Teach me about rotary swaps

Toyman01 wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to tuna55: Because lemons is about making laps more than making speed. The Civic was bone stock and slow as hell and we still finished 10th. The t-bird was fast as hell and didn't finish. That and last I checked the seal/gasket kits were big money. Run it stock and keep it running.

See, I live in small block chevy land - I didn't realize that the seals and gaskets were big $$, I think you're right then. What gains are there to be had in 12A and 13B land by just doing intake and exhaust?

Intake and exhaust manifolds can make pretty big power gains over stock. Especially on a 12A. The 12A was 110hp stock. With headers and a good manifold you can push that over 140. Think of it like building a SBC to turn 7K and then putting stock cast manifolds on it. A rotary needs to breath. Racing Beat will also sell you the exhaust flange to build your own exhausts. Use good tube to the collector because the exhaust gets HOT. Ebay lists intakes fairly often, but even the stock intake and Nikki 4 barrel run decent if you don't have the room in the budget. Bypass all the smog crap and snatch the choke out of it. The biggest gains are in the exhaust. For 13B stuff you probably need to talk to Curmudgeon. I'm more of a carbed 12A guy. A stock NA rotary is as reliable as dirt. Don't run it hot, don't run out of oil and keep it turned up. Most of them crap out from carbon. If it doesn't see the red line every time you run it, you're doing it wrong.

Dude, 140 and a free motor and all I need to do is intake and exhaust? I changed my mind, this isn't a good idea for lemons, it's the only idea.

Please tell me it's going in the Volvo. If so give me a shout. I would be willing to drive to Greer to help with that one. I could probably even scrounge up a few parts if necessary.

12A's & 13B's may sound terrible, but 20B's sound awesome.

You can learn more than you ever would want to know about rotaries over RX7club.com.

Toyman01 wrote: Please tell me it's going in the Volvo. If so give me a shout. I would be willing to drive to Greer to help with that one. I could probably even scrounge up a few parts if necessary.

That is exactly what I intend. Resurrect the Amazon with rotary power. How cool would that be? 40% power gain with a 50 lb weight loss and reliability too!

tuna55 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Please tell me it's going in the Volvo. If so give me a shout. I would be willing to drive to Greer to help with that one. I could probably even scrounge up a few parts if necessary.

That is exactly what I intend. Resurrect the Amazon with rotary power. How cool would that be? 40% power gain with a 50 lb weight loss and reliability too!

Let me know when and where and I'll be there. That would be a hoot. Just imagine the looks on peoples faces when you fire it up.

I'm a big fan of the second generation (S4-S5) engines with a turbo. The TurboII engines made 182-200hp respectively, but can very easily make a lot more by making minor changes to the accompanying equipment. 250hp+ is very doable with an exhaust and intake due improvement in turbo breathing performance, wastegate creep, etc. You need to make minor fuel compensations for significantly increased power level. The stock injectors have massive capacity, as do the GSL-SE injectors. A swap that has gained popularity in recent years is taking the n/a second generation block with its higher compression rotors and greater intake port area/duration, and then attaching the turbo engine long block components (some modification/fabrication required). The results is even greater power with a very wide power band. It's a pretty unbeatable engine setup.

No carbs please. Megasquirt anyone? :)

Toyman01 wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Please tell me it's going in the Volvo. If so give me a shout. I would be willing to drive to Greer to help with that one. I could probably even scrounge up a few parts if necessary.

That is exactly what I intend. Resurrect the Amazon with rotary power. How cool would that be? 40% power gain with a 50 lb weight loss and reliability too!

Let me know when and where and I'll be there. That would be a hoot. Just imagine the looks on peoples faces when you fire it up.

Consider yourself invited! Thanks!

Snrub wrote: I'm a big fan of the second generation (S4-S5) engines with a turbo. The TurboII engines made 182-200hp respectively, but can very easily make a lot more by making minor changes to the accompanying equipment. 250hp+ is very doable with an exhaust and intake due improvement in turbo breathing performance, wastegate creep, etc. You need to make minor fuel compensations for significantly increased power level. The stock injectors have massive capacity, as do the GSL-SE injectors. A swap that has gained popularity in recent years is taking the n/a second generation block with its higher compression rotors and greater intake port area/duration, and then attaching the turbo engine long block components (some modification/fabrication required). The results is even greater power with a very wide power band. It's a pretty unbeatable engine setup. No Megasquirt please. carbsanyone? :)

Fixed that for you. This is Lemons. You know what happens when crazy little stuff happens to fuel injected cars? They don't run anymore. Carbs pretty much always mix fuel and air no matter what you do to them. They might not be optimal, and not be as easily tunable or driveable, but for an event like Lemons we need a stupid simple piece of metal that we can bang on with hammers.

Snrub wrote: A swap that has gained popularity in recent years is taking the n/a second generation block with its higher compression rotors and greater intake port area/duration, and then attaching the turbo engine long block components (some modification/fabrication required). The results is even greater power with a very wide power band. It's a pretty unbeatable engine setup.

Ummmm, details please?

Actually, the Volvo is sitting at my house, in Tigerville. The front end is bent all to hell, which is why we're running a '75 Ford LTD Landau with a 400M for the May LeMons race (see www.tunachuckers.com/blog for the story). While tuna55 and I are both intrigued by the idea of a rotary swap (and as I said, I have the drivetrain out of a GSL-SE in my backyard) the bigger problem with the Amazon is structural. Oh, and brakes.

tuna55 wrote:

Snrub wrote: SNIP!

Fixed that for you. This is Lemons. You know what happens when crazy little stuff happens to fuel injected cars? They don't run anymore. Carbs pretty much always mix fuel and air no matter what you do to them. They might not be optimal, and not be as easily tunable or driveable, but for an event like Lemons we need a stupid simple piece of metal that we can bang on with hammers.

Yeah, that. Turbo IIs are notoriously finicky. That's not to say they CAN'T be reliable, but it takes considerable knowledge and expense to improve on a TII engine from stock and keep it from eating an apex seal. There's also the question of price. You're not going to find TII blocks for cheap unless there is something wrong with it. N/As are plentiful, cheap, and bulletproof by comparison.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Actually, the Volvo is sitting at my house, in Tigerville. The front end is bent all to hell, which is why we're running a '75 Ford LTD Landau with a 400M for the May LeMons race (see www.tunachuckers.com/blog for the story). While tuna55 and I are both intrigued by the idea of a rotary swap (and as I said, I have the drivetrain out of a GSL-SE in my backyard) the bigger problem with the Amazon is structural. Oh, and brakes.

Oh come one, it needs a front clip and a master cylinder. That's like 15 minutes.

Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it.

Not that anyone on here would try to enable anyone, or try to talk them into something cool and different.

Do it. They are neat engines to drive cause they just keep pulling and pulling and pulling...

Pistons are allowed to replace rotors. Going the other way makes baby jesus cry.

tuna55 wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Actually, the Volvo is sitting at my house, in Tigerville. The front end is bent all to hell, which is why we're running a '75 Ford LTD Landau with a 400M for the May LeMons race (see www.tunachuckers.com/blog for the story). While tuna55 and I are both intrigued by the idea of a rotary swap (and as I said, I have the drivetrain out of a GSL-SE in my backyard) the bigger problem with the Amazon is structural. Oh, and brakes.

Oh come one, it needs a front clip and a master cylinder. That's like 15 minutes.

Interestingly, I was looking at the M/C in the RX-7 the other day and it looks like its pretty darn near a bolt- in replacement for the Girling single pot M/C in the Amazon currently. We also need to address the reaosn why we lost brake pressure in the first place...

Need to figure out how to straighten the front out of the Volvo, and possibly redo the cage. They're not insurmountable issues, but the rotary swap will be easier, I think. Does anyone in the Greenville, SC area have a frame machine?

volvoclearinghouse wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Actually, the Volvo is sitting at my house, in Tigerville. The front end is bent all to hell, which is why we're running a '75 Ford LTD Landau with a 400M for the May LeMons race (see www.tunachuckers.com/blog for the story). While tuna55 and I are both intrigued by the idea of a rotary swap (and as I said, I have the drivetrain out of a GSL-SE in my backyard) the bigger problem with the Amazon is structural. Oh, and brakes.

Oh come one, it needs a front clip and a master cylinder. That's like 15 minutes.

Interestingly, I was looking at the M/C in the RX-7 the other day and it looks like its pretty darn near a bolt- in replacement for the Girling single pot M/C in the Amazon currently. We also need to address the reaosn why we lost brake pressure in the first place... Need to figure out how to straighten the front out of the Volvo, and possibly redo the cage. They're not insurmountable issues, but the rotary swap will be easier, I think. Does anyone in the Greenville, SC area have a frame machine?

Mike, To make it easier on us, let's set a race date. I do mean us, as in, the second car can live in my garage and everything. Let's go for fall of 2012 race? I can see puling out the existing cage, welding C channel to make a front clip, bolting it to the unitbody and then welding a cage to tie it all together. Another master cylinder is easy and then a rotary will be a slam dunk.

RexSeven wrote: Yeah, that. Turbo IIs are notoriously finicky. That's not to say they CAN'T be reliable, but it takes considerable knowledge and expense to improve on a TII engine from stock and keep it from eating an apex seal. There's also the question of price. You're not going to find TII blocks for cheap unless there is something wrong with it. N/As are plentiful, cheap, and bulletproof by comparison.

What exactly does anyone need to do to keep a TII engine reliable? Seriously? Up to ~220hp range a fuel cut defensor with the stock ECU is all that's necessary. Fuel pump rewire doesn't hurt either. TII blocks are not expensive (by Lemons standards they might be). I'd say the bigger problem is that these engines are old now, there are a LOT of tired engines out there. Beyond that you need to look at getting more fuel in. The ECU is the biggest problem there. The Megasquirt helps resolves that. It needs to be well cooled, but the stock stuff is up to the task. Upgrading the IC and rad doesn't hurt.

A good fuel injection setup should be pretty dead reliable. I'd defer judgement to Lemons experts, I'm sure there are some major differences.

As for the turboed n/a engine, take a look on www.aaroncake.net or the RX-7 forum.

Snrub wrote:

RexSeven wrote: Yeah, that. Turbo IIs are notoriously finicky. That's not to say they CAN'T be reliable, but it takes considerable knowledge and expense to improve on a TII engine from stock and keep it from eating an apex seal. There's also the question of price. You're not going to find TII blocks for cheap unless there is something wrong with it. N/As are plentiful, cheap, and bulletproof by comparison.

What exactly does anyone need to do to keep a TII engine reliable? Seriously? Up to ~220hp range a fuel cut defensor with the stock ECU is all that's necessary. Fuel pump rewire doesn't hurt either. TII blocks are not expensive (by Lemons standards they might be). I'd say the bigger problem is that these engines are old now, there are a LOT of tired engines out there. Beyond that you need to look at getting more fuel in. The ECU is the biggest problem there. The Megasquirt helps resolves that. It needs to be well cooled, but the stock stuff is up to the task. Upgrading the IC and rad doesn't hurt. A good fuel injection setup should be pretty dead reliable. I'd defer judgement to Lemons experts, I'm sure there are some major differences. As for the turboed n/a engine, take a look on www.aaroncake.net or the RX-7 forum.

The problem is that right now on the car:

No wiring other than ignition and battery/cutoff

No ECU

No IC or room for one

No Megasquirt.

Even on a GRM budget, add the cost of all of that stuff in time and money. Then add the weight and multiple failure points of a turbo. Not going to happen, dude.

tuna55 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Please tell me it's going in the Volvo. If so give me a shout. I would be willing to drive to Greer to help with that one. I could probably even scrounge up a few parts if necessary.

That is exactly what I intend. Resurrect the Amazon with rotary power. How cool would that be? 40% power gain with a 50 lb weight loss and reliability too!

Let me know when and where and I'll be there. That would be a hoot. Just imagine the looks on peoples faces when you fire it up.

Consider yourself invited! Thanks!

Dayumn. I might want in on this party too. If you decide on FI I even have some extra 6 port 13B NA FI parts laying around, like a complete S5 intake, injectors, various sensors and knowledge of what to cut and have it still run. I have a complete 6 port NA 13B but that's a spare for the Jensenator so no touchee.

If you want to easily carb a 6 port, here's the deal: you need an S4 intake bottom half. Then start looking for a Dellorto with a 2 piece Racing Beat intake, the upper half of that bolts directly to the 13B stock bottom half.

Or, with a 3/4" chunk of aluminum and some time you can make your own adapter plate to bolt a 12A intake to the side of a 6 port 13B. You can get elaborate and make ports in the plate for the 6th ports or just block them off, you lose some top end but it will still be pretty damn punchy compared to the B series motor.

Ignition is easy, a 12A distributor drops right into a 13B, put the ignition timing total advance at 24 degrees and you are set. Had I known you were planning this, I wouldn't have eBayed my last 12A dizzy.

You MUST repeat MUST run an oil cooler on either a 12A or a 13B. Don't even consider running without it!

The 6 port 13B's have a 'thermal pellet' in the eccentric shaft which will jam closed and make the rotors overheat, this fries the soft seals very quickly. The fix: stack 3 or 4 8mm lockwashers on the thermal pellet shaft and reinstall the E shaft bolt. This jams it open so the rotors get cooled oil all the time. 12A's don't have the TP, which is probably why they don't smoke as much when they get old.

If you get lucky and find a rotary that already has headers, if they are RB's you are in good shape. The Monza/Pacesetter version is flimsy as hell.

If you need to build your own, the RB 'U build' header kit is neat and well engineered but it's expensive. You can easily make a rotary header, you need to start with a no-E36 M3 chunk of steel for the flange. 1/2" is about right, anything thinner will warp like crazy. The tubing should be 2" OD .120 wall, that should be easily available up thar in them hills. If you can't find a bender, RB does sell J bends reasonable. You can use thinner stuff but it might burn out QUICK at the ports. On both the Abomination and the Jensenator, the headers will glow at night.

In reply to Curmudgeon:

I am going to take some time to absorb all of that, but it sounds like good stuff. I can say without a doubt that you're welcome to this party. Heck, want to be the engine builder? I am not the team captain, so I guess I can't say this, but maybe we'll do a two car team with the other nameless car the chuckers are working on and Charlie the Amazon, in which case we'll need all of the help that we can get.

'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshi+.' I'll be glad to build a motor, they are easy. Most times all they need is a seal kit, as in O rings and etc. There is one 12A specific problem: the rotors are aysemmetric, they can't be swapped front to rear and usually the rear rotor goes first. That makes them hard to find used. 13B's are symmetrical, the rotors can easily be swapped front to rear which makes them dirt cheap used. Come to think of it, I have an extra set of 13B rotor housings which, while not perfect (small amount of flaking chrome on the edges and some scratches), could be used in a LeMons budget motor.

We are going to LeMons CMP this May but Toyman and I have been discussing a different venue for the next one, always assuming the ol' Civic hangs together. Which I think it will. CMP's fun, it's well run and all but it's time for something new. We were thinking Lowe's Motor Speedway next September which is right in your time frame.

I have a smokey 12A you can have cheap if we dont sell the car whole. The oil control seals are going so it smokes at high RPM and after sitting a while. It will run forever like this as long as you keep oil in it. It went through about a quart between oil changes with spirited street driving.

Here is a video from when this was going to be the Challenge car build and we were going to sell the motor. Dont mind the wifes comments on the peacocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36b9JOfHfeM

Curmudgeon:

I am looking complete S5 Intake / Fuel Rail Setup. You wouldnt happen to be coming to the Mitty would you?

In reply to Greg Voth: No I'm not (dammit!) but I can do Parcel Post etc. PM if interested. OBTW: I don't have a TPS but I should have everything else.