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frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/8/22 4:56 p.m.
spitfirebill said:

In reply to frenchyd :

a Chevy Vega was never a better idea.  

 

It sure worked out that way for me.   I owned it for a little over a year and it was wonderful,   Really brisk handling, (GT hatchback). Comfortable sleeping in the back at the sports car races.   Great mileage and never broke down.  ( didn't even use much oil). 
 I sold it because I had 4 vehicles  in SanDiego. Because of the fuel shortage good mileage cars commanded a premium  and I almost got back every last dime I spent on it.  I also sold my Jaguar race car,  my 1955 Chevy Cameo Truck with a 350 4 speed and 15x10 chrome reverse wheels. With dog dish hub caps.  

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 PowerDork
9/8/22 5:09 p.m.

I've met a few people who buy new cars and hold on for the lifetime of the car. A few. 
I've met a bunch who buy new, drive off the depreciation and warranty, then trade/sell it towards something newer/better equipped/faster/better/whatever. People rarely sell a new-bought car because it started becoming problematic. 

A new economy car isn't necessarily a bad idea. Giving a car to a 16yo isn't necessarily a bad idea. 

Expecting a new economy car to stay in the possession of a 16yo for more than a handful of years is highly optimistic. I would say erroneously so. Even if she is perfect with proper care and maintenance, you cannot see that far into her future. What may fit her needs now is one thing, what may fit her needs in 3 or 5 or 10 years may be completely incompatible, regardless of cost of ownership. Young adulthood is a turbulent time, even when everything goes to plan. 
 

If you want to set her up in a new car, by all means do it. What I would suggest is to buy it (or borrow) and simply give it to her. Stop paying her for the housework. Let her know the car is her new compensation. I'm sure with her sense of responsibility she'll continue doing her part. Just understand that she may need to replace the car much sooner than you expect and for an entirely different reason than it breaking down. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
9/8/22 5:50 p.m.

I haven't read the entire thread, but what specific help are you offering?

Is it money?

Is it your name as a co-sign on the loan?

Is it something else?

Just trying to figure out what we are arguing about. Most teenagers, especially most planning to pay for med school, probably need money above all else. $300/month won't pay for books, nevermind tuition, food, housing and a car loan. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/8/22 5:53 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Giving your granddaughter a car is a great idea. Giving her a new car is a wonderful idea (for the reasons you have outlined). And the cars you are suggesting are excellent. 
 

Committing a 16 year old to a loan that she does not need (and may not want) is a terrible idea. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/8/22 6:00 p.m.

If it's a gift, give her whatever car you think would be a good choice. EV, hybrid, whatever. 
 

If she's paying for it, SHE gets to choose. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/8/22 6:54 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I've been reading up on the Bolt (because you got me interested). 
 

Are you sure there is an incentive?  It appears to me that the federal subsidies have expired on the Bolt because Chevy has produced too many. They dropped the price because there is no federal subsidy any more. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/8/22 7:08 p.m.

When I was in my teens you could get a running old British sports car for $500 and spend endless time on the side of the road, pushing it home and working on it. You could pile up $500 and gas money by washing dishes after school.

Not the best idea, but it worked for me back then. Now it's $300 a month for a used car and a cosigner instead of $300 cars. Times have really changed and not for the better.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
9/8/22 8:09 p.m.

She is 16. She can not get a loan with or without a co-signer. She might not even be able to be on the car at all unless it's paid for cash. 
 

I'll do the math. The cheapest Bolt advertised near you is $27,684

$27,684 - price

$1,800 MN tax

$500 tags/fees (guess)

$29,984 total  

$2k down (guess)

$27,784 financed at 72 months, 3% loan  

That is $390 a month.

You need $8k down to be at $300, $9600 if the loan is 6% APR

Does she have $8-$9k down? Do you?

as posted above, exactly what "help" are you providing? Just advice, or $$?

How about you take the 6 year loan, and let her work it off by cleaning the house, deduct $390 a month until it's done? Why is that not a good idea?

 

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
9/8/22 9:24 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I've been reading up on the Bolt (because you got me interested). 
 

Are you sure there is an incentive?  It appears to me that the federal subsidies have expired on the Bolt because Chevy has produced too many. They dropped the price because there is no federal subsidy any more. 

The latest huge legislation to pass through Congress included expanding the tax credit for EVs with some qualifications about where they're assembled, how affordable they are and where the batteries are sourced. The gist of it is that the Bolt will once again qualify for the $7500 tax credit starting Jan 1, 2023. But you have to have enough income to pay at least $7500 in taxes to get the full credit.

Also new with the latest changes is that used EVs can qualify for up to $4000 in tax credit, and beginning in 2024 the credit will be applied at the point of sale rather than when filing that year's taxes. PHEVs qualify for at least a partial credit as well.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/8/22 10:15 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Good info 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/8/22 10:17 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

You forgot the insurance. Young driver. Could be $200 more per month. 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
9/8/22 10:50 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

You forgot the insurance. Young driver. Could be $200 more per month. 

Well aware, figured it wasn't worth mentioning because the first part is not happening. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/9/22 2:51 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

She is 16. She can not get a loan with or without a co-signer. She might not even be able to be on the car at all unless it's paid for cash. 
 

I'll do the math. The cheapest Bolt advertised near you is $27,684

$27,684 - price

$1,800 MN tax

$500 tags/fees (guess)

$29,984 total  

$2k down (guess)

$27,784 financed at 72 months, 3% loan  

That is $390 a month.

You need $8k down to be at $300, $9600 if the loan is 6% APR

Does she have $8-$9k down? Do you?

as posted above, exactly what "help" are you providing? Just advice, or $$?

How about you take the 6 year loan, and let her work it off by cleaning the house, deduct $390 a month until it's done? Why is that not a good idea?

 

Nailed it. 

I was going to go into more detail but figured what's the point?

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 7:51 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

She is 16. She can not get a loan with or without a co-signer. She might not even be able to be on the car at all unless it's paid for cash. 
 

I'll do the math. The cheapest Bolt advertised near you is $27,684

$27,684 - price

$1,800 MN tax

$500 tags/fees (guess)

$29,984 total  

$2k down (guess)

$27,784 financed at 72 months, 3% loan  

That is $390 a month.

You need $8k down to be at $300, $9600 if the loan is 6% APR

Does she have $8-$9k down? Do you?

as posted above, exactly what "help" are you providing? Just advice, or $$?

How about you take the 6 year loan, and let her work it off by cleaning the house, deduct $390 a month until it's done? Why is that not a good idea?

 

You forgot to deduct the $7500 tax credit. ( yes,  we qualify)  but other than that  you are pretty close. 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
9/9/22 8:06 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

The $7500 tax credit is a $7500 deduction of off your taxable income, not a discount on the car. It does not change my numbers at all. It's not a rebate. No one sends you a check, or subtracts the $7500 from the price. 
 

i pointed that out earlier, but you conviently ignored it. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 9:27 a.m.
STM317 said:
SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I've been reading up on the Bolt (because you got me interested). 
 

Are you sure there is an incentive?  It appears to me that the federal subsidies have expired on the Bolt because Chevy has produced too many. They dropped the price because there is no federal subsidy any more. 

The latest huge legislation to pass through Congress included expanding the tax credit for EVs with some qualifications about where they're assembled, how affordable they are and where the batteries are sourced. The gist of it is that the Bolt will once again qualify for the $7500 tax credit starting Jan 1, 2023. But you have to have enough income to pay at least $7500 in taxes to get the full credit.

Also new with the latest changes is that used EVs can qualify for up to $4000 in tax credit, and beginning in 2024 the credit will be applied at the point of sale rather than when filing that year's taxes. PHEVs qualify for at least a partial credit as well.

The tax deduction of $4000 is one reason I included a used Volt as an option.   
   It's not my first choice but since   I believe she should have a choice I've included it in her options. 

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
9/9/22 9:30 a.m.

I'm not read up on these tax deductions but I thought they didn't apply to used cars because the original owner received the deduction?

Purple Frog (Forum Supporter)
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
9/9/22 9:34 a.m.

If you aren't going to go "cool" with a NC Miata, then I'd put her in a 10 year old Impala.  Tough as nails.  US parts.  Lots of crash protection.  Ease of use.  Relatively Inexpensive.

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT Dork
9/9/22 9:37 a.m.

frenchyd,

I've read the entire thread.  I respect you and what you're trying to do.  I've put some thought into your question.

To re-state, your 16-year-old granddaughter has many accomplishments and has the potential for more and even greater accomplishments.  Her family doesn't have a lot of money and you want to help her achieve her potential.  I think this is a good thing and I applaud you for it.

1.  What is her skill level as a driver?  I've sat with hundreds and hundreds of teen drivers and at least half of them haven't yet developed a basic level of competence or confidence.  So many teens wreck their first car.  Some people (teens and adults) never develop proficiency as a driver.  It's up to you to decide if she has the competence and confidence for a new car.

2.  You're thinking long-term, 10-15 years, and things can change fast for a 16-year-old.  How long has she wanted to be a doctor?  If her anticipated commute is 5-7 miles for her undergrad and she's close to home, I think she can get by with something less than a new car.  If med school takes her far away, solve that problem in four years when the car market is hopefully less out-of-balance.

3.  This is only my own personal parenting belief, and my kids are still young, but I feel that a new car at 16 years old can set an expectation of standard-of-living / lifestyle that makes it more difficult to be appreciative and content in the future.  I bet many of us GRM folks would attest that starting with "rougher" cars when young helps us to appreciate nicer cars (and nicer other things) later in life, and to be more content with less material things.

4.  Training for the Olympics is probably mutually exclusive to going to medical school.  Maybe she can delay med school until after her hockey career but has she thought through how to navigate both?  If med school is delayed that might change your decision on the vehicle.

5.  I would focus on what she needs, which for the next four years is likely to be transportation over a short distance, often in inclement weather, but not far from home.  She doesn't need extra expenses for gas, insurance, maintenance and repairs, or headaches due to unreliable transportation, and she definitely doesn't need extra pressure to make more money or to make loan payments.  She has an arrangement with you for $300 a month.

6.  My suggestion is you make her an offer where you provide her transportation in exchange for her cleaning your house twice a month.  In this scenario, you choose and own the car yourself, pay or finance it however is best for you, you retain title, you cover all the expenses including insurance and maintenance, and gas, too, if you want.  She gets transportation as long as she cleans.  This gives you both lots of flexibility.  If her needs change, if housecleaning doesn't work out any more, she can move on and you still own the vehicle.  If you want to change your stable of cars you can, just continue to have a vehicle available for her.  She could continue to drive your truck until gas costs make it advantageous to put her in something more fuel-efficient or electric.  After her undergraduate schooling if she goes away to medical school you can gift her the car, or keep the car and simply waive the cleaning requirement, whatever you think is best at that time, or if she doesn't need a car in med school then the car reverts back to you.  She gets the transportation she needs in the near future without being locked in on a loan, without being committed to a particular vehicle for the 10-15 years it takes to make a new vehicle financially advantageous, and she avoids the stress and headache associated with the expenses and maintenance risk.  You get to decide whether new or used, gas or electric, car or SUV, makes the most sense.

Just my thoughts and they're worth what you paid for them.

 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 11:33 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

In reply to frenchyd :

The $7500 tax credit is a $7500 deduction of off your taxable income, not a discount on the car. It does not change my numbers at all. It's not a rebate. No one sends you a check, or subtracts the $7500 from the price. 
 

i pointed that out earlier, but you conviently ignored it. 

Well to clarify.  As of Jan 1st  you get a choice of a deduction or tax credit.   
    We would take the tax deduction and lower the monthly payment to her.  

Purple Frog (Forum Supporter)
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
9/9/22 12:01 p.m.

I speak from experience.  Don't put a kid in a new car that is going to be parked on a college campus alongside more young drivers trying to park in hard to find spaces.  Door ding city.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 12:02 p.m.
DWNSHFT said:

frenchyd,

I've read the entire thread.  I respect you and what you're trying to do.  I've put some thought into your question.

To re-state, your 16-year-old granddaughter has many accomplishments and has the potential for more and even greater accomplishments.  Her family doesn't have a lot of money and you want to help her achieve her potential.  I think this is a good thing and I applaud you for it.

1.  What is her skill level as a driver?  I've sat with hundreds and hundreds of teen drivers and at least half of them haven't yet developed a basic level of competence or confidence.  So many teens wreck their first car.  Some people (teens and adults) never develop proficiency as a driver.  It's up to you to decide if she has the competence and confidence for a new car.

2.  You're thinking long-term, 10-15 years, and things can change fast for a 16-year-old.  How long has she wanted to be a doctor?  If her anticipated commute is 5-7 miles for her undergrad and she's close to home, I think she can get by with something less than a new car.  If med school takes her far away, solve that problem in four years when the car market is hopefully less out-of-balance.

3.  This is only my own personal parenting belief, and my kids are still young, but I feel that a new car at 16 years old can set an expectation of standard-of-living / lifestyle that makes it more difficult to be appreciative and content in the future.  I bet many of us GRM folks would attest that starting with "rougher" cars when young helps us to appreciate nicer cars (and nicer other things) later in life, and to be more content with less material things.

4.  Training for the Olympics is probably mutually exclusive to going to medical school.  Maybe she can delay med school until after her hockey career but has she thought through how to navigate both?  If med school is delayed that might change your decision on the vehicle.

5.  I would focus on what she needs, which for the next four years is likely to be transportation over a short distance, often in inclement weather, but not far from home.  She doesn't need extra expenses for gas, insurance, maintenance and repairs, or headaches due to unreliable transportation, and she definitely doesn't need extra pressure to make more money or to make loan payments.  She has an arrangement with you for $300 a month.

6.  My suggestion is you make her an offer where you provide her transportation in exchange for her cleaning your house twice a month.  In this scenario, you choose and own the car yourself, pay or finance it however is best for you, you retain title, you cover all the expenses including insurance and maintenance, and gas, too, if you want.  She gets transportation as long as she cleans.  This gives you both lots of flexibility.  If her needs change, if housecleaning doesn't work out any more, she can move on and you still own the vehicle.  If you want to change your stable of cars you can, just continue to have a vehicle available for her.  She could continue to drive your truck until gas costs make it advantageous to put her in something more fuel-efficient or electric.  After her undergraduate schooling if she goes away to medical school you can gift her the car, or keep the car and simply waive the cleaning requirement, whatever you think is best at that time, or if she doesn't need a car in med school then the car reverts back to you.  She gets the transportation she needs in the near future without being locked in on a loan, without being committed to a particular vehicle for the 10-15 years it takes to make a new vehicle financially advantageous, and she avoids the stress and headache associated with the expenses and maintenance risk.  You get to decide whether new or used, gas or electric, car or SUV, makes the most sense.

Just my thoughts and they're worth what you paid for them.

 

That was very thoughtful and I sure  appreciate the obvious thought you've put into this. 
 Yes we will probably wind up owning the car, insuring it for her use. 
  As for her driving skills?   I don't know.  Both of my daughters had accidents early. One a trivial  fender bender in line at McDonalds.  The other totaled her Toyota Yaris  while texting. 
     She's 16. With her GPA we'll get a good students discount. So insurance isn't going to be that bad. 
      There is every likelihood she will attend the University of Minnesota both for college and Med school.  Med school here is good.  We have the world famous Mayo Clinic here which is only 66 miles away from her home.  For her internship. Well inside the 259 mile range of the Bolt. 
  She is financially solid. Well above the typical 16 year old.  
  It's doubtful she will pursue the Olympic path.  I'm not even sure she will follow girls hockey in  college.  While she enjoys playing and winning.  Her comments haven't been about the dedication required to perform at even the college level.  
     There are schools nearby her that have an entire program dedicated to Girls hockey and she's dismissive of them.  
      The entire 9 years I've known her she has said being a Doctor is what she wants to do.  She took all the courses needed to meet those requirements.  Even during the Pandemic she was still taking advanced courses and getting straight  A's   
 So it's reasonable to believe she will achieve her goals. 
     At this point, my suggestion will be either we "sell" her my Wife's Honda CRV,  A new Bolt, or a used Volt.   We continue to "lend" her my truck  until the new law recently passed makes it smart to  buy for us.  ( January 1'st) 

 obviously my wife will have  input and my Granddaughter can decide exactly which way she wants to go.  

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
9/9/22 12:07 p.m.
frenchyd said:
Steve_Jones said:

In reply to frenchyd :

The $7500 tax credit is a $7500 deduction of off your taxable income, not a discount on the car. It does not change my numbers at all. It's not a rebate. No one sends you a check, or subtracts the $7500 from the price. 
 

i pointed that out earlier, but you conviently ignored it. 

Well to clarify.  As of Jan 1st  you get a choice of a deduction or tax credit.   
    We would take the tax deduction and lower the monthly payment to her.  

Deducted from the price of the vehicle at the time of financing/purchase or deducted from your taxes?

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 12:40 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

It's your choice either way at least according to what I read.  You might want to confirm that it was released early this week.  
  Some states are offering their own EV rebates.  PA just announced between $3000-400 rebate without details attached.  
 I know California offers it's own rebates on EV's  which is even more generous than PA. 
   I should spend some time seeing what the discounts  are in other states.  Or what proposals are in the works.  
  Those are on top of the federal $7500 & $4000

 

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
9/9/22 12:44 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to yupididit :

It's your choice either way at least according to what I read.  You might want to confirm that it was released early this week.  

It's my understanding that you won't be able to get the credit at the point of sale until Jan 1 2024. If you make the purchase in 2023, you'd be paying and financing the price without the credit, and then getting whatever portion of the credit applies when you file your 2023 income taxes in early 2024

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