This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
Show/hide post
In reply to aircooled :
The ability to create division: now we are getting somewhere! Color me interested.
Lol imagine my surprise at the predictable response. If people don't start having tough conversations this kind of thing will continue to happen. All the talk of solutions isn't serious in that case.
Why is the fighting so intense around that big hospital? Is hamas trying to hide something in (or under) that hospital?
In reply to TRoglodyte :
From what I have read, Israel believes that Hamas's headquarters is under the hospital.
Not only Israel, it looks like US intelligence has confirms that. This, I believe has been generally known for a while (from sources other than the IDF)
Hamas has command node under Al-Shifa hospital, US official says
US official with knowledge of American intelligence says Hamas has a command node under the Al-Shifa hospital, uses fuel intended for it and its fighters regularly cluster in and around Gaza’s largest hospital.
The information comes after comments made Sunday by a top White House official that Hamas is using hospitals and civilian facilities.
IDF is reporting finding weapons caches and evidence of hostages being held (straps on chairs etc) under a childrens hospital.
Hamas clearly wants to keep the Israelis out of their command posts, but it's also to their advantage to see if they can get Israelis to kill infants and wounded (according to Hamas, they want to die). Obviously, otherwise, defending a hospital, if you actually care about the civilians, is absurd. The best option for the hospital would be to just surrender it to the Israelis, who are clearly more able to provide what is needed and are saying they are very willing to take any patients that can be moved to them.
As noted before, having weapons in a hospital, or fighting from a hospital makes it a legitimate military target. I certainly would not expect the Israelis to directly attack one, but... if Hamas can make it look like they did..... (many would certainly believe, no matter how absurd the evidence)
It's looking like the Israelis are moving to surround it. Once surrounded, there is not much that can be done from Hamas, but again, there are all the tunnels.
Numerous organizations are claiming that Hamas isn't at the hospital, but intelligence is saying otherwise.
Fuel for the hospital was turned down...could that have been hospital administration wanting to "flush out" Hamas by making it a bad place for which to run operations?
Alternatively, however, the hospital doesn't seem to want to evacuate. Or can't. I've read reports that they don't have any method to evacuate people.
Hopefully a ceasefire is agreed upon, but Hamas has little to gain by doing so. As soon as their human shields are gone, IDF forces will overwhelm Gaza.
Hamas could have a ceasefire in minutes by surrendering the hostages.
In reply to TRoglodyte :
Probably true, but I am not sure it works much in their favor. I think you have to look to what Hamas's goals are. A primary one of course is the extermination of Jews and Israel, which they (well, probably mostly Iran) likely planed on doing by creating a holy war of Arabs against Jews. That seems to have failed. So, the backup of course is to just kill as many Israelis as they can, and cause as much bad press as they can (e.g. getting them to kill civilians, children, bomb hospitals etc.). Getting the Israelis to kill their own people (hostages) of course also works for them.
A cease fire might allow them to re-arm and re-distribute a bit, but loosing the hostages could allow Israel to be more aggressive, specifically with tunnels (e.g. just destroying, dumping gas in etc. rather than having to assault them).
As far as a cease fire to allow civilians to be helped / allowed to evacuate.... well, I don't think that is in Hamas interest either.
And of course, you also need to consider Israel's goals, which are stated as the destruction of Hamas. So a ceasefire could not be maintained unless there was a general surrender of Hamas, which is highly unlikely.
I thought this provided interesting context, given other conflicts in the region. Not meaning to belittle the real suffering that is happening in this conflict, but I found it eye-opening that the amount of casualties in almost 100 years of conflict pales in comparison to other more recent wars that we almost never hear about, or argue on the internet about. Solemnly hoping for a better future in this part of the world, and grateful for the one I live in.
maschinenbau said:I thought this provided interesting context, given other conflicts in the region. Not meaning to belittle the real suffering that is happening in this conflict, but I found it eye-opening that the amount of casualties in almost 100 years of conflict pales in comparison to other more recent wars that we almost never hear about, or argue on the internet about. Solemnly hoping for a better future in this part of the world, and grateful for the one I live in.
This is why many people, myself included, don't have much hope that actual peace will ever last in that area. They're so used to killing each other it's just what they do.
In reply to bobzilla :
Sadly I agree, but I will hold on to some hope.
Looks like the Israelis are storming the Al-Shifa Hospital, so be prepared for lots of "marketing". Seems like they raided and may have retreated out. They also may currently have it surrounded. The Israelis are reporting that they have killed Hamas fighters within the complex.
Of note is a large number of Hamas fighters simply fight in civilian cloths, so claiming a dead one either way is pretty easy.
The UN has some typically worthless things to add:
UN Relief Coordinator: Hospitals should not be battlefields
The United Nations condemns the "horrific" Israeli army storming of Al-Shifa Hospital
Explosions were heard in the basement of the Al-Shifa Complex
Israeli army: Weapons and other Hamas infrastructure were found in Al-Shifa Hospital
Hamas considers Israel's announcement regarding the discovery of weapons in Al-Shifa Hospital a "lie and a farce."
Sending a message?
The Israeli army blew up the parliament building in Gaza
?
Reuters: A Qatari-sponsored agreement includes 50 hostages held by Hamas and prisoners in Israel, with a truce for 3 days.
The Israelis are starting to discover the tunnel complexes.
One wonders if they had put the huge expense and effort into their economy / infrastructure...
Recent Situational Reports exchanged between the U.S. and Israel, obtained by our team, have provided unprecedented insights into the tunnel system beneath Gaza.
The IDF estimates there are 1,300 tunnels spanning 500 km beneath Gaza. The tunnel system has multiple levels.
Level One: Entry and launch locations inside buildings for personnel and rocket launches.
Level Two: Reinforced passageways for rocket transport and maneuvering
Level Three: Houses the Oxygen Generation and Air Movement system generator.
Level Four: Meeting and sleeping rooms for Hamas fighters
Level Five: Main Gaza Metro connecting city blocks/sections
Level Six: Storage for weapons, ammunition, and fuel, with doors always closed for safety
Level Seven: Additional storage and sleeping rooms
Level Eight: Command and Control Center for Hamas, connected via a hard landline, with a quick escape tunnel to the Gaza Metro for senior leaders' evacuation
This tunnel system allows for quick movements, such as hiding after launching a rocket.
The size of the network indicates many years of building at an extremely high cost.
In reply to aircooled :
The real complicating factor here is the hostages. If it weren't for them, I suspect those tunnels would be full of seawater by now. There's a good chance they're down low, in small groups, and being moved frequently. The Israelis are going to lose soldiers and time trying to extricate them, and the more time they lose, the weaker their international support (and the louder the foreign popular opposition).
Hamas, or more likely Iran, has certainly done a good job of putting Israel in a very difficult set of positions and limiting their options for dealing with them.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the Israelis have a new "weapon" for sealing the tunnels, likely mostly used to seal a tunnel they aren't going into, but don't want Hamas fighter to spring out of. They call it a sponge bomb. It's essentially a container of rapidly expanding foam that has both parts, combining when it "detonates".
As noted, without the hostage issue, Israel could simply seal up the tunnels (there are a LOT, so it would be difficult) and let CO2 do their job for them. Tunnels like this also require serious ventilation, so cutting power does a similar thing. They will certainly have generators under ground, but generators create heat and heat exhaust, which has to go somewhere, so that become tricky and sealing the exhausts would be very effective.
In reply to aircooled :
Well at least it's nice to see where all of that foreign aid went. It sure didn't go to help any suffering Palestinians or educate them.
A few things I missed. Looks like the cleaned out one of what are called "Refuge Camps". Not sure what they mean by "rigged with explosives". I am guessing they mean Hamas rigged them, not that the IDF is set to destroy them?
Israeli army says that the Shati district of northern Gaza had been completely captured and cleansed from militants, more than 1,000 militants were killed during the fighting, 80% of the buildings are rigged with explosives
There seems to be a serious, at least an appearance of an attempt, to get hostages for time. I can certainly see how Israel would be VERY suspicious of any deal. I mean, what does Hamas get out of it? I cannot image they either have any real hope of "winning" nor do they have interest in helping civilians, though maybe they fear a shift in the narrative, that is, a gesture that makes it look like they care.
I can certainly see how the Israelis would fear they would use a pause to setup some sort of action to kill as many Israelis as possible (e.g. planting explosives in tunnels under paused Israeli force concentrations), or some sort of trap when the Israeli's advance more, maybe even some trick involving using retreating civilians E.g. killing Israeli's and getting the IDF to kill civilians and "civilians" (civilian dressed fighters).
(yes, I am SUPER pessimistic about Hamas intentions)
Biden: "I have been talking to people involved (in the negotiations on the hostages release) every single day. I believe it is gonna happen but I don't want to get into details". Asked what his message to the families is Biden said: "Hang in there – we are coming"
Probably good news:
Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei conveyed to Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh during their November meeting in Tehran that Iran would not join the war on Israel following the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas
While pledging ongoing political and moral support, Khamenei emphasized that Iran would not intervene directly and urged Haniyeh to quell voices within Hamas advocating for Iran and Hezbollah to engage more actively in the conflict against Israel
Source: Iran International
Israel may be seeing more surrenders, which is interesting considering the supposed "look forward to death" angle that Hamas has. Also note civilian clothing (perhaps not the fully devout?):
maschinenbau said:In reply to bobzilla :
Sadly I agree, but I will hold on to some hope.
I've worked with the general public for too long, that hope died long ago
Israel appears to be pushing more towards the center of Gaza. As noted above, it's looking like a battle to capture hospitals, which is becoming even more obvious, are command hubs for Hamas. The Shifa hospital looks to be entirely enveloped at this point, although there does appear to still be fighting there (where Hamas says there are no fighters or military facilities).
The Israeli army claims it reveals a Hamas headquarters and weapons found in Shifa
The UN, continues to UN (what did 02 say about laws that have no enforcement....)
UNSC resolution calls for the immediate and unconditional release of all detainees held by Hamas and other organizations in Gaza
The draft resolution approved by the Security Council calls on all parties to refrain from depriving civilians in Gaza of services and aid
Meanwhile America can't decide on what gender is what and we get bitch about our old blind president. But we still get to go to work the next day, race our cars, and have a beer. I hate people bitching about ANY problem in America when you've got places like the middle east, and africa, burma, and the war between with Armenia and Azerbajain. Like my god do we have it good over here.
In this and probably all future battles, the information war is as significant to 'victory' as the kinetic. Over time the balance of external/international support vs opposition becomes more important to both sides. As we have seen before here, evidence and news means little if you can convince enough people that it is contrived.
From Summary Operation Iron Swords - Day 41 - 16 November 2023
In the days leading up to the raid, Israel insisted that Hamas was operating tunnels underground al-Shifa Hospital. It also claimed that the hospital was a command centre and military post for Hamas. The Israeli military released video footage from inside an undisclosed building within the medical complex. The video showed three duffel bags that the military claims were found hidden in an MRI lab, each containing an assault rifle, grenades, Hamas uniforms and flak jackets. Additionally, the army showed assault rifles without ammunition clips and a laptop that it said were found. Israeli military spokesperson Jonathan Conricus said: “These weapons have absolutely no business being inside a hospital,” adding that he believed the material was “just the top of the iceberg.”
Mustafa Barghouti, the general secretary of the Palestinian National Initiative, said that what Israel had shown in videos from under al-Shifa Hospital so far could easily have been planted by the army itself. “All they’ve shown is a Kalashnikov and a laptop that they could have put there easily and claim that it was found there,” the veteran Palestinian legislator told Al Jazeera.
On X, formerly Twitter, the Israeli army first posted a video of Conricus taking viewers on a tour through parts of al-Shifa, which it said was without any edits or cuts. But it deleted that post and then republished a near-identical video, with some tweaks. On social platforms, that further fuelled questions about the veracity of Israel’s claims.
In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :
Israel needs to hire a good PR firm. HAMAS has one.
I am not even sure the best PR firm in existence, making the best possible moves will make a lot of difference. Whatever they could produce will be summarily ignored as propaganda and Hollywood special effects by many "groups".
Some sort of independent investigation / analysis could be useful, but those can certainly can be dismissed also.
This conflict is essentially the definition of "partisan", for the involved participants at least. Others (e.g. many in the US) could potentially be more swayed (we are already considered the devil by many though). I am very curious how Hollywood will deal with this. As many are aware, Hollywood was essentially founded by Jews (many of the major studios) but also, currently, has a bit of a "lean" that might not conform with the typical Israel/Jewish perspective(?). This whole thing certainly has potential for cinematic representation... which could stir up all sorts of poop.
In case no one heard about this absurdity. I am pretty sure ironic is a very appropriate term for parts of this:
Demonstrators brawl outside LA’s Museum of Tolerance after screening of Hamas attack video
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Street fights erupted between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian demonstrators outside Los Angeles’ Museum of Tolerance after a private screening of video showing the Oct. 7 attack on Israel by Hamas militants.....
Other stuff:
A defense official tells there have been multiple attacks against US forces in Syria today that have resulted in multiple minor injuries. We're now at more than SIXTY attacks on US forces in Iraq & Syria in one month
Palestinian media: Hamas leader Ahmed Bahr was killed as a result of his wounds as a result of an Israeli raid
Badr-3's and Boraq-70's belonging to Saraya Al-Quds located by the Israeli army
In reply to TRoglodyte :
Seriously. The Osama Bin Laden letter from 20 years ago is now making the rounds and garnering sympathy (not quite the right word but my brain isn't working) among tiktokers. It is astounding.
I can easily find speeches or letters or statements from probably every cruel dictator or warlord in the past 200 years that make sense and are reasonable. And it is important to study and learn from them. But this surface level E36 M3, in my opinion being pushed by Hamas and their allies, is so stupid and embarrassing. Thanks to Hitler and the autobahn, we have the interstate system. I'm not gonna thank him for it though.
In reply to mtn :
History is a cruel mistress. Ignorance of which can easily make you look the fool if you wade into without knowledge and perspective.
You'll need to log in to post.
