2020 Corvette Stingray C8: What We Know and Our First Impressions

First, let's get the known stats out of the way:

Price: The starting price for the entry-level 2020 Corvette Stingray: "Under $60,000" (Potentially this means the Z51 package, Mark Reuss, GM President was slightly ambiguous here.) 

Engine: LT2 6.2-Liter OHV V8 mounted amidships with a new dry-sump oiling system.

Drivetrain Layout: mid-engined, RWD

Horsepower: 495.

Torque: 470.

0-60: "Under three seconds when equipped with the Z51 package."

Transmission: Eight-speed Dual Clutch Transmission "Shifts faster and better than a human". No word on any manual options down the road, so this sounds like the only transmission.

Like it or not, the Chevrolet Corvette is one of the cars that define our scene. From local autocrosses to international endurance racing, and at every point in between, Corvettes tend to run at the front of the pack while serving as one of the yardsticks by which performance is measured for other cars in the segment. So it’s no surprise that when Chevy revealed the most significant update to the model in its history–nothing short of a clean-sheet design that changed the entire layout–it was a Big Deal®.

When you roll out a mid-engined reimagining of iconic sportswear, you don’t just hand out a few thumb drives to jaded journalists at the airport Marriott. You start by renting a blimp hangar. Inside that blimp hangar, you put a stage worthy of Metallica, display historic examples from Corvette history, and even get a couple of astronauts to hype up the crowd of 1000-plus before you roll out your new creation.

We can’t really even begin to communicate the level of hype from the crowd at this event. In addition to automotive journalists–who, like we said, tend to be a mostly jaded and low-key bunch–Chevy invited hundreds of current Corvette owners, online influencers and dealer personnel to this worldwide unveiling.

The pre-event hype was downright Marvel Studios-like, where for months prior to the high-profile release nerds worldwide pored over the latest official and unofficial spy shots from movie sets in order to piece together Captain America’s possible fate. For months, fans have been analyzing disguised spy shots, official “leaks,” clearly bullcrap leaks, unofficial renderings and grainy pictures of C8 Corvette bits.

In the huge grandstands inside that SoCal blimp hangar, we saw people actually people vibrating with anticipation as the lights went down and the show began. Honestly, it was cool to see people so excited about a car.

And the actual car revealed to us mostly justified the hype. Yes, there are nits to pick–no car is perfect, certainly–but overall my initial feeling is there’s a lot more to like here than to complain about. So here are some observations from the morning after the big show:

• The biggest enthusiasm gap I’m seeing seems to be between current Corvette hardcores and non-owners, with the latter being more excited about the new version. I’m on the mailing list for our local NCC chapter, and the first few reactions have been somewhat lackluster. Likewise, I was in an elevator with a guy completely decked out in Corvette gear last night. When the door closed, he looked over and asked, “Well? What do you think?”

I began to respond: “So I think there’s going to be some excitement fr….” where he immediately cut me off and emotionally burst out, “Man they screwed up! The performance is there, but the looks?!?! The branding!?!? It’s just not a Corvette!”

So maybe the biggest discussion we’ll be having around this car is not whether it’s intrinsically good, but whether or not it’s a Corvette.

On the other hand, my autocross and track friends are pretty universally stoked, with maybe a few holdouts from the ones who hate everything anyway. (You know who you are.)

• Maybe the biggest shock of the night was the revelation that the car will be available starting at less than $60,000. That’s huge. Obviously, the good stuff will cost more. I’d estimate another $10,000 to $15,000 to turn a sub-$60k base model into a Z51 with better tires, better aero, more power via a sport exhaust, more aggressive gear ratios, an e-diff and trick software tuning for chassis and drivetrain. But, still, find me another 500-horsepower, mid-engine car with clear track intentions out there for less than $75,000. You can’t. That’s Cayman money for something that is clearly a lot more gnarly. The Corvette has always had a strong value proposition, and the C8 continues that trend.

• The other upside of that price point is that they’re going to sell a metric crap ton of these things. That means that in 10 years, their value on the used market should be downright affordable. Even if you can’t afford a new one, you should be excited that a used C8 could be realistically on your radar before long.

• No official word on higher performance models or designations, other than there are plans for them. There is a dedicated space in the chassis that would neatly swallow a large battery pack if that tells you anything. Corvettes have always added meaner version after the initial release, and when the intro car is doing zero to 60 in less than 3 seconds, the prospect of a Z06 or ZR1 version offering even higher performance is darn exciting.

• Chevy is fully bought in to track culture with this car. The next generation of the Performance Data Recorder setup will feature a database of tracks from around the world–and not only with start/finish lines but segment times and also the ability to compare info through user databases. Basically, the new Corvette comes with a competition-style data acquisition system.

• Overall, I like the looks. From the back of the doors to the front of the car, the looks and proportions are really, really good. From the back edge of those doors to the tail of the car, things get a little, well, less good.

The proportions of the rear are long and heavy compared to the front. Shorten the distance between the rear edge of the doors and the rear wheel wells, somehow, and you have an epic package. Right now, it’s good, but not perfect.

One of the most common criticisms I’ve heard regarding the styling is that it’s a little “generic supercar.” Uh, okay. I mean, I guess you could be more cynical and jaded, but you might need a special permit or something. A generic supercar is still a supercar. I’m ultimately going to choose to judge it by lap times and not a few styling missteps.

• You can say that changing the traditional Corvette layout to mid-engine is a flaw, but the reality is that this is what Zora Arkus-Duntov always wanted. He was pushing for a mid-engined Vette from the 1950s. So, you can say it’s a big change, but I don’t really think you can say, “It’s not what a Corvette should be,” when it’s literally what the guy who invented the Corvette always wanted.

We've made an abridged version of the live reveal right here for you to watch. Enjoy!

 

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Comments
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Jordan Rimpela
Jordan Rimpela Digital Editor
7/19/19 1:11 p.m.

So the real question:

Will we see a 2020 Corvette Stingray sell for sticker (under $60,000) in the next year?

oldrotarydriver
oldrotarydriver Reader
7/19/19 1:24 p.m.

I'd go with a hard "Nahh!".  Any Chevy dealer with a soul might "sticker" one, but the rest will surcharge it so badly you'd think the price should be in Euros.

 

Crxpilot
Crxpilot Reader
7/19/19 1:26 p.m.

The interior layout is worse than the c7.  With the fact that new cars are manufactured with such modularity, someone out there (maybe even GM), should/could make different interior "packages" for these.  Spend $5k-10k more and get the '53 look or '67.  Spend a little less and get a track-ready package with flat carbon panels and comfort delete.

Just anything besides what was in the reveal car, please.

Scooter70
Scooter70 New Reader
7/19/19 1:29 p.m.

In reply to oldrotarydriver :

I think they have the capacity to build them in such quantity that anyone who wants one and is willing to do any research beyond walking into the dealership in their little town with a checkbook in their pocket the week that they first hit dealer lots (there are plenty of dealerships around the country who do long-distance sales) that getting one without dealer markup should be relatively easy.

te72
te72 Reader
7/19/19 1:29 p.m.
Jordan Rimpela said:

So the real question:

Will we see a 2020 Corvette Stingray sell for sticker (under $60,000) in the next year?

Doubt it. Pretty much any noteworthy enthusiast car tends to have significant dealer markup (and even more so in the secondary market in many cases) for a while. No worries though, if there's one thing I have, it's patience...

 

So, I'm gonna be the first to say it, the new Supra is screwed. I'm as big a Supra fan (and overall Toyota guy in general) but at this point, if you buy a Supra over the C8, well... that's on you. Personal taste aside, if you're after performance as a priority, you'd have to be downright foolish.

 

Now, that said? What a time to be an enthusiast. Mustangs are great, Corvettes are finally mid-engined, the Supra is as back as we're gonna get, Miatas are still awesome, Dodge sells any number of things with irresponsible power levels... new golden age? I think so.

deaconblue
deaconblue New Reader
7/19/19 1:34 p.m.

Current C7 owners that sat in the cars last evening report there is truly more interior room.

You forgot to mention the front end auto raise feature.

More details available here;

https://visualizer-east.chevrolet.com/ui?carline=corvette&modelyear=2020&brand=chevrolet&language=en&country=US&channel=b2c

deaconblue
deaconblue New Reader
7/19/19 1:36 p.m.

In reply to te72 :

If you like the current Camaro, better buy one before they are discontinued again.  

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
7/19/19 1:41 p.m.

McLaren or Italian influence?

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy UberDork
7/19/19 1:43 p.m.

In reply to 914Driver :

Yes.

 

I think it's great. 

 

Will there be a mid-engined Camaro come back after the current one is discontinued?

 

Crxpilot
Crxpilot Reader
7/19/19 1:45 p.m.

It's time for a $30k Fiero now.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/19/19 1:47 p.m.

Here's something that JG and I discussed before the release: Will the new car look like a Corvette? I think the answer is yes. 

xflowgolf
xflowgolf SuperDork
7/19/19 1:49 p.m.
Indy-Guy said:

In reply to 914Driver :

 

 

Will there be a mid-engined Camaro come back after the current one is discontinued?

 

Nope.  Camaro needs a back seat.  Hard to put two kids on each side of an LT2.  

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
7/19/19 1:50 p.m.

You could buy a C7 for sticker in the first year. Hell, you could order one for sticker. Not at my local dealer, but there are some high volume Corvette dealers that make this all reasonable. 

My theory is that this car will appeal less to the "I bought C4, C5, C6, and C7 from the same dealer" Corvette enthusiast leaving some of the initial production for car enthusiasts instead of Corvette enthusiasts. 

infinitenexus
infinitenexus New Reader
7/19/19 1:50 p.m.

I'm pretty excited to read about test drives, once those start.  GM has mostly gotten the Corvette right for the last 20 years, from a performance level. 

 

Jordan Rimpela
Jordan Rimpela Digital Editor
7/19/19 1:50 p.m.

Unpopular opinion: I kind of like the interior. A lot. 

xflowgolf
xflowgolf SuperDork
7/19/19 1:52 p.m.
mazdeuce - Seth said:

You could buy a C7 for sticker in the first year. Hell, you could order one for sticker. Not at my local dealer, but there are some high volume Corvette dealers that make this all reasonable. 

My theory is that this car will appeal less to the "I bought C4, C5, C6, and C7 from the same dealer" Corvette enthusiast leaving some of the initial production for car enthusiasts instead of Corvette enthusiasts. 

...and that's a good thing.  I felt the C7 did the same thing moving the needle in this direction.  The C7 elicited massive groans from the Corvette purists.  It didn't even have round taillights!  

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
7/19/19 1:58 p.m.

I'm very curious to see how lap times compare to the C7 Stingray.  I foresee that the new Z51 will mop the floor with much more expensive cars in track tests.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
7/19/19 2:05 p.m.

Interior is a little odd looking, but I can confirm there’s way more space and headroom for the driver than any corvette in recent memory. Passenger... not so much. 

Steering wheel is better in reality than in pictures. Spikes are low, but you can grip it at 9/3 and get full wrap around wheel. So they moved the spokes to where they weren’t ideal for thumb placement, but at least they moved them so far that they weren’t in the way. 

stanger_missle
stanger_missle SuperDork
7/19/19 2:14 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
 

• You can say that changing the traditional Corvette layout to mid-engine is a flaw, but the reality is that this is what Zora Arkus-Duntov always wanted. He was pushing for a mid-engined Vette from the 1950s. So, you can say it’s a big change, but I don’t really think you can say, “It’s not what a Corvette should be,” when it’s literally what the guy who invented the Corvette always wanted.

This is a great counter argument to the "traditionalists".

I wish Zora Arkus-Duntov was around today to see his vision come to life sad.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
7/19/19 2:17 p.m.

I expected it to look like the camo'd mules, and while they definitely carry the same features, it somehow looks better than what my mind was imagining under the camo. Need to see one in person to really get a good feel though.

I was thinking $65-70k starting price, so to be under $60k is just a massive bargain for something with these kinds of chops.

Power is a little higher than I thought it would be too. I was figuring 475ish HP instead of nearly 500.

 

So in all, it's impressed me. I'm sure everyone at GM will sleep a little better tonight knowing that a random guy on the internet approves.

 

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
7/19/19 2:21 p.m.

I can't believe that the 1982 Corvette buyer was the same as the 1984 Corvette buyer.  

They have been trough a radical departure before...

 

1982

 

1984

Jordan Rimpela
Jordan Rimpela Digital Editor
7/19/19 2:22 p.m.
stanger_missle said:
JG Pasterjak said:
 

• You can say that changing the traditional Corvette layout to mid-engine is a flaw, but the reality is that this is what Zora Arkus-Duntov always wanted. He was pushing for a mid-engined Vette from the 1950s. So, you can say it’s a big change, but I don’t really think you can say, “It’s not what a Corvette should be,” when it’s literally what the guy who invented the Corvette always wanted.

This is a great counter argument to the "traditionalists".

I wish Zora Arkus-Duntov was around today to see his vision come to life sad.

I was so very happy to see them not only display CERV-I/II/III but to also discuss them at length. And given how many times Mark Reuss mentioned that CERV-II/III were AWD, I'm anticipating an AWD Z06 announcement. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/19/19 2:23 p.m.
xflowgolf said:
Indy-Guy said:

In reply to 914Driver :

 

 

Will there be a mid-engined Camaro come back after the current one is discontinued?

 

Nope.  Camaro needs a back seat.  Hard to put two kids on each side of an LT2.  

Haven't you ever had a back seat "hump?" We had one in our '78 Camaro. It was a natural barrier between my brother and I. It was like our own little DMZ. smiley

ebelements
ebelements New Reader
7/19/19 2:24 p.m.

I've wasted a good chunk of today reading/watching everything I can find about the C8. Never thought I would seriously crave corvette ownership even though I really enjoyed the C7 test drive I took last year, but I'm fully on board now. Not even mad about it being auto-only... the C7 really didn't work for me as a manual (on the street anyways). Seemed like the only real shifting was 1-2, and even then you were breaking laws. The ND was a far more rewarding manual experience.

Can't wait for the magazines to get their hands on these.

TreDeuce
TreDeuce New Reader
7/19/19 2:28 p.m.

The acquisition price is amazing... Thanks! And kudos to GM engineering and production processes. Truly first class.

 

As someone who experienced the sales  debut of the Mustang _ 240Z _ MX5, the over pricing(ADP) from sticker will be excessive, as I believe at the price of a short stack, people will be crushing down the doors to get one, and for a while. 

As for styling, as stated by the author, a bit of a hit & miss with clearly Corvette/Sting Ray/Stingray styling bits, but a touch of Boy Racer, plasticky 60's kit car? Will hold judgment on that until I see one in the flesh.

Overall it gave me an hour or so of car fever, but that has passed for now.

We will all stay tuned with enlivened interest to see how this plays out over the next year or so. So it could be a lot of fun.

KurtK01
KurtK01 New Reader
7/19/19 3:00 p.m.

My observation is that the rear end is too busy. May be the first thing GM re-designs.

Depending on how the C8 sells, you may see more price drops for the C6s and C7s.

Samebutdifferent
Samebutdifferent New Reader
7/19/19 3:02 p.m.

JG, I believe you hit the nail on the head

"There's more to like than dislike". 

Strangely enough, that is what will keep the C8 relevant and mostly popular for many years to come.  Consider the preceding generations where "advancements" and "cutting edge design" translated into watered down final products.  Yet, even with lack luster performance and cheap interiors, the car sold and people rallied behind them.  Every generational change brought forth the same comments and dare I say negativity from the nay sayers.  In this time of hiding behind the curtain of the world wide web, it just that much louder and more aggressive.

JG is our trusted source on this because he was there.  However, we can all look at the pictures and draw our own conclusions as to what we like or dislike.  Regardless of your view, the interesting constant with very few exceptions is the move of the engine.  This was previously thought to be a key element which would drive away the hard core Corvette enthusiasts but instead it was greeted very warmly.  Styling aside, that is a huge win for Chevy.

Until I see one in person, sit in it or maybe if I'm lucky enough, drive one, I'll with hold full judgment but I will state the following;

I do like the exterior styling overall.  It's a bit edgy, continues the C7 lines and is generally well thought out.  Could some areas be refined?  Sure, but this is the first round of what will be many iterations over time to address issues based on our feedback.  The interior is where I need to really see it up close.  I have to believe the pictures do not do it justice and only when you are in the car can a better assessment be made.  However the 20 buttons in question are familiar to any one with a GM product but their placement still seems a bit odd.

For me, I like have always liked the 63 split window in red with knock-offs and fuel injection.  To my eye, it just looked right for the times however others will feel different.  I also like the C6 platform because it seemed to clean up the misgivings from previous generations.  The C7 seemed to improve on the things that mattered performance wise but the styling was hard for me to really like.  That's why I find it interesting I actually like the C8 design because it shares many of the sames lines with the C7.  I guess the stying from the C7 is growing on me.

I can only image what the performance possibilities of a Z06 or ZR1 version will hold.  Hopefully we will see said versions before the electric cars take over completely.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
7/19/19 3:46 p.m.
John Welsh said:

I can't believe that the 1982 Corvette buyer was the same as the 1984 Corvette buyer.  

They have been trough a radical departure before...

 

1982

 

1984

To my eye, the real radical departure took place between C1 and C2; the rest look evolutionary.

vettelocke
vettelocke New Reader
7/19/19 3:52 p.m.

JG, you told me a few years ago the Vette needed a dual clutch tranny to be considered one of the better performance cars of the world;  job done!

I've been a NCCC member since 1974 and yes, the most outspoken people in our Club complain it doesn't look like like a Vette. Heard that with the C5, C6 and C7. Maybe it will grow on you, maybe not. 

Hopefully the new car will breath life into the National Council of Corvette Clubs but only if us old farts welcome and embrace those who are two generations younger than ourselves. We may have to move on from autocrossing to track days and time trials. 

JG, when you get one to test, let me know.

Locke,  North Florida Corvette Association 

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
7/19/19 4:01 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

• Overall, I like the looks. From the back of the doors to the front of the car, the looks and proportions are really, really good. From the back edge of those doors to the tail of the car, things get a little, well, less good.

The proportions of the rear are long and heavy compared to the front. Shorten the distance between the rear edge of the doors and the rear wheel wells, somehow, and you have an epic package. Right now, it’s good, but not perfect.

One of the most common criticisms I’ve heard regarding the styling is that it’s a little “generic supercar.” Uh, okay. I mean, I guess you could be more cynical and jaded, but you might need a special permit or something. A generic supercar is still a supercar. I’m ultimately going to choose to judge it by lap times and not a few styling missteps.

 

You can't shorten the gap between rear of the door and the rear wheel wells...there is an engine between there. That length is necessary on a longitudinal setup. The only way that distance could be shortened is going to a transverse setup.

EVERY MID ENGINE CAR WITH A LONGITUDINAL SETUP HAS THIS "GAP".

DeTomaso Pantera, Lotus Esprit, Ferrari 348, F355, F360, F430, F458, F488, Pista, Tributo, Lamborghini Gallardo, Huracan, Audi R8, etc.

The only mid engine cars with a shorter "gap" are all transverse setups: Fiat X1/9, Lancia Beta Montecarlo, MR2 (all three gens), Fiero, etc.

Be glad that GM FINALLY kept their word and actually made the damned thing. And don't criticize what YOU can't improve. I'll be waiting for your styling designs...

dragrasr58
dragrasr58
7/19/19 4:05 p.m.

Because I work for a GM supplier for the Corvette, I hope sells like gangbusters,

And price of the C6 Z06 I'm hunting for, comes down even further.  

A 401 CJ
A 401 CJ Dork
7/19/19 4:16 p.m.

C5Z is the next hot ticket.  Doug says so.  Gives it a higher Doug Score than an S2000.  Suck it fan-boyz.  

 

https://youtu.be/NcCszG4yNIU

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
7/19/19 4:21 p.m.

BarryNorman
BarryNorman New Reader
7/19/19 5:22 p.m.

Yes it looks like a Corvette. The committee that was responsible for this interpretation did ok balancing the Corporate and Race team goals. But it doesn't replace Ford's outgoing GT as America's best.

Now if there is a track spec version with itb's, 180 degree headers and capable abs.  you'd have a bargain that Ferrari couldn't match. And no one would care what it looked like once they are behind the wheel.

adam525i
adam525i Reader
7/19/19 5:34 p.m.
Jordan Rimpela said:
stanger_missle said:
JG Pasterjak said:
 

• You can say that changing the traditional Corvette layout to mid-engine is a flaw, but the reality is that this is what Zora Arkus-Duntov always wanted. He was pushing for a mid-engined Vette from the 1950s. So, you can say it’s a big change, but I don’t really think you can say, “It’s not what a Corvette should be,” when it’s literally what the guy who invented the Corvette always wanted.

This is a great counter argument to the "traditionalists".

I wish Zora Arkus-Duntov was around today to see his vision come to life sad.

I was so very happy to see them not only display CERV-I/II/III but to also discuss them at length. And given how many times Mark Reuss mentioned that CERV-II/III were AWD, I'm anticipating an AWD Z06 announcement. 

Now imagine that AWD system is actually a Hybrid system like in a current LMP1, that would really blow the traditional Corvette guys away

Adam

captdownshift
captdownshift PowerDork
7/19/19 5:39 p.m.

GM is clearly tired of people swapping LS motors into miatas to make a superior car. Thus they're killing the Camaro, making the Vette midengined and putting massive I4 turbo lumps into Silverados. 

Dave M
Dave M Reader
7/19/19 6:05 p.m.
Jordan Rimpela said:

So the real question:

Will we see a 2020 Corvette Stingray sell for sticker (under $60,000) in the next year?

In the next year it will be only markups!
In 2021 you will be able to get a z51 for $55k OTD and slaughter everyone else on the track. What a time to be alive!

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/19/19 6:22 p.m.
Dave M said:
Jordan Rimpela said:

So the real question:

Will we see a 2020 Corvette Stingray sell for sticker (under $60,000) in the next year?

In the next year it will be only markups!
In 2021 you will be able to get a z51 for $55k OTD and slaughter everyone else on the track. What a time to be alive!

I really wish the manufacturer's would clamp down on these dealer markups. It does nothing but bolster ill will with the majority of people toward the dealership model.

Only the most die hard people are willing to pay 15/20/40% markups over MSRP which just slows sales. 

I've already seen a post about a Toyota dealer marketing a new "Zupra" at a $45k dollar markup.

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
7/19/19 6:27 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Dave M said:
Jordan Rimpela said:

So the real question:

Will we see a 2020 Corvette Stingray sell for sticker (under $60,000) in the next year?

In the next year it will be only markups!
In 2021 you will be able to get a z51 for $55k OTD and slaughter everyone else on the track. What a time to be alive!

I really wish the manufacturer's would clamp down on these dealer markups. It does nothing but bolster ill will with the majority of people toward the dealership model.

Only the most die hard people are willing to pay 15/20/40% markups over MSRP which just slows sales. 

I've already seen a post about a Toyota dealer marketing a new "Zupra" at a $45k dollar markup.

If people would stop paying them, the dealers would stop doing it.  I know its a bit of a chicken-egg thing.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
7/19/19 7:08 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

The markups are crazy, but the manufacturers can counter them by building supply. That's why a Vette markup will be short lived, while Civic Type Rs, GT350s and their ilk have long lasting markups, and/or rapidly increasing MSRPs.

GM of late has combined overpricing with over estimating demand for their products at the MSRP. So you end up with a fire sale once inventory has built up to unreasonable levels. Hence, silly things happen, like a Vette Grand Sport costing less than a Camaro ZL1.

 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
7/19/19 7:08 p.m.

THis is exciting!  Much better value prop than the new Supra, not to mention significantly better looking.  

They've really upped the game with this car - 500hp, 0-60 under 3 seconds, 3,300lbs, video/data logger for track.  Amazing!

RossD
RossD MegaDork
7/19/19 8:04 p.m.

I will reliterate: ITBs, flat plane crank and snake bundles for exhaust

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
7/19/19 8:14 p.m.
te72 said:
Jordan Rimpela said:

So the real question:

Will we see a 2020 Corvette Stingray sell for sticker (under $60,000) in the next year?

Doubt it. Pretty much any noteworthy enthusiast car tends to have significant dealer markup (and even more so in the secondary market in many cases) for a while. No worries though, if there's one thing I have, it's patience...

 

So, I'm gonna be the first to say it, the new Supra is screwed. I'm as big a Supra fan (and overall Toyota guy in general) but at this point, if you buy a Supra over the C8, well... that's on you. Personal taste aside, if you're after performance as a priority, you'd have to be downright foolish.

 

Now, that said? What a time to be an enthusiast. Mustangs are great, Corvettes are finally mid-engined, the Supra is as back as we're gonna get, Miatas are still awesome, Dodge sells any number of things with irresponsible power levels... new golden age? I think so.

I like dodges current ethos. We didn't redesign anything, because there's still room in the engine bay of this one for a larger motor. So- here's a larger motor. 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/19/19 8:21 p.m.

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but I think I  read somewhere that it gets supercruise? Because if so that's awesome. An amazing technology.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/19/19 9:23 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but I think I  read somewhere that it gets supercruise? Because if so that's awesome. An amazing technology.

Supercruise? 

Carbon
Carbon UltraDork
7/19/19 9:41 p.m.

The z06 and zr1 are gonna be awesome. 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/19/19 10:00 p.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

Close.

https://www.cadillac.com/world-of-cadillac/innovation/super-cruise

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/19/19 10:07 p.m.

So I guess I should go see what a c7 is selling for tomorrow. They will either be trying to give them away or there will be a run on them by those wanting the last of the old style corvette. 

cdeforrest
cdeforrest Reader
7/19/19 11:07 p.m.

I just want to see them use the frunk for progress - like an electric 4wd system similar to the i8. Give me 30 miles of electric only travel and we have a deal. 
Business in the front and party in the back. I'd drive that every day. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/20/19 12:04 a.m.
Dave M said:

In reply to z31maniac :

The markups are crazy, but the manufacturers can counter them by building supply. That's why a Vette markup will be short lived, while Civic Type Rs, GT350s and their ilk have long lasting markups, and/or rapidly increasing MSRPs.

GM of late has combined overpricing with over estimating demand for their products at the MSRP. So you end up with a fire sale once inventory has built up to unreasonable levels. Hence, silly things happen, like a Vette Grand Sport costing less than a Camaro ZL1.

 

Many have, and it's killed many cars the Focus RS, there were lots of dealers asking $55k for them.

 

When you could buy a C7 for the price.

 

And it's killed many cars, you can still find a new Focus RS even though how long did production stop?? It's ruining cars

 

I would have bought a Focus RS 20 months ago but I couldn't drive one or buy one that didn't cost as much as a base Vette

If you don't think that matters I'm not sure what to stay.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/20/19 12:50 a.m.
dean1484 said:

So I guess I should go see what a c7 is selling for tomorrow. They will either be trying to give them away or there will be a run on them by those wanting the last of the old style corvette. 

Respectfully, Dean

It's not hard to find a C7 for under $50K right now. Especially if you want a manual, since those are apparently sitting on the lots. 

I just watched Jay Leno's short video about the C8. I like it. More than I did when I first saw the pictures. Especially the rather understated blue car Leno looked at. 

Jay_W
Jay_W Dork
7/20/19 12:56 a.m.

This is my best and only chance to own a current mid engine true sportscar. When they depreciate enough, I may ignore the alarm bells of "old-fart-buys-aVette LOLOL" and at least see what the fuss is about.

bigben
bigben Reader
7/20/19 10:25 a.m.

To me the C8 looks better from the back than the front, probably because it reminds me of the tail of the current Camaro.  Although, I do wish they had brought back the signature round-ish Corvette tail lights. At least they fixed the worst aesthetic of the C7 by detaching the tail lights from the rear panel vents. I can't look at the back of a C7 without seeing Kiss.

84FSP
84FSP SuperDork
7/20/19 10:32 a.m.

I’m a bit conflicted as I really liked how it came out after hating literally every spy shot...

TopNoodles
TopNoodles New Reader
7/20/19 2:52 p.m.

The nose of the car vaguely reminds me of the 1992 concept car.

Ozzy
Ozzy New Reader
7/20/19 4:41 p.m.

I want love it but no manual is a deal breaker for me.  I still prefer to be involve in driving experience not just a passenger.  

slowbird
slowbird Reader
7/20/19 5:10 p.m.
Gingerbeardman said:
JG Pasterjak said:

• Overall, I like the looks. From the back of the doors to the front of the car, the looks and proportions are really, really good. From the back edge of those doors to the tail of the car, things get a little, well, less good.

The proportions of the rear are long and heavy compared to the front. Shorten the distance between the rear edge of the doors and the rear wheel wells, somehow, and you have an epic package. Right now, it’s good, but not perfect.

One of the most common criticisms I’ve heard regarding the styling is that it’s a little “generic supercar.” Uh, okay. I mean, I guess you could be more cynical and jaded, but you might need a special permit or something. A generic supercar is still a supercar. I’m ultimately going to choose to judge it by lap times and not a few styling missteps.

 

You can't shorten the gap between rear of the door and the rear wheel wells...there is an engine between there. That length is necessary on a longitudinal setup. The only way that distance could be shortened is going to a transverse setup.

EVERY MID ENGINE CAR WITH A LONGITUDINAL SETUP HAS THIS "GAP".

DeTomaso Pantera, Lotus Esprit, Ferrari 348, F355, F360, F430, F458, F488, Pista, Tributo, Lamborghini Gallardo, Huracan, Audi R8, etc.

The only mid engine cars with a shorter "gap" are all transverse setups: Fiat X1/9, Lancia Beta Montecarlo, MR2 (all three gens), Fiero, etc.

Be glad that GM FINALLY kept their word and actually made the damned thing. And don't criticize what YOU can't improve. I'll be waiting for your styling designs...

Valid point, which leads me to the crackpot idea I just thought of. Someone (not me) should make a "ripoff" C8 by taking a wrecked C7 and wedging a transverse V8 in the back. Like, the LS4 from a 2000s Monte Carlo SS. YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

mspeedP5
mspeedP5 New Reader
7/20/19 5:53 p.m.

I'm excited about the advanced PDR! Can't wait for someone to figure out how to upgrade my existing one in my ZL1 1LE! cool

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
7/20/19 6:13 p.m.

I read an article on the internet by one of the developers.

The main reason they went to mid engine was the lack of traction on the front engine cars.  They couldn't keep adding power.

 Early development cars used a PDK transaxle.     Developing the new transaxle was the hardest part.

 

GTwannaB
GTwannaB HalfDork
7/20/19 8:09 p.m.

I have never been the biggest fan of corvettes except for the FRC Z06 so I am yawning a bit at the hype. But I am looking forward to the Italian rebodies of the C8 that will inevitably happen. Your name wouldn’t need to be Glickenhaus to afford a one off Italian beauty.  

classicJackets
classicJackets Dork
7/20/19 8:38 p.m.
GTwannaB said:

I have never been the biggest fan of corvettes except for the FRC Z06 so I am yawning a bit at the hype. But I am looking forward to the Italian rebodies of the C8 that will inevitably happen. Your name wouldn’t need to be Glickenhaus to afford a one off Italian beauty.  

The FRC/Z06 C5 are the only other corvette that I genuinely love (prior to C7, which i do think look good in upper level trims), but I can't get enough on the C8. Super excited to see one in the flesh. I've seen many, many camo-ed cars and was unsure, but I fell in love with the revealed body and colors!

white_fly
white_fly HalfDork
7/20/19 9:22 p.m.
iceracer said:

 Early development cars used a PDK transaxle.     Developing the new transaxle was the hardest part.

 

PDK as in a Porsche-developed dual clutch gearbox? How did they make it work? I want to know for... reasons.

mad_machine
mad_machine MegaDork
7/20/19 10:55 p.m.
KurtK01 said:

My observation is that the rear end is too busy. May be the first thing GM re-designs.

Depending on how the C8 sells, you may see more price drops for the C6s and C7s.

it's busy, but remember, being mid-engined, it needs the vents to exhaust the air that keeps the engine compartment cool. While you can say that the Mr2 and Fiero didn't have that much venting, they also did not come as a slippery fastback either. I think they will fine tune it, but it's still going to remain perforated with venting no matter what they do

Jay_W
Jay_W Dork
7/21/19 2:03 a.m.

In reply to Ozzy :

Go testdrive one. If this gearbox is even in the same ballpark as a PDK in a GT3 is, trust me.... You Will Be Involved.

dxman92
dxman92 HalfDork
7/21/19 8:13 a.m.

Looks like a Ferrari with a Corvette front end slapped on..

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 8:41 a.m.
Ozzy said:

I want love it but no manual is a deal breaker for me.  I still prefer to be involve in driving experience not just a passenger.  

Electric power steering that kills feel, drive by wire that controls the engine as an interpretation of what it thinks you think you want, divided by what it is programmed to allow you to have, braking that is closer to brake by wire at this point and has integral handling control... and shifting with a paddle on the steering column instead of an H gate is your hangup?

 

Horse is waaaay out of the barn, man.

RX8driver
RX8driver Reader
7/21/19 8:43 a.m.

Ever since the C5 Z06 I've thought "yea, I could own a Corvette", but now I'm finding myself really wanting one and even as a long time manual fanatic, I don't even really care that it doesn't have one.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 8:45 a.m.
iceracer said:

I read an article on the internet by one of the developers.

The main reason they went to mid engine was the lack of traction on the front engine cars.  They couldn't keep adding power.

 Early development cars used a PDK transaxle.     Developing the new transaxle was the hardest part.

 

I could swear that I read that in an article about the C6 Z06, in Car and Driver.  

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/21/19 9:45 a.m.
Ozzy said:

I want love it but no manual is a deal breaker for me.  I still prefer to be involve in driving experience not just a passenger.  

So what you're saying is, "I've never driven a modern dual-clutch gearbox and why are those clouds there!"

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
7/21/19 9:53 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Are you really going to claim that it's not possible to prefer the driving experience of a manual transmission over a dual clutch? 

Don't get me wrong dual clutch transmissions are great and can be engaging when you're really starting to push whatever car is equipped with it. But if you're just cruising around doing a little spirited driving a manual transmission is still much more engaging, in my experience.

Different strokes and all that. A dual clutch transmission isn't a deal breaker for me, but I understand if it is for some.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/21/19 10:18 a.m.
MTechnically said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Are you really going to claim that it's not possible to prefer the driving experience of a manual transmission over a dual clutch? 

Don't get me wrong dual clutch transmissions are great and can be engaging when you're really starting to push whatever car is equipped with it. But if you're just cruising around doing a little spirited driving a manual transmission is still much more engaging, in my experience.

Different strokes and all that. A dual clutch transmission isn't a deal breaker for me, but I understand if it is for some.

Are you really going to claim to take things seriously on the internet?

It's a joke, it's just playing around,s I understand all "I prefer manuals" talk. For me, it just depends on the car.

A Miata, BRZ, Mustang GT, sure, I do want a manual (I've owned all 3). A mid-engined supercar meant to be the fastest/baddest on the block? I want the DCT (like I had in my 135i).

 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 10:19 a.m.

In reply to MTechnically :

I don't really see any driving experience difference in any of the transmissions.  Unless your engine has a WRC-like flat horsepower curve, you're always in the wrong gear anyway.  Twin clutch transmissions at least allow you to shift near-instantaneously into a less wrong gear, like a good hydraulic automatic, with the minimal driveline losses of a manual.

Some people like to shave with straight razors, too, even though modern zillion-blade razors work better.  It's the connection with the past that people like, not necessarily the end result.  See also- retro designed everything.

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
7/21/19 10:33 a.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

You don't see how the experience of perfectly executing a rev matched heel and toe downshift gives you a different sense of satisfaction over just pulling a lever?

Your point about instantaneous shifting and not finding yourself in the wrong gear is related to what I like about manuals. There is stronger negative feedback for "bad" driving. I like the extra challenge that a manual provides.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 10:47 a.m.

In reply to MTechnically :

My point about the wrong gear is, unless you have a CVT, you are always in the wrong gear.  (Or even if you have a poorly calibrated CVT)

 

And no, I get no satisfaction from that, just dissatisfaction if it isn't 100% perfect.  I tolerate manuals because nobody makes a torque converter that will reliably tolerate 10,000 rpm.  Manual transmissions are just so slow.  You have to lift off the throttle every time you upshift or downshift, and unless you melt the clutch, they're slow in traffic too. (And then you need to either upshift to 2nd while that truck is bearing down on you as you make a left turn into traffic, or you scream the engine up to redline in 1st like an shiny happy person and risk getting a street racing ticket)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/21/19 10:52 a.m.
MTechnically said:

In reply to Knurled. :

You don't see how the experience of perfectly executing a rev matched heel and toe downshift gives you a different sense of satisfaction over just pulling a lever?

Your point about instantaneous shifting and not finding yourself in the wrong gear is related to what I like about manuals. There is stronger negative feedback for "bad" driving. I like the extra challenge that a manual provides.

The old "Not a true a Scotsman" fallacy.

Have you made that perfect "heel/toe" on two wheels? See that's the real enthusiast, that's the real person that enjoys going fast!

 

See how easy it is to say something that doesn't really make sense?

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 10:53 a.m.

Now I wonder about a CVT with a manual lever, where the lever position sets the engine RPM.  That'd be pretty cool.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 11:01 a.m.

Regarding the idea of a "challenge"... the most fun cars I have ever driven were the ones where I could keep my head outside the car.  The challenge should be the road/course.  There is nothing but frustration in having a car that you know could be faster if only a glaring deficiency wasn't holding you back.

 

I rode in two very different mind-bogglingly fast cars yesterday - a built STi and a slightly less built Evo X.  The Evo was very fast and the driver was always in the gear he wanted because he could hit the shift lever (steering wheel paddles are a moving target) and the car WILL be kn the gear he wanted, no worrying about having to time the shift while on a straight or something.

 

The STi just had big-block like torque and absolutely no turbo lag I could feel from the right seat, so he just left it in one gear and drove the course.  No need to waste time shifting once 30 feet or so from the starting line.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/21/19 11:51 a.m.

In recent years I have been softening my "stick shift or die!" attitude. And honestly, having just returned from a couple of days driving western NC/East TN roads (Tail of the Dragon plus others), it's softened even more. Yes, it was fun driving the MINI there and that car is a 6 spd manual, but was it really only fun because of the transmission? No, not really. It's not a race track, so I wasn't pushing the limits of the car or traction to the point where I really needed to heal-toe very often, or even try to. A good manu-matic would have been just as good if not better and probably just as much fun.

So at this point in my life, whether or not a C8 is available with a manual transmission is not something that concerns me. And I am absolutely someone who could consider one of these if I really wanted to readjust my financial priorities. At this point I'm not willing to, but life can change.

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
7/21/19 11:58 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Yeah, it wouldn't make sense to say that's the only way to enjoy a car or be a real enthusiast. It's a good thing I never said or even implied something like that. 

Sounds like the only fallacy being used here is the strawman.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/21/19 12:05 p.m.

Also: You can’t be a REAL <insert south park harley episode nomenclature> unless you’re berkeleying CONSTANTLY revving in neutral/clutch pedal in.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/21/19 1:28 p.m.
poopshovel again said:

Also: You can’t be a REAL <insert south park harley episode nomenclature> unless you’re berkeleying CONSTANTLY revving in neutral/clutch pedal in.

Obviously, what's the point of having a V8 if you don't rev it like a Harley at every intersection.

Mike
Mike SuperDork
7/21/19 2:56 p.m.
z31maniac said:
poopshovel again said:

Also: You can’t be a REAL <insert south park harley episode nomenclature> unless you’re berkeleying CONSTANTLY revving in neutral/clutch pedal in.

Obviously, what's the point of having a V8 if you don't rev it like a Harley at every intersection.

I can't remember where I read it, but pulling both paddles in a C8, at any speed, and in any gear, gives you neutral. Chevy gets it.

Ozzy
Ozzy New Reader
7/21/19 2:59 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Ozzy said:

I want love it but no manual is a deal breaker for me.  I still prefer to be involve in driving experience not just a passenger.  

So what you're saying is, "I've never driven a modern dual-clutch gearbox and why are those clouds there!"

Nope that's not what I said...  You are obviously much wiser than I so please interrupted it as you want.  Actually my money my choice.  In that $60-$125,000 price range where I assume the new Vettes (GS, Z06, ZR1) will end up there are enough other things I would rather spend my money on, that I can still row thru the gears manually, so the new Vette is off my short list.  Besides with a starting price around $60,000 I can see it ending up like the modern Mustang, Challenger/Charger & Camaro where every other driveway has one.  I prefer to have something a little different.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/21/19 5:02 p.m.
Ozzy said:
z31maniac said:
Ozzy said:

I want love it but no manual is a deal breaker for me.  I still prefer to be involve in driving experience not just a passenger.  

So what you're saying is, "I've never driven a modern dual-clutch gearbox and why are those clouds there!"

Nope that's not what I said...  You are obviously much wiser than I so please interrupted it as you want.  Actually my money my choice.  In that $60-$125,000 price range where I assume the new Vettes (GS, Z06, ZR1) will end up there are enough other things I would rather spend my money on, that I can still row thru the gears manually, so the new Vette is off my short list.  Besides with a starting price around $60,000 I can see it ending up like the modern Mustang, Challenger/Charger & Camaro where every other driveway has one.  I prefer to have something a little different.

So which $60k-$120k car are you trading your Hyundai in for???

I don’t need to test drive an AT Veloster to tell you that transmission sucks. In your $60k-$120k range, the lines get a little blurrier.

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon SuperDork
7/21/19 5:14 p.m.

I think I can settle the debate once and for all. Someone bring a manual C7 and a new C8 to Gingerman, I'll spend a day thoroughly evaluating (for science, of course,) and then report back which is more engaging.

My impressions: From some angles I see a bit of C6 in the front end and I like it.  The Z06 is going to be freakin epic. There are some nice color options.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
7/21/19 6:07 p.m.

I don’t get why wanting a manual is so controversial all of a sudden.. on an enthusiast board no less. There is a market for that product, and even Porsche head of GT knows that there’s a segment of their customers where technical perfection isn’t the main goal and improving 0.05 seconds just isn’t important. 

From his interview recently:

“I think we have an advantage in the market over the competition because everybody has skipped and deleted the atmospheric engine and deleted even the manual gearbox. That’s a mistake! Because if you look at the take rates on the GT model side, in some markets half of the cars are manual and everybody is longing for a car like this with a normally aspirated, high-revving engine,” he enthused.

For buyers of these cars, an engaging drive is important – maybe the most important.

"It’s not an A-to-B means of transportation. It’s something you do for yourself, it’s something you do for pleasure; and in that case it’s a healthy car, it’s like medicine because everybody is grinning and that’s healthy," Preuninger said.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
7/21/19 6:54 p.m.
mad_machine said:
KurtK01 said:

My observation is that the rear end is too busy. May be the first thing GM re-designs.

Depending on how the C8 sells, you may see more price drops for the C6s and C7s.

it's busy, but remember, being mid-engined, it needs the vents to exhaust the air that keeps the engine compartment cool. While you can say that the Mr2 and Fiero didn't have that much venting, they also did not come as a slippery fastback either. I think they will fine tune it, but it's still going to remain perforated with venting no matter what they do

Not only this, but GM went way way out on a limb with this car, so my assumption is that all the aero stuff, thermal management and vents is to prevent the opportunity for overheating and fires. Like it or not, those vents are there for an actual reason.

The Corvette team does NOT want a Fiero rehash, nor to be compared to all the mid-engine supercars burning to the ground. Let's see, we have Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche GT3, Ferrari 458, McLaren (number soup) etc. example videos that have been recorded on fire.

Between all the bad press they got from overheating Z06 and ZR1 C7's on the track, and the potential negative feedback from current Vette owners with the move to the mid-engine platform, I think the last 5 years of development has been taken as seriously as GM has ever pursued a new platform.

That this is most likely the last hurrah for a high performance ICE platform from any manufacturer before electrification and hybridization become the defacto norm, and that the Corvette name is the most profitable car for GM, indicates to me that they went all-out on this generation.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
7/21/19 7:04 p.m.

This car has actually made me completely rethink my stance on building my own supercar.  I'm actually contemplating buying a new car for the first time in 2 decades. 

This is the car that I wished the C7 had been.  I'm waiting to see how things develop, but I'm actually psyched at the level of performance and potential of this platform.

I've been trying to find a local-ish dealer that is part of the C8 pre-sales tour so that I can see it in person and sit in it. That might be all it takes to push me from the "enthused" to the "committed". My supercar build fund might very well go towards a deposit on the C8...and I'm ok with that. I've never been more excited at the prospect of what the aftermarket comes up with for this car!!

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia HalfDork
7/21/19 7:25 p.m.

Did they have any of them driving ?

The blimp hanger is a cool place that goes not get much use anymore ,

I have been to a car show there and they also  had a vintage car race there.....

But lots of room for test drives and a few speed runs !

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/21/19 7:30 p.m.
BlueInGreen - Jon said:

I think I can settle the debate once and for all. Someone bring a manual C7 and a new C8 to Gingerman, I'll spend a day thoroughly evaluating (for science, of course,) and then report back which is more engaging.

"That is a sacrifice that I am willing to make!"

300zxfreak
300zxfreak New Reader
7/21/19 8:59 p.m.

I see a perfect example of a thread gone astray.....again.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/21/19 9:33 p.m.
bcp2011 said:

I don’t get why wanting a manual is so controversial all of a sudden.. on an enthusiast board no less. There is a market for that product, and even Porsche head of GT knows that there’s a segment of their customers where technical perfection isn’t the main goal and improving 0.05 seconds just isn’t important. 

From his interview recently:

“I think we have an advantage in the market over the competition because everybody has skipped and deleted the atmospheric engine and deleted even the manual gearbox. That’s a mistake! Because if you look at the take rates on the GT model side, in some markets half of the cars are manual and everybody is longing for a car like this with a normally aspirated, high-revving engine,” he enthused.

For buyers of these cars, an engaging drive is important – maybe the most important.

"It’s not an A-to-B means of transportation. It’s something you do for yourself, it’s something you do for pleasure; and in that case it’s a healthy car, it’s like medicine because everybody is grinning and that’s healthy," Preuninger said.

That’s totally valid. But again, if Chevy was offering two transmissions, every car, with either transmission, would likely cost more. 

I’m sure there was a “Should we offer a manual” discussion, followed by some cost/benefit analysis, and predictions on how many manuals would actually SELL.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/21/19 10:11 p.m.

In reply to poopshovel again :

Hyundai did that with the Genesis (G70?) They offered a manual, knowing full well the auto would out sell it 10 to 1. berkeleying Hyundai!

Brian_13
Brian_13 New Reader
7/21/19 10:20 p.m.

I don't know how much the over-MSRP premium will be, or how long it will last, but if I won a lottery and went into the local Chevy dealer I would not ever expect to buy one for the list base price. Dealers will presumably carry only higher trim levels, just as they do with every other model; the base price is a marketing gimmick, not a product price.

For an example (sorry, not from GM), the Ford Ranger pickup here starts at $31K (and all are 4WD), but everything on the lot is a $50K+ loaded package.

Brian_13
Brian_13 New Reader
7/21/19 10:27 p.m.

If there is ever an AWD version, I think it's safe to assume that it will be a hybrid with electric-only front drive. After going to the extreme of a mid-engine configuration to put weight on the drive wheels, the rear wheels are going to stay the primary drive wheels and driving the fronts would only be for stability control and better regenerative braking. Squeezing a shaft past the engine to the front just isn't worth doing.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
7/21/19 11:02 p.m.

A hybrid mid engined AWD ZR1 would be interesting. I doubt I would pull the trigger on even a new $60k version unless I had an unexpected windfall. Too much money for me to spend on a toy, but this car does have me interested.

 

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
7/21/19 11:07 p.m.
Knurled. said:

My point about the wrong gear is, unless you have a CVT, you are always in the wrong gear.  (Or even if you have a poorly calibrated CVT)

False. When you want to go backwards, you use reverse. That is the only gear for that purpose, hence, it's the right gear. laugh

Anyhow, can we get back to what an amazing performance bargain this is shaping up to be?

Let's rehash this again:

$60k! FOR THAT!  They could probably paint something really offensive on the hood of every one and still move them all out the door.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
7/21/19 11:16 p.m.

In reply to Brett_Murphy :

My strategy was to ignore the side conversation about whether or not it is acceptable for someone to have a different opinion than mine so I feel compelled to argue with them because I am sure I can get them to see things my way if I just make up strawman arguments and then rebut them. I see your approach is to try to steer the conversation back to something we can all agree on. I like your spirit, but don’t share your optimism. 

te72
te72 Reader
7/21/19 11:31 p.m.
deaconblue said:

In reply to te72 :

If you like the current Camaro, better buy one before they are discontinued again.  

Can't see out of them, never been my thing to drive by faith. A car's belt line should not be higher than my actual belt line, and while I'm not tall by any means, I am mostly legs. Great driving cars though, love everything about them other than the poor visibility. Nothing like having 700+hp, in my friend Tony's case, and driving effectively with 3 of 4 windows that are basically useless.

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
7/21/19 11:49 p.m.

This is all going to make a 7 spd C7 Z51 a real bargain oh so soon......  

te72
te72 Reader
7/21/19 11:49 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I really wish the manufacturer's would clamp down on these dealer markups. It does nothing but bolster ill will with the majority of people toward the dealership model.

Only the most die hard people are willing to pay 15/20/40% markups over MSRP which just slows sales. 

I've already seen a post about a Toyota dealer marketing a new "Zupra" at a $45k dollar markup.

Agreed. There is no incentive for a guy like me to buy a new car when it is priced above what the manufacturer says to sell it for. Then again, if the market will bear it, then so be it, I suppose. Just means less overall sales, which... last I checked, is the whole idea of making a car.

 

I've seen a few ridiculous Mk5 listings as well. Honestly, if you're willing to pay 100k for a Supra, you'd just buy a super clean Mk4. At least it won't likely depreciate.

te72
te72 Reader
7/22/19 12:01 a.m.
Knurled. said:
Ozzy said:

I want love it but no manual is a deal breaker for me.  I still prefer to be involve in driving experience not just a passenger.  

Electric power steering that kills feel, drive by wire that controls the engine as an interpretation of what it thinks you think you want, divided by what it is programmed to allow you to have, braking that is closer to brake by wire at this point and has integral handling control... and shifting with a paddle on the steering column instead of an H gate is your hangup?

 

Horse is waaaay out of the barn, man.

Shhh... don't ruin the dream for me too haha. This is one of the few new cars I'll probably seriously consider. Up until now, most cars... I could do better in the garage for the same money, maybe even less. Funny enough, some of the cheapest cars at our autocrosses in Wyoming are among the fastest, so obviously doesn't take money to have fun. That said, I really don't think I could do better than a C8 for that price. Factory Five GTM comes to mind, but "better" is not something I suspect it would be. As fast? Perhaps, if driven quite well.

 

Either way, I just wanted to comment that I have a ton of newfound respect for you, Knurled, for using a username picture from xkcd's "What If?" series. Made my night.

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
7/22/19 6:41 a.m.

There is a reasonable chance that the choice of transmission has something to do with future hybrid variants. They could certainly still do a manual with ICE cars, as does Porsche, but they can also offer that later.

RX8driver
RX8driver Reader
7/22/19 8:25 a.m.

One thing to consider about the lack of a manual is that they probably wouldn't get nearly the same 0-60 or 1/4 mile times as the dual clutch car and maybe no launch control either. Those are important metrics to some and show up in just about every magazine test.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/22/19 11:58 a.m.
RX8driver said:

One thing to consider about the lack of a manual is that they probably wouldn't get nearly the same 0-60 or 1/4 mile times as the dual clutch car and maybe no launch control either. Those are important metrics to some and show up in just about every magazine test.

Hmm...  Clutch by wire?

 

They already have automatic rev matching for the manuals. (Automatics too!  Still mesmerized by that ZL1 video)  And the dual clutch trans already is programmed to slip the clutch just right, so there's no reason that couldn't be done with a "traditional" manual.  (See also: BMW's fancy automated manual whose name I have forgotten, Smart's ForTwo transmission, which was just a fully automated manual)

 

At some point, the main difference is what the shifter looks like.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/22/19 12:03 p.m.
T.J. said:

A hybrid mid engined AWD ZR1 would be interesting.

 

Give it the ability to tow 20k pounds, seat six, and get 50mpg, and it would hit all the marks for the GRM Perfect Car that Nobody Bought because they waited to buy one used.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/22/19 12:39 p.m.
Knurled. said:
T.J. said:

A hybrid mid engined AWD ZR1 would be interesting.

 

Give it the ability to tow 20k pounds, seat six, and get 50mpg, and it would hit all the marks for the GRM Perfect Car that Nobody Bought because they waited to buy one used.

Don't forget, it has to be brown, a wagon (shooting brake), and cost less than a new Mazda 3!

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon SuperDork
7/22/19 12:47 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Knurled. said:
T.J. said:

A hybrid mid engined AWD ZR1 would be interesting.

 

Give it the ability to tow 20k pounds, seat six, and get 50mpg, and it would hit all the marks for the GRM Perfect Car that Nobody Bought because they waited to buy one used.

Don't forget, it has to be brown, a wagon (shooting brake), and cost less than a new Mazda 3!

And there has to be a diesel option.

Mike
Mike SuperDork
7/22/19 12:49 p.m.
BlueInGreen - Jon said:
z31maniac said:
Knurled. said:
T.J. said:

A hybrid mid engined AWD ZR1 would be interesting.

 

Give it the ability to tow 20k pounds, seat six, and get 50mpg, and it would hit all the marks for the GRM Perfect Car that Nobody Bought because they waited to buy one used.

Don't forget, it has to be brown, a wagon (shooting brake), and cost less than a new Mazda 3!

And there has to be a diesel option.

Three on the tree.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
7/22/19 1:16 p.m.
Knurled. said:
T.J. said:

A hybrid mid engined AWD ZR1 would be interesting.

 

Give it the ability to tow 20k pounds, seat six, and get 50mpg, and it would hit all the marks for the GRM Perfect Car that Nobody Bought because they waited to buy one used.

Wow. Thanks. 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/22/19 3:09 p.m.

In reply to T.J. :

I'm merely in awe that these are the times we live in.

 

We're talking about a car that was the bullE36 M3 session ridiculous idea award winner... and now it's in all likelihood going to be production.  Full stop.

 

Wow.

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
7/22/19 5:16 p.m.

Here's how I'd spec it, with the red interior. Z51 2LT and HRE P101s:

For anyone worried about markups, places like the Kerbeck Corvette Superstore gets HUGE allotments and will most likely be selling them at or near invoice in a few months after introduction... They've done it for the C6 and C7s, as well.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/22/19 6:53 p.m.

In reply to Chris_V :

From that angle it kinda looks like a 7/4ths scale Europa.

 

 

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/23/19 7:09 a.m.

In reply to Chris_V :

I like that blue as well, although I'd go with the tan interior:

For those curious, the online builder is here.  It's a bit laggy. 

I agree about Kerbeck. They currently show four 2019 Coupes in stock with manuals for just under $45K, although part of the fine print is some of the "Additional Offers" discount applies to "current Corvette owners of at least 30 days". So... go buy a derelict C4 for peanuts and flip it afterwards. 

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
7/23/19 8:38 a.m.

I bet the Honda Engineers and management are crying in their morning coffee. The new NSX is already having a hard time. Now here comes the C8, obviously set up for a future electric/hybrid AWD version that will most likely still be way under $100k. That will be the final nail in the NSX’s coffin. It’s already too close in price to a base McLaren and now GM have a platform that looks as good, will eat the NSX for lunch by the time you add another 100-150hp to. The front wheel with electric power at 2/3rds of the price. 

Count me in the like column. 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
7/23/19 9:14 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson said:

I bet the Honda Engineers and management are crying in their morning coffee. The new NSX is already having a hard time. Now here comes the C8, obviously set up for a future electric/hybrid AWD version that will most likely still be way under $100k. That will be the final nail in the NSX’s coffin. It’s already too close in price to a base McLaren and now GM have a platform that looks as good, will eat the NSX for lunch by the time you add another 100-150hp to. The front wheel with electric power at 2/3rds of the price. 

Count me in the like column. 

Acura's unoffical selling point on the NSX has been "It's not a double priced Corvette; it's a half priced Ferrari!" With the Corvette now aimed squarely at the "looks and runs like a Ferrari at a faction of the price" market, I'll bet Honda is worried here.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
7/23/19 9:39 a.m.

It does look good in blue. I'd have the black interior. I also like the transparent roof option:

https://visualizer.chevrolet.com/ui/2020corvette/b36839f3

wspohn
wspohn Dork
7/23/19 11:32 a.m.

Like the blue - if only because the trim they decided to paint black doesn't show up as glaringly (if I had any other colour C8 I'd probably paint the trim body colour.

Disappointing that it is so heavy. Losing a driveshaft = an even heavier car?  Like a quarter ton more than comparable super cars??  They probably  won't sell them at the proposed list price anyway - they'd have been better to have tacked on $10K and put it into lightening the car.

Having said that, I do like it way more than I thought I would based on the test mule pictures. The Transformer toy approach to the aesthetics of the C7 made that one a non-starter for me, but this isn't bad at all.  Still not quite what I'd want ideally, which is probably along the lines of a 600 bhp modern day Miura, but that's probably too much to hope for (although a modern Miura wouldn't weigh 2800 lbs. any more unless they used a lot of modern materials)..

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/23/19 11:43 a.m.

The weight is likely the side effect of meeting that price point. It's still fiberglass with an aluminum chassis.

Throwing out some WAG speculation, the Z06 could have a mild power increase combined with various weight saving changes - more carbon fiber, for example. The ZR1, big power and AWD; maybe using hybrid bits, maybe not (we would need to see what provisions they made with the car on a lift - maybe if/when GRM gets one to test, JG?). The GS, somewhere in between.

The0retical
The0retical UberDork
7/23/19 11:44 a.m.

Yes please.

Too bad the suede and cloth don't come in anything other than black or Grey/Black (not that I object to that combo.)

I'm seriously trying to figure out how to rearrange my finances so I can afford one of these new.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
7/23/19 12:09 p.m.

I'll take mine in the darker red with body color side vents, tan interior, no roof, and yellow calipers.  Just to piss off the Ferrari people.

Mike
Mike SuperDork
7/23/19 12:12 p.m.

 

I probably wouldn't go with the silver stripes, but I like how they look with the silver engine cover.

 

This is increasingly looking like my preferred spec when I don't know prices: Zeus Bronze, 2LT, body color accents, Z51, FE4, suede + natural GT2 interior and belts, chrome badging, carbon flash open spoke.

Brian_13
Brian_13 New Reader
7/23/19 12:59 p.m.
KurtK01 said:

My observation is that the rear end is too busy. May be the first thing GM re-designs.

I don't think that's likely. Automotive styling usually gets busier with facelifts, not cleaner. And the current trend in general is to silly excess, not elegant simplicity.

Brian_13
Brian_13 New Reader
7/23/19 1:12 p.m.
Gingerbeardman said:

You can't shorten the gap between rear of the door and the rear wheel wells...there is an engine between there. That length is necessary on a longitudinal setup. The only way that distance could be shortened is going to a transverse setup.

EVERY MID ENGINE CAR WITH A LONGITUDINAL SETUP HAS THIS "GAP".

DeTomaso Pantera, Lotus Esprit, Ferrari 348, F355, F360, F430, F458, F488, Pista, Tributo, Lamborghini Gallardo, Huracan, Audi R8, etc.

The only mid engine cars with a shorter "gap" are all transverse setups: Fiat X1/9, Lancia Beta Montecarlo, MR2 (all three gens), Fiero, etc.

Excellent point and illustration. My only contribution would be more examples which illustrate the importance of engine packaging to proportions; any list of transverse configurations like this should include the Lamborghini Miura, and even the Ferrari Dino and 308 show their transverse-enabled proportions relative to subsequent Ferrari models. The transverse engine allowed the Ferrari 308 GT4 and Mondial to fit in a rear seat without stretching longer than typical longitudinal 2-seaters.

Brian_13
Brian_13 New Reader
7/23/19 1:23 p.m.
white_fly said:
PDK as in a Porsche-developed dual clutch gearbox? How did they make it work? I want to know for... reasons.

It seems pretty straightforward. The C8 uses the classic mid-engine layout of longitudinal engine ahead of the rear axle line, and the transmission portion of the transaxle hanging out the back. Any mid- or rear-engine Porsche transaxle has the same layout, although of course the rear-engine units need to be turned around to work (with a corresponding inversion or ring gear flip to go the right direction). Adapters to mount a GM small-block to a Porsche transaxle are readily available, due to demand for custom swaps and kit cars. Halfshaft compatibility is fixed with custom shafts, presumably using Corvette outer joints and Porsche inner. Electronic engine and transmission management would the usual nightmare, so not a problem for GM staff.

Brian_13
Brian_13 New Reader
7/23/19 1:29 p.m.
Knurled. said:

Now I wonder about a CVT with a manual lever, where the lever position sets the engine RPM.  That'd be pretty cool.

While a fixed-ratio transmission is never in quite the right gear, the solution is not constant or even driver-controlled engine speed, because you would never be at the right engine speed. A good CVT is programed to take the engine to the best speed for the currently requested level of power (accelerator pedal position); the only manual intervention which makes sense is a mode selection to tell it when to vary from the ideal speed to be ready for suddenly higher power demand... such as running the engine speed higher on corner entry than the modest power level needs, to be ready for the higher power in corner exit.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/23/19 6:07 p.m.

After all of the “It’ll have E36 M3ty parts-bin interior” interior predictions, these seats look like a not-bad place to park my ass (at least the driver’s side)

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/23/19 6:10 p.m.

Also, while I dig the brownish-bronzish, the proverbial “NYG” appeals to my inner 90’s gangster rapper sensibilities.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair MegaDork
7/23/19 6:54 p.m.
poopshovel again said:

Also, while I dig the brownish-bronzish, the proverbial “NYG” appeals to my inner 90’s gangster rapper sensibilities.

I get that, but I’m still hung up on teal with Sawblades.

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS Dork
7/23/19 11:17 p.m.

I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on this car in Z51 guise for my 50th birthday in about 16 months.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/23/19 11:19 p.m.
AnthonyGS said:

I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on this car in Z51 guise for my 50th birthday in about 16 months.

They look so good in white!

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
7/24/19 12:27 a.m.

I'm torn between Torch Red and Wimbledon White myself...I think mid engine cars look best in red, but white is just so CLEAN.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
7/24/19 7:30 a.m.

Nice to see you can get some over the top and obnoxious interior color combinations...

And you can also make the side scoops body colored instead of black.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/24/19 7:45 a.m.

I need to go back and see how much the body colored accents add to the price... I have to admit they do look better.

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
7/24/19 8:16 a.m.

Can't wait to see this in person. Having a hard time understanding scale in photos.  I know it's pretty big and I don't love Corvettes or larger cars, but still, glad they did this.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/24/19 8:54 a.m.

In reply to turtl631 :

I’ve seen a couple amateur videos on instagram that give a better sense of scale. Like the C7, I have a feeling I’m going to like it better in person than in pics.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/24/19 8:56 a.m.
AnthonyGS said:

I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on this car in Z51 guise for my 50th birthday in about 16 months.

I wasn’t seriously considering it until last night. I showed Mrs. Poop the “Zeus Bronze.” She is on board surprise

And agreed: White is the hawtness as well.

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
7/24/19 9:15 a.m.

I've always said that for a car design to be truly beautiful, it has to look good in white because white shows all body lines. If it looks best in black then the design is weak because black hides body lines. I've always respected Vettes based on my racing a C5 and a turbocharged Z06 but being a Porsche guy and advocate of mid/rear engine cars, I am now a fan of the C8. What GM has done is incredible and I can see the average age of Vette owner getting lowered a little with this car.

poopshovel again
poopshovel again MegaDork
7/24/19 9:27 a.m.

The “visualizer” tool is fun. While Zeus Bronze is still a contender, I dig the Arctic White & Blade Silver Metallic, too.

Z51 package, black trident wheels, black optional spoiler & mirrors. YASSS PLZ!

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
7/24/19 9:44 a.m.

Ceramic Matrix Gray is my favorite color with a little red bling and a wing.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/24/19 10:00 a.m.
poopshovel again said:

I’ve seen a couple amateur videos on instagram that give a better sense of scale. Like the C7, I have a feeling I’m going to like it better in person than in pics.

Agreed. I see quite a few C7's on the road and they definitely seem to look better in person than in pictures.

For scale, Motor Trend did a comparison to the Ford GT (current) and noted the C8 is actually a bit shorter.  And after watching the Leno video about the car, it doesn't come across as being particularly large. 

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
7/24/19 10:20 a.m.

A lot of naysayers on another forum I visit are now putting down deposits and the general feelings toward the car have changed significantly after the release of the configuration and pricing.  Sounds like it’s being well received.

spacecadet
spacecadet Dork
7/24/19 11:33 a.m.
Mike
Mike SuperDork
7/24/19 6:31 p.m.

I wish we had pricing. I've reached out to two dealers to get the process started.

Anyone else not sure they want a Z51 pack? I'm starting to think non-Z51 and 2LT instead of Z51 and 1LT.

This is to be a four season car, and I think my ideal but expensive choice would go Z51+FE4+snows, followed by the standard car. The wing looks like a pain for trunk access anyhow. That's the first thing I'll check if the tour comes to Chicago.

I'm wanting some of the purchase experience things, like the R8C museum delivery and number plate set. Maybe take the PIN RPO to get Dad's '53 serial put in the VIN. Maybe see about the track experience too. 

 

Edit: PIN was, based on prior generations, a $5000 option. I'll take a random VIN. 

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
7/24/19 7:56 p.m.
Mike said:

 

This is to be a four season car, and I think my ideal but expensive choice would go Z51+FE4+snows, followed by the standard car. The wing looks like a pain for trunk access anyhow. That's the first thing I'll check if the tour comes to Chicago.

 

Love it - I drove my C6 Z06 in winter here in Milwaukee on base C6 sized wheels with Michelin Alpin PA4.  Even drove in some actual snow storms with a couple inches accumulating on 94.  It did well enough...I never got stuck.

Daylan C
Daylan C UberDork
7/24/19 8:13 p.m.

Apparently a friend of a friend saw one of these in the wild already. (Not /THAT/ surprising since he does live in Bowling Green) might be delivery blocks still in place but it looked like it rode unreasonably high. 

Edit: added the stolen Facebook pic.

 

Mike
Mike SuperDork
7/24/19 8:34 p.m.

Calling it now... someone will go to a baseball game in their vette, store the speedbumps in front of the stadium in the GPS, and then, six months later, have the axle lifter trigger in an autocross in stadium parking lot. The front end will come up while navigating a sub-25mph Chicago box at some corner of the course.

The0retical
The0retical UberDork
7/24/19 9:13 p.m.

In reply to Mike :

Best autocross loss excuse ever.

I'm split on the Z51 package. On one hand I want the extra cooling on the other; how often will it really be put to use?

I guess it'll depend on how much the package costs in most cases, but it would be a highly interesting head to head (hint hint editors)

Opti
Opti Dork
7/25/19 8:53 a.m.

In reply to The0retical :

In the past I would have always chosen the performance options over comfort and livability options, but I was having this exact conversation with a co-worker yesterday.

I think the limits are so high on this one I'd probably be happy with a base and nicer interior.

Ideally I'd want the 2LT and Z51 but then it might become a 70k car and I'm just a pheasant. 

I was wonderingr if I track a base model or autox it and something happens will it be covered or will it be like the crammit where only the 1LE is covered.

Also how much is the gearing and ediff gonna make a difference, cause let's be realistic, im going to drag race it all the time. I mean I have a Miata that's been to one autox but has made probably 40 drag passes, and it's not even fast.

Kreb
Kreb UberDork
7/25/19 9:37 a.m.
loosecannon said:

I can see the average age of Vette owner getting lowered a little with this car.

I'm really interested in how this plays out. I forsee some traditional Vette guys not being willing to embrace the change, but with luck they'll be more than offset by a new crop that's never previously considered the car.

Frankly I think that this puts pressure on many of the absurdly expensive exotics. "Let's see. Explain again why your $500K car is superior to a $75K Vette that's just as fast and doesn't cost me the price of a Hyundai every time it breaks."

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/25/19 9:49 a.m.

In reply to Kreb :

Perhaps, but folks who tend to buy new Italian exotics do so because the high cost to purchase and maintain and the exclusiveness that brings is what they want. It's the same line of thinking that makes some with the means pay exorbitant dealer mark-ups for early cars.  

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
7/25/19 9:51 a.m.

In reply to Kreb :

I think you are right about the C8 drawing in more new customers than pushing away Corvette die hards, or at least I think it's within the realm of possibility. But I think you might have the wrong idea when it comes to how it's going to affect the rest of the market.

I absolutely think that the C8 is going to put pressure on its direct rivals like the NSX, 911, or GT-R, but I don't think it will be doing much to the 720S' and Aventadors of the world. The reality is that part of the reason people buy those cars is simply because they can. These are the people that buy S and G65 AMG's when the 63's are buy all accounts better vehicles. The C8 is insane value for performance, but some people have completely different ideas of what constitutes value.

Edit: I think the more possible scenario would be these people actually considering the C8 as part of their fleet. It's less likely a case of "one or the other" but "both and" when it comes to those types.

Kreb
Kreb UberDork
7/25/19 10:05 a.m.

In reply to MTechnically :

IRT the exotics, you're probably right. But I think of a well-heeled friend who changed over from Ferraris to Porsches. At a certain point he said basically "Why am I paying this huge ego tax?"  You're always going to have your Saudi prices buying their Paganis, but a certain - probably small segment is going to ask "As a smart guy, why am I buying a stupid car?"

 

camaroz1985
camaroz1985 HalfDork
7/26/19 8:48 a.m.

I heard it is going to be at Corvettes in Carlisle next month.  Definitely might be worth taking my boys (3 year old twins) over for a look.  I wonder if they (GM) will put it in the parade through town.  For the Ford Nationals, Ford had a whole fleet of vehicles that they brought out for the parade, surely GM could drive one C8.

JimS
JimS Reader
7/26/19 1:36 p.m.

It will have to have a much nicer interior to get me out of my 911. I've also owned a number of GM cars to question  it's quality. It'll be fast but numbers aren't everything, especially for a street car. 

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
7/26/19 2:11 p.m.
JimS said:

It will have to have a much nicer interior to get me out of my 911. I've also owned a number of GM cars to question  it's quality. It'll be fast but numbers aren't everything, especially for a street car. 

The thing is, a 911 isn't a $75-80k car anymore. The 2020 911 has a starting MSRP over $113k. And that's before Porche's infamous options are tacked on. It better be one hell of an interior to justify that $50k+ price difference with the C8. If Porche 911 buyers are even considering the Corvette that's a big win for GM.

For $113k, One could buy a C8 and a Camaro SS 1 LE and still have a few thousand left for track consumables, or extra sound deadening or whatever. Or they could wait for the faster, more expensive Vettes to come along in a year or two.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/26/19 2:24 p.m.

The Corvette seems like it could be similarly priced to a 718 Cayman, the least-expensive sports car that Porsche currently offers. That's impressive.  

spacecadet
spacecadet Dork
7/26/19 2:45 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

At that point the only draw of the Porsche are the badge and the Manual. Which are relevant.

I'll be curious to see how the features of a 718 Cayman S and C8 Z51 stack up against each other  dollar for dollar. I'm sure the Porsche will be more expensive..  But how much is the real question.  

JimS
JimS Reader
7/26/19 5:27 p.m.

You don't have to buy a new 911. I chose a used 911 over a new C7 and have no regrets. As I said before I've owned a lot of GM cars and my son has a Cayman S and I have a 911 and all I can say is you get what you pay for. I know performance wise the Corvette is a lot of bang for the buck but there's more to a car than numbers. 

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
7/26/19 5:36 p.m.
JimS said:

You don't have to buy a new 911. I chose a used 911 over a new C7 and have no regrets. As I said before I've owned a lot of GM cars and my son has a Cayman S and I have a 911 and all I can say is you get what you pay for. I know performance wise the Corvette is a lot of bang for the buck but there's more to a car than numbers. 

You must have a much newer 911 than I do.  My 80s era 911 interiors are nothing to write home about,  even my past 993 and 996.  Then again I don’t buy my sports cars based on the interior.  I personally really like the c8 and think it would be a nice complement to my German and Italian sports cars,  but I also like variety,  so ymmv.

JimS
JimS Reader
7/26/19 5:59 p.m.

I agree. I have 991 and my son's is a 981. I don't buy for an interior but you need to be comfortable and feel good. I also like variety. I had an s2000 before my 911, a z28 before that, a couple gti's, an rx7 etc. I happen to like the simplicity of the interiors of early 911's. I just think most cars are over styled today. Everyone have different tastes and likes and I respect everyone's opinion. I think the car will be a big success. 

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
7/26/19 6:20 p.m.

I haven't read every comment in this thread but with the C8 now in the same league as the Ford GT, will it have crazy resale value like the GT has? If you want an American made, mid engine supercar (yes, I'm calling them supercars) would you rather have a V8 or twin turbo V6? I can't wait to see next years IMSA and WEC races against these two

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
7/26/19 6:20 p.m.
JimS said:

I agree. I have 991 and my son's is a 981. I don't buy for an interior but you need to be comfortable and feel good. I also like variety. I had an s2000 before my 911, a z28 before that, a couple gti's, an rx7 etc. I happen to like the simplicity of the interiors of early 911's. I just think most cars are over styled today. Everyone have different tastes and likes and I respect everyone's opinion. I think the car will be a big success. 

I like the simplicity of the 911 interiors too,  but it’s things like the hvac controls that crack me up.  For the heat and ac there are three different control panels to adjust them in the 80s cars if you have ac.  I’m fine with that,  you get used to the quirks,  but these days people would lose their minds over that type of thing.  Back then you were just happy to have even mediocre ac (at best) in an AC 911. laugh

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/27/19 6:44 a.m.
loosecannon said:

I haven't read every comment in this thread but with the C8 now in the same league as the Ford GT, will it have crazy resale value like the GT has? 

Doubtful. One reason for the high GT resale values is the limited production numbers. Once production gets going, Chevy will build more C8s in a month than the entire (current) GT production run over a few years. 

Jay_W
Jay_W Dork
7/27/19 11:29 a.m.

Zora is smiling like a Cheshire cat right now

NOT A TA
NOT A TA Dork
7/27/19 11:43 a.m.
Cotton said:
JimS said:

I agree. I have 991 and my son's is a 981. I don't buy for an interior but you need to be comfortable and feel good. I also like variety. I had an s2000 before my 911, a z28 before that, a couple gti's, an rx7 etc. I happen to like the simplicity of the interiors of early 911's. I just think most cars are over styled today. Everyone have different tastes and likes and I respect everyone's opinion. I think the car will be a big success. 

I like the simplicity of the 911 interiors too,  but it’s things like the hvac controls that crack me up.  For the heat and ac there are three different control panels to adjust them in the 80s cars if you have ac.  I’m fine with that,  you get used to the quirks,  but these days people would lose their minds over that type of thing.  Back then you were just happy to have even mediocre ac (at best) in an AC 911. laugh

^^^ I have an 86 Cabrio, fiddled with the HVAC controls when I first got it and got frustrated. Never tried to use the heat or AC afterward.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/27/19 12:10 p.m.
Kreb said:

Frankly I think that this puts pressure on many of the absurdly expensive exotics. "Let's see. Explain again why your $500K car is superior to a $75K Vette that's just as fast and doesn't cost me the price of a Hyundai every time it breaks."

 

That's a feature, not a bug.

 

You're looking at exotics as a tool to go fast.  The true purpose of an exotic is to show off how much play-money you have.  Or at least, how much play-money you want other people to think you have.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
7/27/19 2:09 p.m.
Knurled. said:
Kreb said:

Frankly I think that this puts pressure on many of the absurdly expensive exotics. "Let's see. Explain again why your $500K car is superior to a $75K Vette that's just as fast and doesn't cost me the price of a Hyundai every time it breaks."

 

That's a feature, not a bug.

 

You're looking at exotics as a tool to go fast.  The true purpose of an exotic is to show off how much play-money you have.  Or at least, how much play-money you want other people to think you have.

Some people buy them because they want an amazing sports car.  Weren’t you the one that said not to judge a double parking Camry owner?  Lol

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/27/19 3:14 p.m.

In reply to Cotton :

I'm speaking of generalities, not absolutes smiley

 

This forum in particular should be familiar with the idea of speed being cheap if you are more concerned with having fun than impressing other people.

 

And to be fair to the exotics, if they couldn't perform, they wouldn't be all that much of a status symbol.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
9/5/19 1:02 p.m.

I've just seen my first C8 in the wild, no camo.  I was running errands at lunchtime.  I was surprised at how much it looks like a Corvette if that makes any sense.  I saw it head on at first, opposite from me as I was at a stop light.  We both turned right, away from each other so I saw the side.  Never saw the rear.  It was dark burgundy and as soon as I saw it my brain went 'Corvette, no, that's not right it looks different.......oh, it's a new C8'  IT also looked taller (height) and shorter (length) than I expected.  I don't think the color suited it TBH.

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon SuperDork
9/5/19 7:13 p.m.
Cotton said:
Knurled. said:
Kreb said:

Frankly I think that this puts pressure on many of the absurdly expensive exotics. "Let's see. Explain again why your $500K car is superior to a $75K Vette that's just as fast and doesn't cost me the price of a Hyundai every time it breaks."

 

That's a feature, not a bug.

 

You're looking at exotics as a tool to go fast.  The true purpose of an exotic is to show off how much play-money you have.  Or at least, how much play-money you want other people to think you have.

Some people buy them because they want an amazing sports car.  Weren’t you the one that said not to judge a double parking Camry owner?  Lol

So, this summer I got lucky enough to ride and drive around a track in a few high caliber sports cars.  The C8 Z06 is plenty fast, capable, and makes a great noise.  The 3rd gen. Viper is a sexy hammer.  The Ferrari (can't for the life of me remember if it was a 488 or 458) might not be much faster around Gingerman, at least in the hands of a mediocre driver, but even from the passenger seat it's on another level in terms of sounds, feel, looks, and all around special. It's hard to describe but the "Ferrari-ness" is real.  Now I completely understand why someone would pay the $$$ for the exotic even if the Corvette is equal on paper.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
10/15/19 4:05 p.m.

I'm surprised no one has posted now that the first reviews are out for the C8. It sounds like they've made it a great dual purpose car, made a nice interior, but from the factory it understeers, may not have great balance, lacks a bit of steering feel, brake feel. C&D found the C8 0.9 secs faster than the C7 around Grattan. Both cars had the Z51 package, but the C8 has PS4S tires, while the C7 has 1.5 gen older PSS, so the true performance difference is probably at most half a second. It sounds like the acceleration from low speeds is far superior in the C8.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/15/19 4:38 p.m.

In reply to Snrub :

The R&T review chalked the acceleration from a stop up to short gear ratios.

The R&T review was a little down on the car, but they always compare the Vette against a 911, instead of its actual price competition, a GT350 or, now, a Supra. I guess they do mention a Cayman but even the Cayman is way more out the door than a Vette.

The MT review seems like the most insightful one. The understeer tuned into the stability control is to prevent snap oversteer. On the plus side, the c8 can put all of its power down coming out of a corner. Brake by wire stinks (duh). Tl;Dr they are saving the supercar performance for the Z06.

 

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
10/15/19 4:59 p.m.

What's up with the availability on this thing. Getting a convertible even an option in 2020 or everything sold out  with addendums.    

 

 

 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
10/15/19 5:42 p.m.
wearymicrobe said:

What's up with the availability on this thing. Getting a convertible even an option in 2020 or everything sold out  with addendums.    

 

 

 

Do the words "UAW strike" ring a bell?

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
10/15/19 7:53 p.m.

Back in 2005, C&D had the 2006 C6 Z06 do the exact same 1:26.0 as the C8 Z51. The C7's performance was probably somewhere between a C6 Grand Sport and Z06 at Grattan. The C8's performance might be C7 Grand Sport level. At VIR C&D had the C7 put in essentially same time as the C6 Z06, which is very impressive, particularly given the Z06's weight and power advantage.

The C5 and C6 were very impressively low weight, particularly given the size of the vehicle, engine, etc. The C7 was just an evolution, but while it put on a bit of weight, it delivered more performance. We now have confirmed measurements of the C8 being almost exactly 500lbs over the C6 Z06. It's about 40lbs less than a Camaro SS. Using C&D nubers, the C8's low speed acceleration is impressive, but 0-150mph of the C6 Z06 vs. C8 with similar power is 17.9 vs. 19.4. 1/4 miles are 11.7 @ 127mph vs. 11.2 @ 122mph.

I guess my question is, does the base C8 chassis/suspension actually deliver much more performance than the C7? Sounds like it might have better behaved suspension and a more multi-purpose suspension. It's better value for the money than say the C6 Z06, but is an epoch leap forward? Would they be further ahead simply slapping the ZR1 suspension on a base C7?

MrFancypants
MrFancypants New Reader
10/15/19 8:46 p.m.
Snrub said:

We now have confirmed measurements of the C8 being almost exactly 500lbs over the C6 Z06. It's about 40lbs less than a Camaro SS.

Wow!

The C8 will no doubt be a very, very fast car.  But that weight is....  more than I expected.

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
10/15/19 9:02 p.m.

The C5 and C6 were very impressively low weight, particularly given the size of the vehicle, engine, etc. The C7 was just an evolution, but while it put on a bit of weight, it delivered more performance. We now have confirmed measurements of the C8 being almost exactly 500lbs over the C6 Z06. It's about 40lbs less than a Camaro SS. Using C&D nubers, the C8's low speed acceleration is impressive, but 0-150mph of the C6 Z06 vs. C8 with similar power is 17.9 vs. 19.4. 1/4 miles are 11.7 @ 127mph vs. 11.2 @ 122mph.

Interesting insights. Glad you posted that. yes 

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS Dork
10/16/19 4:03 a.m.
Snrub said:

The C5 and C6 were very impressively low weight, particularly given the size of the vehicle, engine, etc.

I've discovered, for me at least, lower weight equals more fun behind the wheel.  This also means I should get back to my fighting weight.....  

Heavy cars can impress, but they are not as much fun.

 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
10/16/19 5:22 a.m.
Dave M said:

The MT review seems like the most insightful one. The understeer tuned into the stability control is to prevent snap oversteer. On the plus side, the c8 can put all of its power down coming out of a corner. Brake by wire stinks (duh). Tl;Dr they are saving the supercar performance for the Z06.

 

Right.  Anything with a rear weight bias is going to naturally want to oversteer, so the suspension gets tuned to understeer.  And the side effect of being able to put down power out of a corner is massive understeer as you unweight the front tires.

 

It's a handling quirk that Porsche has been working on taming for over 50 years now.

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Reader
10/16/19 9:03 a.m.

In case anyone wants links to some reviews:

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/corvette/2020/2020-chevrolet-corvette-stingray-c8-first-test-review/

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29462701/2020-chevy-corvette-by-the-numbers/

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2020-chevrolet-corvette-preview/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a29471987/2020-corvette-c8-first-drive-test/

 

3,622 lbs?  Dang.  3,647 for Road and Track.  Also, comparisons to the 911 are more appropriate now, considering Motor Trend's tester was $88K and the other mags tested versions at similar prices.  My impression from reading these reviews was that the interior is much better, and the handling and braking are actually worse overall than the C7, but the extra power, weight over the rear wheels, and the dual clutch transmission are enough to compensate and make a faster overall lap time - mostly due to acceleration.  I imagine bumping the front tires up to a 255 would probably help with the understeer problem. Also, maxing out 2nd at 55mph will make for lots of awkward shifting while autocrossing, but I guess the transmission will make that mostly a non-issue.  I'm also gonna throw it out there that we'll never see a manual version of this car, as it would be a lot slower - that launch control and 8 speed auto are what's making the 0-60 times so fast.  A full manual would ruin that sub-3 second time.  I found it interesting that the Cayman was mentioned - handles better, brakes better, basically everythings better except acceleration, where it's only 0.7 seconds behind with less than half the engine size.  

 

And I still can't get used to that huge side scoop and camaro rear end.  The rest of the car looks alright and I'm sure it's a joy to drive, but those two design elements ruin the looks for me.  The C8 isn't really a car that excites me much, but I think the C9 is going to be spectacular.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
10/16/19 11:50 a.m.
infinitenexus said:

And I still can't get used to that huge side scoop and camaro rear end...  The C8 isn't really a car that excites me much, but I think the C9 is going to be spectacular.

I'm right there with you.  The C8 sounds like a hell of a machine for the money, but in photos I find it odd looking from many angles.  Better in the flesh, perhaps?  

classicJackets
classicJackets Dork
10/16/19 11:59 a.m.
nderwater said:
infinitenexus said:

And I still can't get used to that huge side scoop and camaro rear end...  The C8 isn't really a car that excites me much, but I think the C9 is going to be spectacular.

I'm right there with you.  The C8 sounds like a hell of a machine for the money, but in photos I find it odd looking from many angles.  Better in the flesh, perhaps?  

It's very good in the flesh

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Reader
10/16/19 12:58 p.m.

I imagine it's like the new Volvo wagon, that looks just okay in pictures and holy crap that's a gorgeous volvo in person.

G_Body_Man
G_Body_Man UltraDork
10/16/19 1:05 p.m.

It's excellent in person. The flank is significantly more curved than it looks in photos.

Error404
Error404 Reader
10/16/19 1:42 p.m.

In reply to G_Body_Man :

Curved is good, I suppose, but that new-Camaro rear end just undoes the styling in my eye. 

Then again, I'm also not a fan of the interior and the modernization steps they took but, I'm a young luddite...

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
10/16/19 3:25 p.m.

After recent years of a number of GM products having wicked suspension/chassis tunes, I was kind of expecting the C8 to be a dynamic tour de force. It doesn't sound like they quite got there. When they've developed previous cars with excellent handling, the front engine seemed like a handicap and I imagined they'd be unstoppable with a mid-engine design. Maybe the Grand Sport will be the model where they dial in the chassis for the kill, while the regular car, even with the Z51 package, will be more of a general performance car/grand tourer?

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
10/17/19 9:50 a.m.

The 5th gen Camaro rear end was a poor reference to a decent looking Corvette rear end. Now the tail is wagging the dog. I hate stereotypes but if I said "the c8 looks likes an attempt to make an MR sports car physically fit the kind of people who will actually buy it", i feel like most of yall would get my drift. I mean, im a prospective vette owner too and im not particularly old or heavy, but if i wait until i am to buy one I won't exactly be disproving anything.

I also think the C9 is likely to be amazing.  Even later C8s, but i doubt they'll ever change it enough to make it 'good looking' to my eye.

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon SuperDork
10/17/19 10:15 a.m.

So it’s still a Corvette, tame enough for old dudes to drive around town but with plenty of room to add mind bending performance to the hot rod versions.

And yes, they do look and sound wicked in person.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants New Reader
10/17/19 11:13 a.m.

Does the C8 look GOOD in person or striking?  Given that it's a big departure from old Corvettes or, frankly, anything we've seen before it certainly seems like a very striking car.

Not having seen it in person yet I think the issue I'm going to have with it is the same as I've had with much of GM's styling recently when it comes to the Corvette (C7) and Camaro.  It's that they went all in on the F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter aesthetic and now they're doubling down on it.  The C7 Corvette looks great to me at a distance, nice overall sports car shape with excellent proportions, but then you get close to it and start picking up on all the details that just go too far.  I believe that's how I'm going to end up feeling about the C8....  great shape, beautifully proportioned, but ultimately overstyled with too many creases and highlighted shapes where they just aren't necessary.  Too much design noise that distracts from the beautiful broad lines and shape of the car.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
10/17/19 11:57 a.m.

Regarding the weight - C&D now has a article on it. They attribute the gain to the DCT, extra cooling gear (which is probably worthwhile), bigger body size, ability to build RHD/LHD variants, bigger wheels/tires/brakes.

My take on some of the themes mentioned by recent posts: Historically the Corvette had clean lines, but the C7 changed that. The C7 ZR-1 in particular does not look nice, but much of it was for function. Modern "muscle cars" often do style by adding faux bumps, scoops, plastic contrast bits, etc. There is a contrast between artful style and tacky. I felt like the C7 embraced the later a bit. The C8 has some aspects I really like and some other stuff that feels a bit tacky.

Different types of people are attracted to different things and I'm sure they know who their market is. I had multiple occasions of driving by a construction site in the 6th gen Camaro, where I began to understand what it might feel like to be a women walking by. It received zero attention from most others. My RX-8 still turned heads towards the end of it's time with me, but the people were often younger; A kid yelled out "wow" as I drove by, a few months before I sold it. Young women whipped their heads around to see who the idiot was blipping the throttle on downshift, probably to be disappointed that it was not who they were hoping. Other people seemed sort of the opposite of the people who ogled the Camaro. No one looks at the FiST.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
10/17/19 12:35 p.m.

It's not even saddled with electric motors and a battery yet...

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
10/17/19 12:38 p.m.

I had multiple occasions of driving by a construction site in the 6th gen Camaro, where I began to understand what it might feel like to be a women walking by.

What about binders full of women tho? Whoops, wrong election cycle. Grab em by the Camaro!!

Why don't women buy Corvettes, anyway?

 

TopNoodles
TopNoodles Reader
10/17/19 1:10 p.m.

My coworker bought a C5 but his wife picked out the car. She found the car on Ebay, he bid below reserve and won anyway for a really low price, and did a fly and drive to pick up the car. Just because women don't buy corvettes doesn't mean they don't choose them :)

Coworker was looking at Miatas but made the right choice, there's no way he would have got a Miata nearly as nice as the Vette for what he paid.

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Reader
10/17/19 1:25 p.m.

I seem to be a bit of a rare case as I feel the C7 is the best looking Corvette so far.  Sure, there's a couple details on the body that got "GMed" up but overall I think it looks incredible.  And now with the C8 coming down the prices will drop, so hey maybe if I can land a decent job I can get a used C7 for a steal some time in the future!

Cloud9...68
Cloud9...68 New Reader
10/17/19 7:12 p.m.
infinitenexus said:

I seem to be a bit of a rare case as I feel the C7 is the best looking Corvette so far.  

 

imho, the C7 was the second-best looking Corvette so far.  Game, set, and match to the '56-57 C1.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
10/17/19 7:19 p.m.
Snrub said:

I was kind of expecting the C8 to be a dynamic tour de force. It doesn't sound like they quite got there. 

I'm not quite ready to call it just yet after a bunch og magazines tested a car on stock rubber that's criminally undersized in the front and no camber. I think the architecture is sound and I'm going to attribute a lot of this early grumbling to setup. There's a TON of adjustability in that suspension.

slowbird
slowbird HalfDork
10/17/19 7:43 p.m.

They probably left a fair bit of room for improvement in the base model setup, otherwise they won't have enough stuff to put on the fancy Z06 model or whatever that would make it worth paying extra for.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/17/19 7:45 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
Snrub said:

I was kind of expecting the C8 to be a dynamic tour de force. It doesn't sound like they quite got there. 

I'm not quite ready to call it just yet after a bunch og magazines tested a car on stock rubber that's criminally undersized in the front and no camber. I think the architecture is sound and I'm going to attribute a lot of this early grumbling to setup. There's a TON of adjustability in that suspension.

Yeah watch the smoking tire video and he's having a blast with the TC off. A little understeer? Sure. But this car has to do double old man and racetrack duty.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
10/17/19 8:59 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

I'm not quite ready to call it just yet after a bunch og magazines tested a car on stock rubber that's criminally undersized in the front and no camber. I think the architecture is sound and I'm going to attribute a lot of this early grumbling to setup. There's a TON of adjustability in that suspension.

Sounds like you've identified some ingredients for a piece we'd want to read! When will you guys be testing it?

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
10/17/19 9:35 p.m.
Snrub said:
JG Pasterjak said:

I'm not quite ready to call it just yet after a bunch og magazines tested a car on stock rubber that's criminally undersized in the front and no camber. I think the architecture is sound and I'm going to attribute a lot of this early grumbling to setup. There's a TON of adjustability in that suspension.

Sounds like you've identified some ingredients for a piece we'd want to read! When will you guys be testing it?

Man I'm still bitter that every other magazine in the world apparently got track time with these things in teh last couple weeks and we got F-all. 

But suspension-wise, they're very similar in design to the last few generations of Corvette. Lower a-arms with eccentric bolts and upper a-arms with chassis-perpendicular mounting that can be shimmed. Plus the aforementioned tiny front tires. Also, Z51s get threaded coilovers in the rear. There's definitely plenty of adjustability available.

b13990
b13990 Reader
10/17/19 9:49 p.m.

"The biggest enthusiasm gap I’m seeing seems to be between current Corvette hardcores and non-owners, with the latter being more excited about the new version."

That was something I wondered about myself. I posted a thread about it; the title was something like "Do quantum leaps within a model provoke a backlash?" Most of the people here answered "no," but they are (to paraphrase the article) probably more car enthusiasts / owners than Corvette enthusiasts / owners.

I think the bottom line is that when you fundamentally change what a model is, you're kind of expecting different people to buy it anyway- it's fundamentally different, after all.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
10/18/19 11:36 a.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
Man I'm still bitter that every other magazine in the world apparently got track time with these things in teh last couple weeks and we got F-all. 

 

I'm hoping that eventually one will show up at GRM HQ for a long term test. Maybe the factory is just getting the short tests out of the way first?

It also wouldn't surprise me if somebody loaned you their personal one if the factory decides not to let you have a loaner.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/18/19 12:04 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
Snrub said:
JG Pasterjak said:

I'm not quite ready to call it just yet after a bunch og magazines tested a car on stock rubber that's criminally undersized in the front and no camber. I think the architecture is sound and I'm going to attribute a lot of this early grumbling to setup. There's a TON of adjustability in that suspension.

Sounds like you've identified some ingredients for a piece we'd want to read! When will you guys be testing it?

Man I'm still bitter that every other magazine in the world apparently got track time with these things in teh last couple weeks and we got F-all. 

But suspension-wise, they're very similar in design to the last few generations of Corvette. Lower a-arms with eccentric bolts and upper a-arms with chassis-perpendicular mounting that can be shimmed. Plus the aforementioned tiny front tires. Also, Z51s get threaded coilovers in the rear. There's definitely plenty of adjustability available.

I know, it's funny to watch non-car guys on other forums, "Oh the car is setup for understeer, so it obviously sucks."

Uh, hey guy, fix the alignment just like every enthusiast does on every car. 

But these are the guys that never use the cars, they just read and parrot R&T, Motortrend, etc. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
10/18/19 12:20 p.m.

In reply to JG Pasterjak : I just saw the convertible version, and it's price(74K)  

Until then I was thinking nah!   Let them depreciate a little before I get excited.  
 

With  the convertible ?  Lust  is great.  
for the record, I owned 2 Corvettes in the past  

 

MrFancypants
MrFancypants New Reader
10/18/19 12:23 p.m.

As someone who doesn't own a Corvette I don't really find this car to be more appealing than a C7. If anything I find the C7 to be more appealing because I can get it with a manual clutch. 

At the same time I have to admit that the Corvette just isn't for me as I don't really care about having a car that can run with Ferraris on a track. A base Porsche Boxster speaks to me in a way that no Corvette seems to, in that the engineers who developed it were concerned with the finer points of driving engagement beyond spec sheet performance numbers and Nurburgring lap times. 

When I'm up in the mountains enjoying a nice drive I find that my 10 year old GTI with its modified suspension goes around corners on my favorite roads faster than I'm comfortable with from a safety standpoint, so when I look at this car all I can think is "what's the point? What would I actually use this car for?"

 Very cool car though, and I am happy that it exists, but I wish GM had taken the brand in another direction. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/18/19 2:14 p.m.

In reply to MrFancypants :

Just out of curiosity, what direction would you have preferred GM take the Corvette? 

MrFancypants
MrFancypants New Reader
10/18/19 2:57 p.m.
z31maniac said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

Just out of curiosity, what direction would you have preferred GM take the Corvette? 

Before I answer, I want it to be clear that I know what the Corvette is about, and has always been about.  So I don't want this to be taken as a criticism of the car.  It is what it is and it's wildly popular for a reason.

I think we're seeing the last generations of these kinds of high performance internal combustion powered cars.  If the idea of the Corvette is big performance at a low price, we're at a point where you can buy a sub-compact EV that'll do 0-60 in just over 3 seconds and the quarter mile in the mid 12's for half the MSRP of a C8.  It's only a matter of time until someone installs that kind of propulsion in a relatively light weight, stripped down two seat sports chassis and basically destroys the Corvette at its own game.

What I would like to see with the Corvette is perhaps some extra refinement perhaps at the expense of overall performance.  Give me the best, most visceral mechanical dino juice burning experience possible.  Give me telepathic steering that informs me of every pebble on the road, communicative brakes that make me feel like I'm touching the road, a rifle-bolt manual gearbox make it as joyful at all speeds as a Miata, and back it all up with the shove and sounds of one of the best naturally aspirated V-8s ever built.

Like most people I haven't even sat in a C8, much less driven one.  So maybe I'm wrong and it's actually all of these things and insanely fast.

NickD
NickD PowerDork
10/23/19 12:19 p.m.

Anyone see where Motor Trend put a C8 on a dyno and it turns out that GM was maybe be extra-conservative on their power ratings? As in 558hp and 515lb-ft of torque at the tires?!

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/23/19 12:50 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

That's the charitable explanation. Less so would be giving the press more powerful cars. Didn't the article mention that the official HP figures were SAE certified and as a result in production the engine should be close to the official figure?

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
10/23/19 12:57 p.m.

In reply to Dave M :

I read an article stating that the SAE certification process involves slowly moving the engine up the RPM and waiting for stabilization rather than just running through a single gear. I.e. heat soak/etc are problems. 

NickD
NickD PowerDork
10/23/19 12:58 p.m.

In reply to Dave M :

I know that in testing by a number of people, the Supra has been making a fair bit more than advertised. Billy Godbold, cam wizard at Comp, says that the numbers that Motor Trend published would be more than 98% VE, so the thinking is either that the dyno settings were adjusted to get those numbers, or GM slipped them a car with some serious skunkworks bits hidden onboard

"When MotorTrend Group tries to tell you the new 6.2L Vette makes 600+ Flywheel HP, you should probably run some sanity math. For a given displacement engine, you only have three "knobs" to make more power (RPM, VE and BSFC). To pass emissions, you cannot play all the race car games to get well past 90% VE at peak power. A really good BSFC is about .45 lbs/hp-hr. Maybe they should read their sister Hot Rod articles"

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
10/23/19 1:00 p.m.

I think there's an issue with the Motor Trend dyno tests. Maybe it's testing methods, or equipment setup, or the way that it's being reported but something is off.

When they tested the new Supra, (which Toyota rates at 335hp/365ft-lbs at the crank), the Motor Trend dyno test resulted in 332hp/387ft-lbs at the wheels.

When they tested the GT350, they showed 55hp and 20 ft-lbs extra at the flywheel.

Their 2019 Porsche 911 test showed 44hp and 88 ft-lbs more than advertised.

 

 

NickD
NickD PowerDork
10/23/19 1:09 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

I haven't seen said video or article or whatever. Does anyone know where they are doing their testing? Hot Rod/Roadkill always seem to do all their testing at Westech Performance and all their data seems to be pretty spot-on and realistic. It seems like Motor Trend would use the same location, but then why are their numbers off so bad?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/23/19 1:10 p.m.

Imagine a car magazine testing a new car on the dyno and sidetracking the internet conversation because they didn't quite understand what they were doing. Man, that would be weird. 

z31maniac said:
Uh, hey guy, fix the alignment just like every enthusiast does on every car. 

You say that, but I've had SO many conversations with brand new ND owners who don't understand why they should change the perfect, robot-set factory alignment with something developed by a bunch of guys in a garage. Never mind the fact that the robot-set alignment is "about in the middle" and that the car improves dramatically with a proper alignment, and this has been the case for every Miata built for three decades.

So not every enthusiast does it on every car. Certainly not on new cars. And journalists never do.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/23/19 1:13 p.m.
NickD said:

In reply to STM317 :

I haven't seen said video or article or whatever. Does anyone know where they are doing their testing? Hot Rod/Roadkill always seem to do all their testing at Westech Performance and all their data seems to be pretty spot-on and realistic. It seems like Motor Trend would use the same location, but then why are their numbers off so bad?

Well, for one they're testing at the wheels and then (unclear) to get expected flywheel numbers. If you test at the wheels, report at the wheels. And something definitely fails the sniff test on the Corvette runs. 

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
10/23/19 1:18 p.m.
NickD said:

In reply to STM317 :

I haven't seen said video or article or whatever. Does anyone know where they are doing their testing? Hot Rod/Roadkill always seem to do all their testing at Westech Performance and all their data seems to be pretty spot-on and realistic. It seems like Motor Trend would use the same location, but then why are their numbers off so bad?

I didn't see it specifically mentioned in a quick scanning of the articles, but this photo was included with the story on the 911 test, and it looks like the same place in the other stories too.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
10/23/19 1:26 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
NickD said:

In reply to STM317 :

I haven't seen said video or article or whatever. Does anyone know where they are doing their testing? Hot Rod/Roadkill always seem to do all their testing at Westech Performance and all their data seems to be pretty spot-on and realistic. It seems like Motor Trend would use the same location, but then why are their numbers off so bad?

Well, for one they're testing at the wheels and then (unclear) to get expected flywheel numbers. If you test at the wheels, report at the wheels. And something definitely fails the sniff test on the Corvette runs. 

It sounds like they're assuming a 15% drivetrain loss across the board for every car they test. They mention it in the Mustang GT350Supra and Porsche 911 articles.

So their formula is something like Wheel hp/tq X 1.15  = Crank hp/tq. But I just ran their numbers for the GT350 with that 15% assumption, and they're reporting even higher numbers in their articles than a 15% increase. And instead of considering that perhaps their estimates for drivetrain losses are really high for a modern vehicle, or that they could be different for different vehicles, they just report numbers that are high and hammer out articles like "You won't believe how underrated the new ________ is from the factory!"

iansane
iansane New Reader
10/23/19 1:27 p.m.

Those horsepower numbers make me immediately thing the car was an engineering special of hand picked parts but the article states that the car was originally dropped off for MPG testing. I can't imagine a MPG ringer being the same setup as a hp ringer, or am I crazy?

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
10/23/19 1:45 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

Except the OEMs have been beating 100% VE since the 1980s when they were first really able to play with intake runner lengths instead of having to make a carburetor happy.  Heck a '86 5.0 Mustang had peak VE of 102% in stock form.

 

 

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
10/23/19 1:49 p.m.

It's one thing for a turbo car like the Supra to be a bit under rated. BMW makes a regular habit of it and they have higher rated versions of basically the same engine. Thus the numbers seems plausible and the acceleration figures seem to align with the dyno.

I don't believe a n/a pushrod V8, with only intake manifold changes over the previous version, gained ~150hp (~1/3!) and now makes just shy of 100hp/L without extra revs, etc. Earlier in this thread I posted some acceleration figures from the C6 Z06 which has similar rated power, which out performs the C8 at higher speeds. I don't think that would be the case if the C8 truly made that much power.

I suspect Motor Trend decided to publish this because it creates a compelling story. They must know this doesn't seem right and there was likely an issue.

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
10/23/19 1:50 p.m.

Well, for one they're testing at the wheels and then (unclear) to get expected flywheel numbers. If you test at the wheels, report at the wheels. And something definitely fails the sniff test on the Corvette runs. 

Unlcear = 99% bullE36 M3. The drivetrain loss figures people use are almost ALL ridiculous. Just the thought that the losses scale linearly with added power is ridiculous. Then you get to the raw percentage % people are using and that's ridiculous. It seems like noone applies even the most basic sniff test before posting up extrapolated CHP numbers. 

On the other hand, it's also probably frustrating and sad to be in a publishing position that trends ever more toward 'Clickbait or perish'.  frown

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/23/19 2:43 p.m.

I once saw a respected tuner (well, respected by himself and with a surprisingly durable reputation) add in a bunch of "correction factors" and manage to double the actual measured horsepower to come up with a power number he liked as his final result. 

I 100% agree that it's not a fixed percentage. That's, like 115% at the flywheel! 

 

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
10/23/19 3:30 p.m.
Vigo said:

Just the thought that the losses scale linearly with added power is ridiculous. 

Totally agree. If between dyno runs I take off my air filter and muffler, I might see a 5% power bump. Has the friction in my driveline suddenly increased as well?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/23/19 3:41 p.m.

nderwatersaid:

Vigo said:

Just the thought that the losses scale linearly with added power is ridiculous. 

Totally agree. If between dynoruns I take off my air filter and muffler, I might see a 5% power bump. Has the friction in my driveline suddenly increased as well?

Drivetrain loss is part inertial, part friction. If you're doing power tests at a fixed wheel speed, you can take the inertial out of the equation. But if you're doing a sweep (ie, anyone who's not actually doing hard-core tuning), it's definitely a factor.

One of our dynos allows us to adjust the sweep time as it has a closed-loop resistance setting. We did a demonstration one time where we changed the sweep time between two runs and saw a significant change in measured power. The only difference was how fast we were spinning up the wheels and the mass of the driveline. Basically, we changed the inertial losses, and inertial losses are proportional to the power level of the car if you're running a fixed resistance (drum, eddy brake). It's possible that they're proportional to an exponent or something more complex, I've never really looked into it.

But there's also the fixed losses. So, awkwardly, drivetrain loss is a combination of a fixed amount and a percentage on most dynos. 

chaparral
chaparral Dork
10/23/19 4:17 p.m.

If you're losing 100 horsepower in a compact MR drivetrain, you'll need an transmission oil cooler the size of a midsize passenger car radiator to get rid of it. I don't think the C8 has that.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/23/19 5:49 p.m.

So to summarize:
Either GM snuck MT a ringer

OR

The MT Dyno results are miscalculated, miscalibrated or otherwise borked

But in no way is it possible that the LT in the C8 is actually putting out monster power with nary an upgrade over the C7.

 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
10/23/19 7:18 p.m.
chaparral said:

If you're losing 100 horsepower in a compact MR drivetrain, you'll need an transmission oil cooler the size of a midsize passenger car radiator to get rid of it. I don't think the C8 has that.

...  Don't cars that make that kind of power, that are intended to be used at a high duty cycle of that power, in fact HAVE transmission/differential oil coolers the size of radiators?  (I'm thinking of a Civic half-width radiator as sufficient for a 100hp engine assuming "100hp" of power also lost to the radiator in a 33/33/33 work/heat/exhaust efficiency ratio because it makes math easy)

 

How big are the trans and diff coolers on a Camaro or Mustang with the track package?

 

Most vehicles get away with it by having enough thermal mass in the drivetrain to handle quick bursts.

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
10/23/19 8:59 p.m.

I watched Matt Farah's take on it and I think this is going to be an incredible car. Yes he had some hesitations about the car on the street but I think they'll be addressed over time with better transmission programming. On track this thing was an absolute beast. $85k for the z51 fully kitted model; think they'll be $35k used in a few years like the c7? That would be absolutely nuts. 

classicJackets
classicJackets Dork
10/23/19 9:37 p.m.
Dave M said:

So to summarize:
Either GM snuck MT a ringer

OR

The MT Dyno results are miscalculated, miscalibrated or otherwise borked

But in no way is it possible that the LT in the C8 is actually putting out monster power with nary an upgrade over the C7.

 

My thinking is that if GM had slipped a ringer, the 0-60 times would also be significantly faster than what GM reported, right? Instead, they got exactly the number that GM published the production car would be at, on repeated attempts (IIRC). That much extra power would have to change that time, no?

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/23/19 9:54 p.m.

In reply to classicJackets :

A very, very good point.

I guess we'll just have to wait for some other Dyno pulls!

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/23/19 10:05 p.m.
classicJackets said:
Dave M said:

So to summarize:
Either GM snuck MT a ringer

OR

The MT Dyno results are miscalculated, miscalibrated or otherwise borked

But in no way is it possible that the LT in the C8 is actually putting out monster power with nary an upgrade over the C7.

 

My thinking is that if GM had slipped a ringer, the 0-60 times would also be significantly faster than what GM reported, right? Instead, they got exactly the number that GM published the production car would be at, on repeated attempts (IIRC). That much extra power would have to change that time, no?

Jason Cammisa agrees. An acceleration run is basically a dyno run with a lot of uncontrolled variables.

The C8 Corvette Stingray does NOT make 650 hp! ⁣

A certain media outlet published a story today that they dyno'ed one and got more than 500 hp at the wheels... calculating back to 650 hp at the crank.⁣

This isn't possible. 650 hp from 6.2 liters of displacement can't happen with at only 6500 rpm without forced induction. ⁣

Horsepower is a function of torque x rpm... and there's a maximum torque-per-displacement (otherwise known as BMEP, or Brake Mean Effective Pressure) that's vastly exceeded by Motor Trend's dyno runs. ⁣

MT's 630 lb-ft number suggests the LT2 makes 17.2 bar BMEP. The most efficient naturally aspirated engines are around 13. The LT2 is SAE rated at 12.9.⁣

Did it have turbos on it that no one saw? I suspect not... but they sure didn't show up in acceleration testing...⁣

Here's the real reason I know the dyno results are invalid. See the screen-shot on image 2.

This is my acceleration simulator. My nerdiness knows no boundaries, but I've been using this calculator since the early 1990s. ⁣

I inputted a DynoJet plot from a 7-speed manual Z51 C7 I found on the Internet... 417 hp and 415 lb-ft at the wheels. Then I plugged in the C8's actual weight, gearing, tire size, and I estimated drag coefficient and frontal area.⁣

The numbers (in black, on the right) line up almost exactly with the testing results @roadandtrack got (in red) - within ~0.3s all the way to 150 mph.⁣

The most damning is top speed, which calculates to 182 mph. Chevrolet claims 184 mph for the Z51 C8. I'd expect a couple mph higher with the C8's LT2 engine (495 hp instead of the C7's 460 that I used here.)⁣

If the thing really made 650 hp, top speed would be vastly higher. Like, 200+ mph.⁣

MT's dyno piece doesn't pass science muster. I'm disappointed that they published it — something was clearly broken on that dyno. They should have brought it elsewhere and re-tested. ⁣

Or at least realized that the numbers didn't line up with the reality of their tests. ⁣

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
11/4/19 3:35 p.m.

In reply to Dave M :

What the fine folks at the enthusiast rags have yet to understand is the the Tremec DCT is setup like the ZF or Graziano DCT...there is a drop-gear set that feeds the ring and pinion.

The gear ratios listed aren't the actual gear ratios, those drop-gears add a multiplicative effect. So when they are testing in whatever gear, without accounting for that multiplier effect, they are interpolating a higher wheel-horsepower number.

Most of the enthusiast dynos use a weird correction factor (not talking about SAE weather/density/air temp correction factors) that is based off a 1:1 output times the final drive ratio...i.e., 4th gear. It's the reason why Porsches and Ferraris will read high or low on the dyno, depending on what gear they measured in. Do a pull in an overdrive gear, they appear anemic. Do a pull in a 1:1 + gear and they appear overly optimistic.

I'll repost with the actual gear ratios and the drop-gear ratios when I find them in my stash of data.

So take this with a grain of salt because this is a leaked document, not an official GM spec-sheet, but since GM has released 3.62 final drive ratio for the base model C8 and 3.80 final drive ratio for the Z51, that would make the drop-gear set 1.35ish for the 3.62 to net 4.89 and the drop-gear set 1.36ish for the 3.80 to net 5.17.

 

Here you can see part of the drop-gear driving the ring and pinion on the right hand side in this cutaway:

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/4/19 3:53 p.m.

I've never come across this correction factor. Changing the sweep time (ie, running a different gear on an inertial dyno) will have an effect because that will affect the actual torque delivered to the wheels.

Don't assume 4th is a 1:1. That's true for a lot of 5 speeds, but not for a lot of 6 speeds (the T56 being a notable exception, with two overdrive gears). Heck, the ND Miata has a 1:1 in 6th.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
11/4/19 4:22 p.m.

There is an article by a dyno engineer (the guy who designed one of the first inertial roller dynos, not engine dynos) that explain it better than I can paraphrase. But I'm not here to argue dynos, so I'm not going to search it out right now.

I was referring to the "American" state of mind regarding manual transmissions...every American design 4,5,6 and 7 speed manual transmission installed in cars, trucks, etc. has 4th gear as a 1:1 ratio because the input shaft is locked to the mainshaft in 4th gear...making it a straight-through design. Muncie, Mopar, T10, Toploader, Saginaw, etc. etc. etc.

(The one caveat was the Doug Nash/Richmond non-O.D. 5 speed where 5th gear was the input locked to the mainshaft in straight-through output).

This was also true for 3 speeds (3rd gear was straight-through) and even the 4 speed with O.D. ala truck "toploaders" and the Mopar A833 OD...3rd and 4th gear levers at the case were flipped, so "3rd" gear was actually 4th and 3rd gear was an OD.

T45, T5, T56, T6060, T6070, etc. all have 4th gear as straight-through with add-on O.D. gears in 5th, 6th and 7th.

So in this regard, I'm not comparing American to European/Asian transmission design philosophy, I'm comparing what the original (aftermarket, i.e. Mustang) roller/hub dynos were designed/programmed towards...5.0 Mustangs, 350 Camaros/Firebirds/Corvettes, etc. That was where most of the aftermarket development was geared towards. 

In any case, ignoring a drop-gear set multiplicative factor will skew the results upward or downward because it's part of the overall gear compounding affect.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/4/19 4:39 p.m.

1:1 is used because it has the lowest losses. Doesn't matter what gear it is numerically or where the gearbox came from. Saying that you use the 1:1 (if possible) is accurate, saying that it's 4th is irrelevant. The dyno has no idea how many gears there are other than the one it's in.

I didn't know that all US transmissions had 4th as the 1:1 due to design legacy. That's interesting.

You don't use the 1:1 gear on an ND Miata (or, I'm assuming, a Caterham which also has a 1:1 top gear) because wheel speeds get into unrealistic (and dangerous) ranges and the car will also throw an early rev limiter. These speed-dependent rev limiters can lead people to incorrect conclusions.

Even then, if you test in a different gear, you're still going to be in the same ballpark. Ending up 100 hp off is a sign that you've got something wrong.

I suspect the reasons that Ferraris read low on dynos is due to a little bit of optimism on the part of the factory :)

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
11/4/19 4:45 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I've never come across this correction factor. Changing the sweep time (ie, running a different gear on an inertial dyno) will have an effect because that will affect the actual torque delivered to the wheels.

I don't follow (not a dyno guru or even a higher-level maths person)...an engine develops a set amount of torque based upon airflow (intake, heads, cam), rpm, fuel, timing and programming. So when GM says an LS3 develops 460 lb/ft of torque, SAE certified, it's based on the engine, not the gearing. 
Now I do understand that the GM ECU can use a feature called torque limiting, which uses programming to derate the output to soften the load on the drivetrain, but that's an engine being electronically held back, not the engine itself outputting less than it's individual rating.

I also understand a torque curve, that not all power is available at all RPMs. But regardless of whether the transmission is in 1st gear or 6th gear, it's outputting the same amount of torque at the same RPM...i.e. 4500 rpm. So, in my mind, if the dyno is using "good" math rather than fudged formulas, you can back out that torque number using the known gear ratios (trans X final drive) and tire diameter.

So please correct me if I'm not understanding, because I really would like to understand. I'm not being a smartass, I'm just confused.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/4/19 4:55 p.m.

The SAE numbers quoted by GM are at the flywheel under fairly heavily controlled conditions.

We're measuring at the wheels, which is a different thing. There are a bunch of losses in the drivetrain, and those losses aren't a constant. They vary depending on how fast we're accelerating the drivetrain (inertial losses) and how much friction there is in the drivetrain which is more of a constant. The faster you accelerate the drivetrain, the higher the inertial losses and thus the lower the torque you're actually delivering. That's why you'll see a different output for a low gear (fast acceleration) and a high gear (slow acceleration). Think about how much effort it takes to spin up a flywheel quickly versus slowly - the transmission and wheels are that flywheel. Plus, of course, the actual flywheel :)

That's assuming an inertial type dyno where you basically do an acceleration run against a fixed load like a big drum or an eddy brake.

The other way to measure is at a fixed RPM which takes inertial losses out of the equation but involves unrealistic levels of engine loading and rapid engine temperature gain.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
11/4/19 4:57 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

1:1 is used because it has the lowest losses. Doesn't matter what gear it is numerically or where the gearbox came from. Saying that you use the 1:1 (if possible) is accurate, saying that it's 4th is irrelevant. The dyno has no idea how many gears there are other than the one it's in.

 

*This I understand and it makes sense, though it's fundamentally flawed as gear multiplication does affect torque output...300 lb.ft X 3.00 (1st gear) X 3.00 (final gear)= 2700 lb.ft @the tire...300 lb. ft X 0.50 (6th gear) X 3.00 (final drive)= 450 lb.ft @the tire*

 

I didn't know that all US transmissions had 4th as the 1:1 due to design legacy. That's interesting.

 

*Probably due to legacy manufacturing equipment...that's why the LS1 has the same bore centers as the SBC*

 

You don't use the 1:1 gear on an ND Miata (or, I'm assuming, a Caterham which also has a 1:1 top gear) because wheel speeds get into unrealistic (and dangerous) ranges and the car will also throw an early rev limiter. These speed-dependent rev limiters can lead people to incorrect conclusions.

 

*This has always surprised me about dyno runs...in 4th gear most American enthusiast cars, the wheelspeed is well over 100mph! Being held onto a platform with ratchet straps!*

 

Even then, if you test in a different gear, you're still going to be in the same ballpark. Ending up 100 hp off is a sign that you've got something wrong.

*This...so much this*

 

I suspect the reasons that Ferraris read low on dynos is due to a little bit of optimism on the part of the factory :)

*On the older ones, I agree. But with the newer ones, you can't argue with their real-world performance AND say the numbers are fudged. I think it's because of the way the formulas on the inertial roller dynos are implemented...I don't think the difference between a .89 (6th gear on F430) and 1.11 (5th gear on F430) x 4.30 (final drive F430) pull should matter if the formula is based off real-world formulas i.e. torque@RPM, divided by gear ratios.*

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/4/19 5:02 p.m.

I have to leave to go to SEMA, but here's something to look at. Same car, same gear, back to back runs. The difference? We changed the sweep time. The difference you see is the difference in inertial losses. That's why you see different dyno numbers in different gears, because your inertial losses change.

https://flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/NC_sweep_times.pdf

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
11/4/19 5:13 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

The SAE numbers quoted by GM are at the flywheel under fairly heavily controlled conditions.

We're measuring at the wheels, which is a different thing. There are a bunch of losses in the drivetrain, and those losses aren't a constant. They vary depending on how fast we're accelerating the drivetrain (inertial losses) and how much friction there is in the drivetrain which is more of a constant. The faster you accelerate the drivetrain, the higher the inertial losses and thus the lower the torque you're actually delivering. That's why you'll see a different output for a low gear (fast acceleration) and a high gear (slow acceleration). Think about how much effort it takes to spin up a flywheel quickly versus slowly - the transmission and wheels are that flywheel. Plus, of course, the actual flywheel :)

That's assuming an inertial type dyno where you basically do an acceleration run against a fixed load like a big drum or an eddy brake.

The other way to measure is at a fixed RPM which takes inertial losses out of the equation but involves unrealistic levels of engine loading and rapid engine temperature gain.

Straight cut gears are rated @99% efficient, helical gears @98% efficient. Non-hypoid gears (ring and pinion on-center like 10" QC) are rated @98% efficient (before the QC gears...so 98% X 99%= 97% efficient). Hypoid gears vary depending on off-set (amount pinion shifts from center) from 90-95% efficient. This is according to AGMA (the American Gear Manufacturers Association). None of this accounts for windage losses, frictional losses, etc. Just the "dry" ratings for the gearsets.

Most of the drivetrain loss is due to inertia of the various components...driveshafts, CV joints, axles, bearings, wheels & tires (the worst offenders). 

So I understand that there will be variability in the real-world compared to laboratory "perfect" conditions, but again (to ME) if the formulas the roller/hub dynos used were based on real data and not fudged formulas, all of this could be backed out using data at hand...gear ratios, wheel/tire weights, tire diameters @speed, etc.

There is way too much variability amongst dynos to be anything more than bragging numbers. I forget which magazine published the article, but using the same vehicle on different dynos produced wildly varying dyno sheets (the only variables that changed were the barometrics/weather...the vehicle didn't change up any parts to reduce variables).

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
11/4/19 5:16 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Have fun @SEMA! I haven't been in the last 7 years.

Any chance you can do me a favor and check out some of the vendor booths for cool stuff? I'm thinking mostly drivetrain (transaxles, transfer cases, etc.) related, Weddle Industries, Fortin, Weismann, etc.? Most of the magazines don't cover that stuff, too niche.

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
11/4/19 6:30 p.m.

Not on the Dyno topic, but the R&T PCOT lap time for the C8 was super fast!  Can't wait to see what the Z06 can do....

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
11/5/19 12:46 p.m.

It was a smidgen faster than a 2020 911 Carrera S. I'm not sure if that qualifies as unexpected performance.

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
11/5/19 12:54 p.m.

In reply to Snrub :

I mean, that Carrera S is, what, $120k as tested? And faster than a GT-R as well.

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Reader
11/5/19 12:55 p.m.

Carrera S also has an engine half the size.  Or less than half I think.  

 

Has anyone posted lap times from the C8 yet?  I'm curious how the GT500 and C8 lap times will compare.

06HHR
06HHR Dork
11/5/19 1:34 p.m.

In reply to infinitenexus :

Lap times at thunderhill are in the R&T PCOTY (Perfornance Car Of The Year) article.  Engine size has nothing to do with anything, Corvettes have always had big engines (even the 54 had a pretty large Six-cylinder) relative to other sports cars.  Porsches historically have had smaller engines relative to other sports cars.  Apples to Oranges for that one.  For what it's worth, the only cars in that test that outran the C8 on track were the Lamborghini Huracan and McLaren 600, try buying one of those for 70K..

Like it or not, the C8 is still a performance bargain compared to cars it can run with.  Wonder how fast the Z06 or ZR1 versions may be (or will ZR1 continue as a distinct model?)

 

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
11/5/19 3:03 p.m.

I'm not saying it's bad, it's just not unexpected is all. For example around VIR C&D had a 2013 C7 do 2:53.8, whereas a 2012 Carrera S did 2:58.9.

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
11/5/19 3:10 p.m.
Snrub said:

I'm not saying it's bad, it's just not unexpected is all. For example around VIR C&D had a 2013 C7 do 2:53.8, whereas a 2012 Carrera S did 2:58.9.

I stand corrected! I should have said, both the C8 and the 911CS are really, really fast!

mfennell
mfennell Reader
11/5/19 4:10 p.m.
Dave M said:

In reply to Snrub :

I mean, that Carrera S is, what, $120k as tested? And faster than a GT-R as well.

$143!  Sheesh.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
11/5/19 4:41 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I have to leave to go to SEMA, but here's something to look at. Same car, same gear, back to back runs. The difference? We changed the sweep time. The difference you see is the difference in inertial losses. That's why you see different dyno numbers in different gears, because your inertial losses change.

https://flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/NC_sweep_times.pdf

I added 10% more torque to a Pontiac on an engine dyno by sweeping it down instead of up! Went from 500ft-lb to 550.

 

Really, the only accurate measurement is steady-state.  Or just seeing what it will do in a car from a standing start, because we care about engine output for the purpose of accelerating a car.  If it makes 10% lower numbers but is 5% more effective at doing the job of accelerating the car, then it is "better" no matter what the dyno sheet says.

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
11/5/19 6:08 p.m.
mfennell said:
Dave M said:

In reply to Snrub :

I mean, that Carrera S is, what, $120k as tested? And faster than a GT-R as well.

$143!  Sheesh.

At that price not even dentists can afford it! Only orthodontists.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
11/12/19 2:40 p.m.

Interesting observation around here.  I think in the last few weeks I've seen more C8's on the road than I have C5's.  I've been seeing approx one C8 per day and few if any C5's.  I also saw more C8's in the week prior to going to SEMA than I saw at SEMA where I only recall seeing three.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/12/19 2:48 p.m.
Knurled. said:
Keith Tanner said:

I have to leave to go to SEMA, but here's something to look at. Same car, same gear, back to back runs. The difference? We changed the sweep time. The difference you see is the difference in inertial losses. That's why you see different dyno numbers in different gears, because your inertial losses change.

https://flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/NC_sweep_times.pdf

I added 10% more torque to a Pontiac on an engine dyno by sweeping it down instead of up! Went from 500ft-lb to 550.

 

Really, the only accurate measurement is steady-state.  Or just seeing what it will do in a car from a standing start, because we care about engine output for the purpose of accelerating a car.  If it makes 10% lower numbers but is 5% more effective at doing the job of accelerating the car, then it is "better" no matter what the dyno sheet says.

That's one way to determine driveline loss, a coast-down. I think that's how the Brits do it, they like to calculate crank HP. The problem with steady state is that it's not a realistic test of the engine. A 650 hp engine at WOT will not find itself at a fixed RPM, and you have to load the bejeebus out of it to get there which has all sorts of knock and heat management implications.

Standing start has waaaaayy too many variables to be useful for anything but dick measuring or actual racing. You can even take the exact same datalog and give it to different magazines, and they'll calculate different results. It's not useful for development.

There was a baby blue C8 at SEMA on the GM stand. I would like to request that nobody ever EVER order the baby blue leather interior. It looked atrocious.

kazoospec
kazoospec UltraDork
11/12/19 6:04 p.m.

Today we learned (perhaps surprising no one), the C8 is unlikely to be a good winterbeater.  

Allegedly, this was a GM test mule.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/12/19 6:28 p.m.

So, Motor Trend has come clean. The dyno runs were jacked up in two ways.

First, the dyno was set to "all wheel drive" mode, which made the dyno assume a much higher inertial load. I'm not as familiar with Mustang dynos as some other models, but I expect this basically doubles the inertial load for calculations. It's like trying to calculate horsepower using a 0-60 run and accidentally doubling the mass of the car.

Secondly, it has some sort of "road load" compensation which is intended to simulate the aero drag in the testing range. Haven't come across this myself, but it again messes with the inertial load assumptions. I don't know this particular parameter, but apparently it was off by 20%. 

They're also pulling a 15% drivetrain loss number out of - well, let's say thin air to be charitable - so that adds a random fudge factor to the numbers. We've seen that modern drivetrains are far more efficient than older ones because this is a way to get MPG, so using a blanket 15% is a recipe for inaccuracy.

They attempted to reclaim some legitimacy by doing an on-road dyno simuluation in 2nd and 3rd, and ended up with 395 at the wheels. That's in the realm of plausibility.

TL:DR - dynos are a tool that take some knowledge to operate properly. This wasn't completely MT's fault, the dyno shop should have caught it the moment the car put down unrealistic numbers. But you get more clicks when you publish outliers.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
11/13/19 7:16 a.m.

Interesting.

Keith - I disagree with you on one point; IMO it is Motor Trend's fault. I don't expect them to be as knowledgeable as say yourself, but the results clearly made no sense. They are presenting themselves as having a certain amount of expertise. When the results seemed too good to be true, it would have behooved them to take the car to a second dyno. Or don't publish the results.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/13/19 7:21 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

TL:DR - dynos are a tool that take some knowledge to operate properly. This wasn't MT's fault, the dyno shop should have caught it the moment the car put down unrealistic numbers. But you get more clicks when you publish outliers.

That's what sucks about journalism in general today. Any car guy knew that dyno number was COMPLETELY wrong, but they knowingly published something incorrect for clicks. 

#gladididntbecomeajournalist

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
11/13/19 9:03 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I mean, they're car journalists not investigative reporters. Half of us think they're just the PR outlet for OEMs (e.g. Gulia "car of the year"). I don't expect anything except snappy writing.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/13/19 10:45 a.m.

In reality, they're just guys up against a deadline. I agree that MT shouldn't have published, I left that part out. The dyno shop should not have provided the data to MT, MT should not have published and this whole distraction wouldn't have happened. But MT only had the car for a few days and the automotive audience was roaring for C8 content, so they went for it without double-checking.

GRM kinda did the same thing with the 2019 Miata when they put it on the dyno and discovered it had gear-related rev limiters. It was easy enough to get the whole story (and Miata specialists knew this was the case on the earlier ND) but in the rush to be first to print there wasn't enough investigation done and the conversation at the launch of the car veered off into the weeds. It's easy to do.

I do have to give MT some credit for not only explaining what happened without publicly throwing the dyno shop under the bus, but also attempting to develop some meaningful data using other tools they had available.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/13/19 11:25 a.m.
Dave M said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I mean, they're car journalists not investigative reporters. Half of us think they're just the PR outlet for OEMs (e.g. Gulia "car of the year"). I don't expect anything except snappy writing.

I get your point, but it was pretty obvious it was incorrect information. 

But then I don't read MT outside of the occasional online article, so I have no idea about the quality of their writers...........but if you're writing about cars, it seems it would be helpful to understand basic things about cars. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/13/19 11:28 a.m.

I once took a turbo ND to one of the major magazines so they could check it out and we could say hi. They had their online editor take it for a drive. It became pretty clear that he'd never actually driven a stick before. He published a flattering little listicle based on the car and I'm thankful for that, but I was cringing the whole time as we drove through LA.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
11/13/19 11:36 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

They understood it enough to suspect/accuse GM of delivering a ringer, and didn't really back down from that in their explanation of why their previous test was wrong.

Step 1: Publish obviously incorrect, sensationalist article that generates tons of clicks/discussion

Step 2: After initial fervor dies down, publish explanation article that gets similar attention but only includes non-scientific runs and a teaser for "the next time we get a C8 we'll do it again and get to the bottom of this..."

Step 3: After some time passes, and the attention fades, get another C8 and test it again for the "Did Chevy give us a ringer?!..." story and still  more clicks.

Whether it was intentional or not, they're now going to monetize the situation and milk this thing for all they can.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/13/19 8:17 p.m.

Could be worse, they could be publishing "the 50 wildest Supras we saw at SEMA!!"

At least this has some mildly interesting technical content wink

GCrites80s
GCrites80s Reader
11/13/19 8:51 p.m.
Knurled. said:
Keith Tanner said:

I have to leave to go to SEMA, but here's something to look at. Same car, same gear, back to back runs. The difference? We changed the sweep time. The difference you see is the difference in inertial losses. That's why you see different dyno numbers in different gears, because your inertial losses change.

https://flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/NC_sweep_times.pdf

I added 10% more torque to a Pontiac on an engine dyno by sweeping it down instead of up! Went from 500ft-lb to 550.

 

Really, the only accurate measurement is steady-state.  Or just seeing what it will do in a car from a standing start, because we care about engine output for the purpose of accelerating a car.  If it makes 10% lower numbers but is 5% more effective at doing the job of accelerating the car, then it is "better" no matter what the dyno sheet says.

This is why dirt bike dyno numbers haven't been a good comparison to how a bike actually feels on a track. When traction, weight loading/rider position and the fact that the wheel is off the ground so often become severe limiting factors a dyno queen can become covered in pig's blood. That's why dirt bikers say they don't race dynos.

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