Grassroots Railroad Sports?

In reply to ScottyB :

I've read about those. Pretty interesting how the engines still sit where they parked them on the last day of operations. A while back the one engine started to tip over from subsidence under the one rail and a bunch of volunteers went in with hand tools to jack it back up and fill back in under the rails, and they were having to move all their tools in by a veritable armada of canoes everyday.

That 4-6-0 is the last surviving Indiana Harbor Belt steam locomotive. IHB was a New York Central subsidiary. The 2-8-0 is the last Lake Shore & Michigan Southern engine, which became part of the NYC as well. that makes both of them part of the very few surviving New York Central steam engines (this, the switcher at Utica, another switcher, two Mohawks, an Atlantic at The Henry Ford, a 2-8-0 that was sold to the Santa Fe and is in OK, the #999 4-4-0 and a replica of the DeWitt Clinton)

NickD said:

In reply to ScottyB :

that makes both of them part of the very few surviving New York Central steam engines

with that said, do you think there's ever hope they'll move from their places?  i'm not sure there's anything that can realistically be done other than try to build another shelter over them and hope they last another generation or 2 before they completely dissolve into the earth.  even if they disassembled them to rebuild in another place, i have no idea how they could concievably move the parts other than by barging in a team of heavy equipment and then shipping it all back out on the water.

ScottyB said:

NickD said:

In reply to ScottyB :

that makes both of them part of the very few surviving New York Central steam engines

with that said, do you think there's ever hope they'll move from their places?  i'm not sure there's anything that can realistically be done other than try to build another shelter over them and hope they last another generation or 2 before they completely dissolve into the earth.  even if they disassembled them to rebuild in another place, i have no idea how they could concievably move the parts other than by barging in a team of heavy equipment and then shipping it all back out on the water.

I'm not going to say there's no chance, because people felt that way about a Union Pacific Big Boy being restored to operation, or Alco PAs returning to the US, or a PRR T1 ever existing, and UP #4014, NKP #190 and the construction of PRR #5550 all prove those people wrong. Never say never holds true in this field. But I would say that that chance is very, very marginal.

Looking at it from all angles: Maine owns these locomotives and has stated they have no intention of moving or restoring these engines, as their location has historical significance (it is literally where they were parked on the last day of operations in the 1930s) as much as the engines themselves. Sure, they are NYC locomotives, but Maine doesn't really care about the New York Central. If they were Maine Central engines, sure, maybe then they would be interested, but even then unlikely. That's not even factoring in the location of these engines. To get them out, you either have to disassemble them and boat them out, or, way more unlikely, cut a road back in there and truck them out. So, if not the state, who does that leave, supposing that you could get Maine to part ways with them?

Historical Societies: There are NYC historical societies, and I'm sure IHB and LS&MS historical societies. But most of those rail historical societies have no money or property or assets, they're just a couple people who publish a calendar and a newsletter with some donated archived photos. Not the kind of organizations that could pull this off. Maybe they could raise awareness of these engine, since a lot of people don't know they even exists, but that's about it. And if they're going to take up and sponsor a locomotive, there are a lot of them that are rotting away in city parks at risk of being scrapped as public eyesores. You can spend less money and effort and make a more noticeable impact.

Railroad Museums: Most of them are operating on shoestring budgets, barely able to maintain the collection they have. In fact, a lot of them are failing to do even that. Look at Steamtown's collection rotting away outdoors, even with $6M in government aid every year. Or Indiana Transportationg Museum, which recently got evicted from it's home and had to scramble to save what they could and relocate their collection (read about that here). None of them have a couple million to throw around to relocate two locomotives from remote Maine woods, and even if they did, it would likely be just as neglected at their new homes, while depleting money and attention that could be used on more salvageable pieces.

Private Individuals: Say I'm a self-made multi-millionaire with a real love of the New York Central because my grandpappy worked for them, and I want to blow a huge chunk of my money restoring an NYC engine to operation (ignoring the "where will it run?" question). These engines would probably be last on my list. They are inaccesible, in decrepit condition, they aren't what everyone thinks of when they think of New York Central engines and their NYC pedigree is only through rather-roundabout merger/aqcuisition/subsidiary circumstances. Since there are no NYC Hudsons or Niagaras left, I would be better spending my dough on restoring one of the two Mohawks, either the #2933 or the #3001, that are nicely cosmetically restored and are sitting on museum property. They're more accesible, they're in nicer shape, they are the engines that come to mind when people think of the NYC.

So, I'm pretty certain they'll stay right where they are. If volunteers come in and scrape and paint them they'll last a while. Even longer if a roof was put over them. They're pretty safe from vandalism. They aren't in a city center where at the first sign of rust the city council is chomping at the bit to get it scrapped. Honestly, they're condition is arguably more stable than a lot of more accessible pieces. 

Honestly, with as lauded as NYC Mohawks are, I'm kind of surprised that no one has attempted to restore one to operation.

#2933 was actually built for the the Cleveland, Cincinatti, Chicago & St. Louis, usually referred to as the Big Four, in 1929. The Big Four had been purchased by the NYC in 1906 and was operated as a separate entity until 1930. It was then transferred to the NYC in 1930. They operated it until the end of steam, at which point a number of employees reportedly concealed the engine, either in the Selkirk roundhouse behind large boxes or in the yard between strings of cars and work trains. When its existence was discovered, the engine was put to work as a stationary steam boiler at NYC facilities until 1962, at which point it was donated to the Museum Of Transportation in Missouri. This makes the #2933 only 1 of 2 large "modern" NYC steam engines to be saved, and the only one donated to a museum.

#3001 is a later L3a class (the #2933 is an L2d) built in 1940 and operated until 1957. At this point it went to Texas. The Texas & Pacific had donated one of their 2-10-4 Texas (#638) to the Texas State Fairgrounds, who had not ever fenced in the engine nor taken care of it, and then scrapped it as soon as it got vandalized. The state then went to T&P and asked for another engine, but the T&P had no more engines left to donate, as they were all either spoken for or scrapped. The T&P then went out and found recently-retired #3001, bought it, shipped it to Texas and disguised it as fictional T&P # 909 (the irony is that while 4-8-2s were a very common configuration, the T&P had only owned 5) and gave that to the state fairgrounds. Years later, Dallas gave the #3001, still in T&P drag, to the Museum Of The American Railroad. The Lakeshore Railroad Historical Society then traded a PRR GG1 for it in the 1980s, where it then went to Elkhart, IN to the National New York Central Railroad Museum, who restored it back to NYC appearance.

While I don't have much to contribute, I am really enjoying this thread. Keep it up everyone!

In reply to Mezzanine :

I've been to Shelton and admired that Shay. Christmas Tree capital of the world. My Mother-in-law has a cousin that lives there. 

914's post made me think of something:

Can I temporarily nudge this thread in a different direction?  I working on finalizing layout plans for my son's N scale layout.  We aren't worried about modeling any specific railroad or time period.  Can you all flex your "google-fu" on cool 2 track tunnel entrances?  I'm a (former) scale modeler, so I can probably scratch build anything you guys can find.  

Durango & Silverton has #493 now fired up and operational. This is the first time the #493 has moved under its own power in 50 years. Its the biggest, mist powerful engine they now have, and they converted it to oil-fired so they can run it in the dry months

kazoospec said:

914's post made me think of something:

 

Can I temporarily nudge this thread in a different direction?  I working on finalizing layout plans for my son's N scale layout.  We aren't worried about modeling any specific railroad or time period.  Can you all flex your "google-fu" on cool 2 track tunnel entrances?  I'm a (former) scale modeler, so I can probably scratch build anything you guys can find.  

Double-track tunnels are apparently hard to find.

Look up the tunnel on Sand Patch grade. That one is double tracked. 

In reply to T.J. :

I forgot about Sand Patch.

Also, I will take the opportunity to post Chessie Systems units climbing the Sand Patch Grade, because the Chessie Systems livery is great.

In reply to NickD :

In reply to Duke :

There is a deck of playing cards with Chessie on it around here. I think they came from my grandmother

In reply to NickD :

In the '70s and '80s, my father had a self-serve carwash on the north side of of Wilmington, DE.  There was a freight line that ran right behind his property, up an embankment an behind a little stand of trees.  Whenever a train came I would run up the hill to wave at the crew and be awed by the sheer impact of the thing going by 20 feet away.  These guys used to run back and forth there all the time:

In fact in the link below you can see a freighter going by:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Miller+Rd,+Wilmington,+DE+19802/@39.7669338,-75.5368466,878m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c6fcd41380e75b:0x886be749e2d42785!8m2!3d39.7693862!4d-75.5328077

NickD said:

In reply to T.J. :

I forgot about Sand Patch.

Also, I will take the opportunity to post Chessie Systems units climbing the Sand Patch Grade, because the Chessie Systems livery is great.

Just curious, on the top photo, are the "notches" in the sides of the portal supposed to be there to allow larger units?

In reply to kazoospec :

They sure look like it, don't they?  Not particularly neatly done, either.

Self-clearancing railroad tunnels don't sound like the best idea.

In reply to kazoospec :

I'm guessing it was definitely for clearance. EMD SD45s and GE Dash-7s had some huge "batwing" radiators in the back that might have had clearance issues that steam and earlier diesels might not have had

Sand Patch grade tunnel notched for clearance of double stack intermodal trains to pass through.

See this link for details.

Spotted this on the way home from NH last week in MA. Interesting to see a train on a truck trailer, even if a fairly small locomotive:

I was in a tavern in Frenchtown NJ last evening that had a stained glass behind the bar based on this photo

The Oswego & Philadelphia express wrecked between Frenchtown & Milford October 4 1877

Ian F said:

Spotted this on the way home from NH last week in MA. Interesting to see a train on a truck trailer, even if a fairly small locomotive:

That's Monson #3, a little Vulcan 2'-gauge 0-4-4T, that is bouncing between narrow gauge museums

Canadian 4-8-4s were called a "Confederation"

Built by Montreal Locomotive Works or Canadian Locomotive Company.

A U-2-E version:

A U-4 version:

MLW also built Alco designed diesels for CN.

MLW is now part of Bombardier.

CLC bought Davenport and was eventually bought by Fairbanks-Morse before going out of business completely.

ShawnG said:

Canadian 4-8-4s were called a "Confederation"

I forgot about that one. The Northern-type was called a lot of different names, usually by railroads in the south.

New York Central called them a Niagara, because a lot of their classes used NY locations.

Chesapeake & Ohio called them a Greenbriar.

Western Maryland called them a Potomac.

Nashville, Chattanooga & St Louis called them a Dixie.

Central of Georgia called them Big Apples.

Southern Pacific called them Golden States

Delaware, Lackawanna & Western called them Poconos.