I don't really have a dinosaur in this orgy, I do have the A6s that came with the Rampage but they are older and probably not optimal in anyway. Replacing 255-40r13s is gonna be hard but the Rampage is 4x100 and I'll deal.
I can say though that the 200tw idea isn't really gonna further your goal. There really isn't anyone out there that was on the cusp of having a challenge car that's excited about it but we're held back by the cost of tires. The tire sponsor is a cool idea, and having everyone compete with the same basic tire is great, but I feel that this is step 2 or 3 of the Master Plan.
Today I'm wearing a GRM shirt as is my wife. I have GRM stickers on my car. I drove an old Challenge car across the length of the country with GRM stickers on it. People notice a Teal and Silver Rampage a lot and everyone that sees it I tell them about GRM. I post pics of it online and mention GRM.
I have never met a person that has heard of GRM, every single one of them has heard it first from me.
That is the problem.
How many cars/entries makes this work? 50? 60? 100?
How about this very grassroots idea : design something promotional that we can all post on our Facebook page or even printed out. You have what....hundreds of people that read this forum everyday? We are all over the world, try and use that asset, hell my wife does graphic design, marketing, branding and all the Interstellar Sledgehammer stuff and she'd be happy to help if you want.
I bet that will net you 10 or 20 or 30 more entries better than a new tire rule. Then you get yo step 2/3 and get more sponsors.
I try to get people involved and I know a few that are interested, it's just the distance from Idaho that kills it for most. I wish someone close by Gainesville had a massive garage where I/we could stash the cars and just fly down for the challenge, a flight is easier to stomach than a week long 6 thousand miles round trip but I bet closer people would very interested.
I would definitely post promo stuff where I could and I bet others would too
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
Stampie said:
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
I think the main problem people have is they are already locked into big purchases ie $1400 in Hoosiers. Can't make it part of budget because they would then go over budget.
That is a problem but it is a bigger problem for those cars that run wheels that have no 200tw availability. For example, 10 and 13 inch wheels.
As said, no dog in this, but as an outsider, ad an amendment to the rule stating an exception for the sizes that have proven lack of availability?
As bobzilla said, not my ball. But I have also noticed that divisions based on money from our hosts, usually do not make sense to me as presented but said host... I'm sure there are money reasons that do make sense, just not the way presented. But that's from a guy that obviously does not understand money, since I've never had any!
Props to Tom (and no surprise!) for listening calmly to all the rants (including my unsolicited thoughts) and considering the best moves.
cruisermatt said:
Why not make a thread addressing the root problem, Challenge attendance needs to increase by 40-50%, what are some peoples ideas?
More attendance is better for everyone anyways, more competition, more builds/cars to check out, more people to trade/buy parts from, etc.
Hmm, how would you increase attendance to a quirky automotive event with a budgetary expense cap held in Central Florida?
Don't hold it in Central Florida. Partner with LeMons/ChampCar/Lucky Dog/WRL, etc. to hold GRM Challenge events piggy backed onto their events and then have the Cheapionship in Central Florida.
Many of the tracks they run at hold Friday Night drags or similar (not run by the Road Race staff, but a signed tech sheet and time slips from the same day should be sufficient), add a local autocross group to run an autocross with a special exhibition class added for GRM or similar. Some teams might be able to attend several events and some only one.
The issue really is that once you get away from the East coast, the cost and effort to attend goes up exponentially and that's hard for many to accomplish on a good year, let alone after 2 years of COVID and its related economic damage. Outside of moving the event or addding multiple events across the country, I don't see where you'll be able to add enough competitors. Sorry, I hope I'm proven wrong. Really.
A thread regarding attendance is stillq going to attract ideas from the minds of eyes already on the event.
Sponsorship is still the way to go. I'm honestly surprised that a bigger change to the rules, tube frame builds being limited to running the 1/8th mile, hasn't needed to happen.
With regards to increasing entries, makerspaces. Reach out to makerspaces and have a subclass for them to compete against each other. The event provides to opportunity for them to showcase what they and their members create and it also promotes GRM within the members of the makerspace community. Short of FSAE, you won't likely groups of minds and machining and fabrication equipment as ripe to produce challenge builds.
I appreciate all the marketing advice, and normally wouldn't share the internal stuff I've shared here, but I trust and respect you all, and I think we all have the same goal of continuing the Challenge tradition.
Here's my thought process for growing the event: We're not going to convince very many people to drop everything they're doing and build a top-10 Challenge car overnight.
But we could convince somebody autocrossing their Civic or doing track days in their Miata to come and play, especially if they feel like they might be somewhat competitive without major changes.
Once they've come to the event, you all have the rest handled: This community has shown an amazing ability to turn spectators into builders into attendees.
So, I'm focused on getting more people into the top of that funnel. Building a strong exhibition class does that, and I believe eliminating Hoosiers does, too.
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I think your assessment is accurate. I have next to no social footprint, so I'm no help there.
I wish I could offer garaged space... I could store a few cars, but outside with a car cover in a secure place in the country prolly ain't what most would want. And I'm about 4 hrs N of the challenge, too.
With a little help, I could finagle a 3 car trailer, and I have a truck to deliver them with, from AL to the challenge.
SV reX
MegaDork
12/23/21 3:30 p.m.
My 2 highest finishes were on used takeoff tires. (Including an overall 3rd place finish). My earliest efforts were when the cost of tires had to be INCLUDED in the budget.
The stated reason for taking tires out of the budget was that Kumho was a sponsor (and wanted cars wearing their tires). Kumho hasn't been a sponsor for a long time.
I think there are ways to get more people to show by lowering the cost of coming. Putting tires back in the budget would do it. So would having a special perk for anyone who didn't have premium tires (extra Concors points, special class, etc)
I understand this would limit some performance.
TW rating alone is not a good enough standard. In 2015 my car wore $48 worth of used takeoff race rubber. It still won 2nd in the autocross, and 3rd overall. A treadwear rule would have made these tires illegal (even though they were worn and near the end of their life). 200TW tires would have cost me a lot more.
I placed either 1st or 2nd (I don't remember which) in the autocross in 2016 in a Mini Cooper S. The only thing I did to that car was buy expensive tires (probably not the editorial content GRM is hoping for).
It IS possible to be competitive without expensive tires.
FWIW we (Trigonia bois) were planning on bringing two entries this year, and we could bring the BMW back for a third year, so that's triple the entires right there from the same three people that have attended with one entry for two years now.
now that I know there's an attendance push I'll be a lot more vocal with friends, Im sure we can get another few entries with regular cheap cars, an entry fee is an entry fee.
looks like I won't be needing these five sets of good used R7's that I got for free.
In reply to maschinenbau :
That's weird. Nearly everybody I came in contact with during my build knew the brand.
Has anyone modeled the scoring effect of slowing down the fastest autocross times but not changing the drag times? Seems pretty important since drag and autocross times are combined for the dynamic scoring.
I have two amendments to the rule proposal for consideration
1) You can run R compounds, but if you choose to, they must be included in your budget.
2) if the wheel size that came on your vehicle does not have a 200tw tire available in that diameter, you may move up in wheel size to an OE 15" wheel from any manufacturer to fit your vehicle with the wheels being budget exempt.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
We have, and results are mixed. A tweak to the formula for the dynamic scoring might be in order, but I wouldn't make that decision without a year of 200tw data to examine first.
Tom Suddard said:
I appreciate all the marketing advice, and normally wouldn't share the internal stuff I've shared here, but I trust and respect you all, and I think we all have the same goal of continuing the Challenge tradition.
Here's my thought process for growing the event: We're not going to convince very many people to drop everything they're doing and build a top-10 Challenge car overnight.
But we could convince somebody autocrossing their Civic or doing track days in their Miata to come and play, especially if they feel like they might be somewhat competitive without major changes.
Once they've come to the event, you all have the rest handled: This community has shown an amazing ability to turn spectators into builders into attendees.
So, I'm focused on getting more people into the top of that funnel. Building a strong exhibition class does that, and I believe eliminating Hoosiers does, too.
The logic is sound: get more people that already have the car and the want to do so but I wanted to add this:
Those people would be exhibition class anyway because they probably spent more than $2000 anyway and wouldn't have a build book with the budget in mind. How would a 200tw tire rule help them?
Getting people to the funnel is a good idea and totally sound, but I'm not sure the tire rule is the best way
03Panther said:
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I think your assessment is accurate. I have next to no social footprint, so I'm no help there.
I wish I could offer garaged space... I could store a few cars, but outside with a car cover in a secure place in the country prolly ain't what most would want. And I'm about 4 hrs N of the challenge, too.
With a little help, I could finagle a 3 car trailer, and I have a truck to deliver them with, from AL to the challenge.
Unfortunately I don't think there is a cheap secure parking garage anywhere even though that would be superb.
I don't really think that's an issue that could be resolved,I was just mentioning it basically.
maschinenbau said:
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:
I have never met a person that has heard of GRM, every single one of them has heard it first from me.
That is the problem.
Quoted for truth
And don't get me wrong, I like being in an somewhat exclusive group but I still wanna see the challenge go on for a long time.
Because then maybe I can actually get to one of them lol
As mentioned above, autocrossing locally and taking my challenge cars all stickered up to shows i have had like 1 person even know what GRM is.
Our building inspector is a lemons/chump/champ racer who knew the wartburg from the lemons essay contest but had no idea what Grassroots Motorsports Magazine is. Nor have anybody at any autocross events i went to this year that wasn't a forum participant or challenge builder already.
FWIW the GRM twitter account is woefully underutilized and you guys need to focus on spreading your brand on newer platforms and embracing the technology. I don't want the challenge to go away, nor do i want GRM to go away. I'm not saying make david caress his sideburns on tiktok with a GRM hat on while musing about cheap racecars, but I'm not not saying it either.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Has anyone modeled the scoring effect of slowing down the fastest autocross times but not changing the drag times? Seems pretty important since drag and autocross times are combined for the dynamic scoring.
A revised scoring analysis is absolutely on my list of things to do (unfortunately behind about a million other things). But, yes, this change will most likely compress the top autocross finishers (and the field overall) while having no effect on drag times, so a look at scoring is definitely in order to make this an equitable adjustment.
CrustyRedXpress said:
In reply to maschinenbau :
That's weird. Nearly everybody I came in contact with during my build knew the brand.
The brand itself, or the Challenge?
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:
Today I'm wearing a GRM shirt as is my wife. I have GRM stickers on my car. I drove an old Challenge car across the length of the country with GRM stickers on it. People notice a Teal and Silver Rampage a lot and everyone that sees it I tell them about GRM. I post pics of it online and mention GRM.
I have never met a person that has heard of GRM, every single one of them has heard it first from me.
That is the problem.
This is a very valid point. I'm wearing a GRM hat and/or shirt everywhere, in an area with around 200k+ people, and not once has anyone ever commented or questioned it.
I wear a GRM shirt to every single Nola autox, and no one has said anything about despite the fact I'm almost certain they know about us.
Hell, when I took the Challenge Vette to a Cars & Coffee I heard someone from a bit of a distance see the GRM decals & say something along the lines of "That's cute, he has his own magazine."
I don't know that making GRM "mainstream" is the answer, but it seems like there are a lot of people who should love this place & the magazines, but they've either never heard of it, or for some reason don't connect with it/us.
In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :
When I bought the fender flares for my Corolla I explained the Challenge to the seller . His response....."Oh. Kinda like LeMons racing then?" A car guy that has never heard of GRM. I too, wear GRM shirts to all my car events.
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:
2) if the wheel size that came on your vehicle does not have a 200tw tire available in that diameter, you may move up in wheel size to an OE 15" wheel from any manufacturer to fit your vehicle with the wheels being budget exempt.
that would not address the folks on here who have expressed there are no rims available for their car... allowing them to upgrade to something not available with out a cost prohibitive custom made rim, is a solution without a problem (at least how I'm interpreting it)
In reply to 03Panther :
I would be curious as to what their bolt pattern was. As there are very few completely, 100% entirely unsupported bolt patterns on post 1970 vehicles.
