No one has mentioned the GREEN.

If those running 13" wheels would like to email me dzajano at gmail letting me know the wheel width and tire size you plan to run, I'll look into getting some 13" 200tw tires imported through a current business venture. Tom, you're more than welcome to email me, or have someone email me regarding event sponsorship. 

Tom Suddard said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

To be frank: Telling everybody that $2000 cars run 9-second quarter mile times is super cool, and helps promote the event. Plus, a competitive drag tire setup is cheaper and lasts longer than a set of autocross slicks.

It also makes it seem less approachable when the Fastest production cars struggle to run 10s.  Honestly that's part of what took me so long to get excited enough to participate.  When I saw how well Datsaniti did with a more approachable 1/4 mile time I got excited.  

I'm not saying that drag slicks shouldn't be allowed.   

I know everyone hates class proliferation but what about a 3 class system?  If the goal is to bring MORE people in then don't turn anyone away. 

Street: for cars that have production unibodies or frames and are on 200TW for the whole event. mods still allowed for suspension changes/subframe swaps/radical engine swaps

Unlimited: tube frames, Non-DOT or DOT Slicks at either event (Autox or Drags) basically 2021 rules but bump tube frames to Unlimited.

Exhibition:cars in excess of the above rules or budget.  

It seems this would require 1 more column on the Results spreadsheet and 1 more award for the top Street class winner.  Top unlimited doesn't get an award unless they win overall.  

If your coming to compete a class division across the lines most people see should increase competition and participation.  The barrier to be competitive in Street should be a little lower and more approachable while still being a challenge car.  Magazine coverage opportunities should open once you have cars being built to try to win each class.  Editorial content on the best Unlimited cars would focus on different things then the best Street cars and be just as interesting.   

Just my thoughts in what has become the defacto Challenge rules thread. Class names can be whatever you want.  They are just placeholders. 

Tom Suddard said:

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

Sure, if that's what you'd like to do. Just let me know.

Please do, and maybe my brain will unberkeley itself by october.  

Tom Suddard said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

To be frank: Telling everybody that one family of engineers and fabricators with 40+ years of drag racing experience builds 9-second cars is super cool, and helps promote the event.

FTFY.

I'd be interested to know the percentage of new Challengers over the years that has joined because of the quickest drag times.

Tom Suddard said:

I'm not sure I explicitly said it, but I need to make this clear:

The alternative to fundamentally changing the event is not that things stay the same. We need to find a path to sustainability for the Challenge.

 

I am quoting this just to say I am pro having a 2000challenge. 

I have not been to a 2000challege but am planning on coming in next couple years. It is just a kinda far drive from Ohio. 

I won't care if I get last place. I think there is just something very attractive about building a "race car" for $2000 and then competing against other "car people". So for me the tire issue doesn't matter. (I do understand the people that are upset that they have already spent real world $. Or that have limited other tire options) 

So, caveats up front:

I don't have a horse in this either.  But, I do like thinking about rules, and finding win-win solutions.

My initial thought reading the first page last night was to suggest an "interim" 2022 setup, would be to tweak the tire ruling:

Any non-ACR 200tw+ tire is budget exempt

Any tire below 200tw is included in the budget

This seems to give a "gap" year for existing builds (and the people who are advocating for 'cheap take off slicks'); it monetarily encourages 200tw tire use.

The main "hitch" I see, is there's probably a 2-3sec dynamic benefit this one year to people using slicks in autocross, that might need to be considered?

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

I think the main problem people have is they are already locked into big purchases ie $1400 in Hoosiers.  Can't make it part of budget because they would then go over budget. 

This is the first year I actually have a semi-viable plan to participate in the Challenge. I was looking forward to seeing a lot of the big names there.

The car I'm bringing will be Gastropod level, and I expect to be way far in the back of the results.

As somebody that's never run in the event and won't be gunning for the win in any case, my opinion isn't that important,  but having two classes for one year seems like the best compromise. The open and street class divisions make sense in that regard. I may be way off-base here, but those classes also highlight the skill levels and accessibility to tools/facilities required to compete in those classes. 

So had Stampie not seen this and brought it up, and there wasn't a town hall about it, when was anyone planning on telling the competitors?

Stampie said:

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

I think the main problem people have is they are already locked into big purchases ie $1400 in Hoosiers.  Can't make it part of budget because they would then go over budget. 

That is a problem but it is a bigger problem for those cars that run wheels that have no 200tw availability. For example, 10 and 13 inch wheels. 

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

this is a concern I think that has completely been glossed over. I have no dog in this fight, but with that said I know it's their ball and they can play however they want. But I think blindly believing this is cheaper for everyone is not a smart move. The used market for r-comps is stronger and cheaper. 

But it's not my ball and I don't get to decide who plays with it.

RevRico said:

So had Stampie not seen this and brought it up, and there wasn't a town hall about it, when was anyone planning on telling the competitors?

It had been up less than 24 hours when he saw it; was just waiting to finish the registration page (which is now live if you're curious) so we could put a press release together and open up the event for registration/announce rules simultaneously before Christmas. 

With all that's been said in this thread, though, it's clear this needs a little more consideration. We'll chat amongst ourselves and officially unveil the rules in January. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

If those running 13" wheels would like to email me dzajano at gmail letting me know the wheel width and tire size you plan to run, I'll look into getting some 13" 200tw tires imported through a current business venture. Tom, you're more than welcome to email me, or have someone email me regarding event sponsorship. 

Importing tires doesn't seem very Grassroots. I would be one of the people needing 13 inch tires. I'll email you next week when I finalize my challenge plans.

If it weren't for the lack of 200TW tires available in smaller sizes, this change wouldn't really bother me.

The biggest problem I fear is that the Challenge is in existential danger. So much so that GRM is having to risk altering the event to court new sponsors.

If dozens of automotive youtube "influencers" can make money off mediocore content that pales in comparison to what GRM can get access to, then there must be a way to better monetize the Challenge. Other magazines like Motor Trend and Hot Rod have shown it is profitable to make the jump from print to new media, but they probably have much deeper pockets and connections. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Stampie said:

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

I think the main problem people have is they are already locked into big purchases ie $1400 in Hoosiers.  Can't make it part of budget because they would then go over budget. 

That is a problem but it is a bigger problem for those cars that run wheels that have no 200tw availability. For example, 10 and 13 inch wheels. 

That also.  Sitting here thinking that one possible future build would be outlawed for me.

Tom, I'm sure I speak for more than just myself when I say I love this event, and I appreciate the need for it to not cost you a small fortune to run. Thanks for listening.

In reply to karplus2 :

I will say, they wouldn't be the only thing on the container. I bring 4-6 containers over at a time, so potentially throwing another 45-120 tires into a container that's already heading over would be more efficient than shipping over any other method. 

For what it's worth, showing a challenge car competing on R compounds competitively within an outside sanctioning body would, imo, be a stronger presentation. (Other than an invoice for tires from between 10/21 and 12/21). Even stating that R comp take offs are cheap and available suggest that selling ones take offs wouldn't be an issue. The concern, in my mind at least, is the availability of 200tw options in 10-14" sizes. 

Would reaching out to said automotive influencers to have them enter vehicles help spread the word of the event?  It might help get people interested.

Maybe folks could take their stickered up challenge cars to their local cars and coffee event and try to get people interested in participating.  If half of the competitors talk one person into entering a car the monetization problem will be solved.

In reply to pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) :

This is part of why I want to run my Very attention grabbing $2000 challenge car at Hyperfest, Gridlife Midwest, and other big track events this year with as much Challenge stickers still on it as possible.  Draw attention to the event by showing a $2000 car doing not $2000 things.  

In reply to pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) :

I would LOVE to attend a Challenge where the likes of Tavarish, Cletus, etc are facing off in $2000 last-minute beaters and having their own side story while the Challenge unfolds (even though I don't particularly like many YouTubers, it would just be cool). Then Saturday morning there's a public Cars and Coffee in the lot next to the pavilion during Concours.

-not a marketer, just a big GRM fanboi. 

The influencers are a great idea, but unfortunately that goes back to the money problem. The event just can't support that kind of marketing expense in its current form. I get that it's a bit of a chicken or an egg situation, but being small means we don't have a big war chest to crack open for big risks.

The vast majority of the southeast's automotive enthusiast population aren't going to suddenly learn about this event and build for it in the next 10 months because of a new tire rule, that seems like the wackiest approach to advertising

Why not make a thread addressing the root problem, Challenge attendance needs to increase by 40-50%, what are some peoples ideas? 
 

More attendance is better for everyone anyways, more competition, more builds/cars to check out, more people to trade/buy parts from, etc. 

Random thoughts from someone who also has no horse in the race:

1) I'm skeptical that tire restrictions are going to solve any financial issues with the challenge.  Would a company only sponsor if it was 200tw+ only?

2) Could you partner with a local autox region and co-host the event to reduce operating cost?  Normal cars can run & a separate heat(s) for GRM challenge cars?  In addition - I know one thing that has always bugged me about autox times is: there is no frame of reference.  If you have some hotshoes in a local region running in nationally or regionally competitive cars, it gives us an idea of how 'fast' a challenge car is.

maschinenbau said:

there must be a way to better monetize the Challenge

Isn't the monetization of the challenge the magazine?  Coverage in the mag/promotion of the magazine?

In reply to cruisermatt :

Crowd sourced free marketing advice could be worth a fortune from the ground of people we have around here