's reliable, safe, easy on brakes and tires, and reliable. Yes, I put reliable on there twice.

jmwr wrote: Budget is somewhat flexible but as it increases, wife-rage also increases.

Say What?

Several years ago, when CRX prices were reasonable, we built this as a low-buck track rat.

It already had the engine swap, so we just worked on the little things--like bigger brakes. It ran a 15-inch tire, and was easy on them, too. Plus the hatch could easily carry a set of tires plus everything else needed for a weekend at the track.

The car was easy to drive, too. We probably could have made it a little faster, but also a little more nervous at the same time. It was a good car.

This thread is throwung me off with the E36 M3 E36 M3

How tall are you?

I'm 6'2 and I'm about to start HPDE-ing my '92 NA. I'm not even using thin racing seats, just modded brackets and a foamectomy.

I'd be sure that the car has a 'hardcore' m2 bar for both legality and height reasons.

The answer is always miata. Cheap tires cheap parts cheap everything. Reliable.

I don't know what you should do. But here are a couple things that have happened to me in 50-plus track days, if you think they're relevant to your situation.

Around here, all the non-M vs M-type E36s that you can buy off Craigslist have tired suspension, and they all need the same extensive package of replacement bushings to get them into reliable track-able shape. The extra step you have to do for the non-M cars is to weld some reinforcement plates onto the rear chassis. When you replace the front dampers, you can switch to the M type. Buy some M3 springs and an M3 front sway bar, and you're pretty much an M3 suspension-wise. The M3 has bigger brakes and wheels, which mostly means you will have to pay more for tires. They both need a new radiator, water pump, and hoses, right away. Ticking time bombs without that. VANOS is a toss-up.

A non-M E36 off the street will lap about as fast as a Miata off the street. An E36M will be faster than that by a material amount, but still not a "fast" car on the track. All 3 cars are fast enough that you won't be attracting dirty looks on the paddock, assuming you get really good at pointing by other cars promptly.

They're all 3 great cars to learn how to drive at the track. Cheap enough you won't cringe if you ding them up a bit.

I'm told buying somebody else's track car is cheaper than upgrading a street car and I believe it. I've never done it, because the wrenching is where the fun is for me. Every time I have converted a new street car to track use, there have been a few days at first where I'm not sure the car is up to the job, and my brain is more in the car than in the driving.

If you're driving to the track, you will need to bring some stuff. There is more room for stuff in an E36 than a Miata. But you may not need all that much stuff. Personally I take so much it barely fits in an E36.

There is a decent chance that you will love the track and stick with it. You will probably want a faster car before too long, if you can afford it. Buying in for cheap now will make that easier.

I started with far more car than I could effectively utilize with the skill set I had. But it was the car I had, so it was the car I used. It was expensive to do it that way, and it cut down on the amount of seat time I could afford. With the car's inherent stability, tons of horsepower, and stability control, it also prolonged my learning process.

accordionfolder wrote: Are you in the bay? I run with NASA Norcal with some regularity - you should just come out to the next track day at Sonoma and see what's out there - you can usually get a ride along - go on parade laps (i.e. unhelmeted driving at the race track in really any vehicle) - and generally hangout. You can ping me directly if you're interested.

Apparently I haven't been approved to PM people yet - can you shoot me an email at racing@j3ffw.org? I'd love to come out.

You should be able to buy that miata around 5K give or take in the real world. That is the one I would go for.

Lot of information to digest here! Thanks guys.

I think the "volunteer and see whats around" idea is probably a good one. I've signed up to go volunteer at an SCCA race on the 6th of May so I will poke around asking questions and see what people are running. I'm also going to hit up a NASA event as well.

Overall it sounds like I need to calm my tits and wait for a solid choice to come around.

A lot of you guys have said/asked things I want to address individually so I'll try quoting them in a sec... forum newb incoming.

Tyler H wrote: If this won't be your daily, you could look for a turnkey race car from a light prep class for maximum bang for your buck. Put a muffler on it and go.

This won't be my daily - I am fortunate to daily a 991 C4S. Should be strictly a track car.

jmwr wrote:

accordionfolder wrote: Are you in the bay? I run with NASA Norcal with some regularity - you should just come out to the next track day at Sonoma and see what's out there - you can usually get a ride along - go on parade laps (i.e. unhelmeted driving at the race track in really any vehicle) - and generally hangout. You can ping me directly if you're interested.

Apparently I haven't been approved to PM people yet - can you shoot me an email at racing@j3ffw.org? I'd love to come out.

See if you can PM now. I manually updated your account. Thanks for joining us, and good luck with the car search.