In reply to VolvoHeretic :
Always have been.
The US, Germany, and Japan all used Swiss AA guns during the kerfuffle eighty years ago.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
Always have been.
The US, Germany, and Japan all used Swiss AA guns during the kerfuffle eighty years ago.
VolvoHeretic said:In reply to Noddaz :
So, the most neutral country in the world is an arms exporter?
Of course!
Two very true things that can be said about the Swiss.
- They like to be neutral in wars.
- They like money.
aircooled said:Two very true things that can be said about the Swiss.
- They like to be neutral in wars.
- They like money.
Who doesn't like money?
No, I mean, they really like money, above what other people might consider, uhm, moral... as in... they don't care how they get it, or more importantly, who they get it from.
In reply to aircooled :
And you can't do that if you take sides. Some people might get the feeling that you aren't going to be trustworthy.
aircooled said:No, I mean, they really like money, above what other people might consider, uhm, moral... as in... they don't care how they get it, or more importantly, who they get it from.
Oh I know that and all about their questionable banking practices, although I think the international community is starting to come down on that a bit.
Noddaz said:https://mil.in.ua/uk/news/minoborony-rf-vydalo-silgosptehniku-za-tanky-leopard/
Looks like the Russians have destroyed some "Leopard" tanks. If you don't want to see the carnage.
About everything that happening can be described in one word - CATASTROPHE!!!
it's a humanitarian and ecological catastrophe
i have no words to explaine what i feel, what all our people feel
I watch videos from people who are there, i read their messages - i'm crying
When I think what is the scale of the tragedy and what will be the consequences - it's awful
just watch stories from this account
https://instagram.com/libkos?igshid=MmJiY2I4NDBkZg=
or tap here
and read these messages
https://twitter.com/igorlachenkov/status/1666498032865533965?s=46&t=TPsfKF-IAjpN25eQwJHzDg
Just as an aside. I'm reading a book: "Red Notice" by Bill Browder about doing business in the Post Soviet economy and the dirty deeds done. Fascinating stuff.
In reply to VikkiDp :
The Albanian representative to the UN has officially had enough of russia's crap. https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1666514248401289216
and I don't blame him. I know how I feel right now, and I can't even imagine how you must be feeling.
Furthermore, it really looks to me like the russians are making no effort to help evacuate those they've stranded within their own occupied areas
https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1666499315987013632?cxt=HHwWgICzvYyTzKAuAAAA
I'm really really damn tired of asking "how could they do such a thing?".
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In reply to z31maniac :
Not the rules. If you take that stance you have to defend the companies can do whatever they want diatribe which is indefensible. The Constitution applies to everyone and every entity in the land. It doesn't apply piecemeal as desired. It is universal in application. Nice try though.
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The only decent news I learned today is the nuclear plants near the damaged dam are shutdown. This protects the people from the threat of a nuclear accident.
I agree war is evil and the Ukranians are going to bear the burden and suffer. No one is on the good side as I see it.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
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In reply to z31maniac :
Not the rules. If you take that stance you have to defend the companies can do whatever they want diatribe which is indefensible. The Constitution applies to everyone and every entity in the land. It doesn't apply piecemeal as desired. It is universal in application. Nice try though.
Sorry you don't understand the 1st Amendment, nice try though. Let's stay on topic.
Russians shooting at rescuers in flooded areas following dam collapse, Zelensky says
Per CNN https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/08/europe/ukraine-rescue-efforts-nova-kakhovka-dam-intl-hnk/index.html
Damn.
In reply to z31maniac :
I'm sure this won't help, but Carnegie Mellon agrees with you
<blockquote>
from https://www.carnegielibrary.org/the-first-amendment-and-censorship/
In reply to Noddaz :
Lest we forget, Russia annexed this area, so they are shelling their territory and citizens.
More indications that the killing won't end if Ukraine stops.
Noddaz said:Russians shooting at rescuers in flooded areas following dam collapse, Zelensky says
Per CNN https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/08/europe/ukraine-rescue-efforts-nova-kakhovka-dam-intl-hnk/index.html
Damn.
Got it here too:
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1666781943587897345?s=20
Russian Forces are currently Shelling the Evacuation Sites and Routes in the Flooded-City of Kherson after Ukrainian President Zelensky was seen at an Evacuation Point in the City earlier today speaking with Evacuees and Rescuers; there have been multiple reports of Civilian Casualties as a result of the Shelling since the Residents have nowhere to go, to prevent this Evacuations have been Halted until further notice.
I can not possibly tell you how absolutely tired I am of asking "How could they do such a thing???"
Morality questions firmly aside, there are clear operational reasons to maximize the resources necessary for Ukraine to deal with the aftermath of the dam being blown. Just as wounding soldiers rather than killing them is tactically beneficial, in that it requires the injured to be removed from the battlefield quickly, whereas the dead can be left for a time when combat has stopped, or at least the danger has lessened. Some weapons, notably some types of antipersonnel mines, have been designed specifically for this purpose, using small charges to injure rather than kill the target. Further, wounded personnel require medical resources, transportation resources, and manpower that the dead do not, at least not in a timely fashion. Impeding those rendering aid is naturally a component of this approach. With a Ukrainian offensive looming, and limited resources to confront it symmetrically, it is not surprising that Russia has moved to take advantage of the possibilities of blowing the dam.
It should be noted that while the outcomes have some broadly similar elements, large civilian losses of life and property among them, this is operationally different from the famous Operation Chastise, the raid by RAF 617 Squadron on the Ruhr dams in 1943, commonly known as the Dambusters Raid. There, the primary objective was economic - Ruhr coal production, electric generation, and industry - rather than military (some still question the effectiveness of the raid). Nonetheless, an estimated 1,650 people died in the subsequent flooding; ironically, the majority were Soviet prisoners of war.
Romanian Foreign Ministry has demanded that the employees at the russian embassy leave the country within 30-days:
https://twitter.com/intermarium24/status/1666811177605947395?s=20
(we need more of this, honestly)
Another russian falls from a tall building. This time a federal judge:
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1666733165975674880
(need more of that too, please)
Norway reports seismic activity indicating that there was an explosion at the Nova Kakhovka Dam at 02:54AM on June 6th
https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1666827525350105088
(I genuinely think that we are reasonably certain of who done it by now, and I do think it's time we got involved)
Reports that the Russian Army has started blowing up other dams in the Zaporixhzhia region:
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1666764920334032898
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1666764920334032898/retweets/with_comments
(I can't confirm this anywhere else yet, so I'll save my comments)
We have Ukrainian gains in the settlement of Lobkove:
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1666811095116554244
(we definitely need more of that, and soon)
Glory to the Ukrainians.
Shelling of evacuees (SFW)
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1666784520249438209?cxt=HHwWgsCz6ZXszaEuAAAA
Ukraine’s chief Rabbi and his team came under fire when they came to help with evacuations.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1666789161070653442?cxt=HHwWhMCz0ab6z6EuAAAA
And missiles headed towards Odessa, amidst a larger missile raid over western and southern Ukraine. Air alerts are in place.
Stay safe, Vikki!
We may have our first damged Leopard 2A4 in Ukraine.
(video at top of thread)
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1666859745033039874?cxt=HHwWhMC9keqG8KEuAAAA
Speculation is, it might have been survivable for the crew and repairable for the tank.
Long live the fighters.
Certainly looking like hostilities are ramping up. Hard to say exactly where at this point. Miss-direction is clearly a useful goal.
Of note, Russian bombers in the air. Expect missile attacks tonight. I would imagine they might not target cities at this point(?).
aircooled said:I would imagine they might not target cities at this point(?).
Sadly, I would imagine they still will.
02Pilot said:Morality questions firmly aside, there are clear operational reasons to maximize the resources necessary for Ukraine to deal with the aftermath of the dam being blown. Just as wounding soldiers rather than killing them is tactically beneficial, in that it requires the injured to be removed from the battlefield quickly, whereas the dead can be left for a time when combat has stopped, or at least the danger has lessened. Some weapons, notably some types of antipersonnel mines, have been designed specifically for this purpose, using small charges to injure rather than kill the target. Further, wounded personnel require medical resources, transportation resources, and manpower that the dead do not, at least not in a timely fashion. Impeding those rendering aid is naturally a component of this approach. With a Ukrainian offensive looming, and limited resources to confront it symmetrically, it is not surprising that Russia has moved to take advantage of the possibilities of blowing the dam.
It should be noted that while the outcomes have some broadly similar elements, large civilian losses of life and property among them, this is operationally different from the famous Operation Chastise, the raid by RAF 617 Squadron on the Ruhr dams in 1943, commonly known as the Dambusters Raid. There, the primary objective was economic - Ruhr coal production, electric generation, and industry - rather than military (some still question the effectiveness of the raid). Nonetheless, an estimated 1,650 people died in the subsequent flooding; ironically, the majority were Soviet prisoners of war.
I appreciate everything you've said and I'm fully aware that you're much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.
Having said that, how can morality be set aside??? The gratuitous display of barbarism with civilian areas being intentionally flooded and then the rescuers being shot at (are-you-F'ing-kidding-me) is going to instill outrage in the free world.
We ultimately control how this thing ends...pi$$ us off enough and the threats of retaliation stop mattering.
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