No one has mentioned the GREEN.

SV reX said:

The second big thing I am aware of that increased attendance was the Gastropod class. Build on that. 
 

Again, simpler rules made more people interested. 

This. Lots of simple. Joe Public is pretty simple. Speak to that. 

In reply to KyAllroad :

Enabling someone while they're at the challenge is one of the most GRM things I can think of. 

Also, I like where Stampie's idea is going 

No matter the ruling I'll try to come to the event. Either exhibition or a car I purchase in October. The one thing nice about 200tw tires is I can use them up driving around after the event. 

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

Tom Suddard said:

The influencers are a great idea, but unfortunately that goes back to the money problem. The event just can't support that kind of marketing expense in its current form. I get that it's a bit of a chicken or an egg situation, but being small means we don't have a big war chest to crack open for big risks.

 

Challenge the influencers to put up or shut up. They might come for free. Heck, try to get those guys that did Roadkill to come and do the drags to set a reference time. 
No, wait, that might be a bad idea for them since the Nelsons might hurt their sponsor's feelings.

https://youtu.be/kv8Z6DNEM60

It happened.  The car was parked.  The Hemi got pulled.  They know we're here.

In reply to wheels777 :

Dead link, but I'm very curious about it. 
 

Hey, it's after midnight in the Eastern time zone. Merry Christmas! 
 

Oh, and I always mention "this one family from Pennsylvania," when I'm talking about the Challenge. You guys are awesome!

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Worked for me.

https://youtu.be/kv8Z6DNEM60

I've stayed out of this conversation because I am not, have never been, and will never be on the pointy edge of the challenge crowd.  But I have competed (and spectated) at quite a few of the events, so wanted to amplify/add to a few things that have been said.

1. Whatever Tom and the rest of the GRM staff need to do to keep the $2000 Challenge going in some similar form to how it is today is something I'll accept.  If it means rules tweaks to make a sponsor throw a ton of money at them to run the event, cool.  If it means changing the rules in a manner that should open it up to a lot more competitors, I'm game.  And on that note, my second point:
2. I agree the ruleset is getting too complicated again, but it's also allowing some utterly awesome builds, too.  I think a simple change to the classes/trophies can inspire more interest.  First, combine stock block/daily driver/gastropod into a single simple, official subset of the rules.  The stock block rules would keep the most radical builds out of the class, at least if you also specify the engine needs to be in the stock location.  No need to have separate recoup rules, though, that complicates it too much.  Second, if you want more participation, incentivize it in the trophy structure.  For this new class, have trophies for the top 3 finishers in the class.  That will legitimize it a bit more.  You could maybe even do a best drag and best autocross time for the class, but that may be a bit much.  Think of this as a "feeder" class of people who would buy a car on CL/FBM, and spend a month or two of weekends working on it, make it to the challenge, have a chance at trophying, and come away with ideas for a much wilder build next year.  We need as many new people as possible to give it a shot. 

I'll stay away from the race/200TW rule controversy, because I have nothing worthwhile to add to it.  The other thing I can't think of is a good way to publicize my new proposed class.  Need to find a way to get the word out to as many potential entrants.  Maybe some sort of grassroots flyer campaign at cars and coffee type events.  Maybe remind people who have families that aren't into cars they could drop them off at Disney for a weekend.

Edit - while this wouldn't work for the first year, maybe updating the way trophy winners are recognized in the challenge recap issue would help, too.  Keep the challenge spotters guide, but maybe in the lead up article feature the overall and "dailygastrostockblock" trophy winners more prominently, so more people notice them and get the germ of an idea to compete in future years.

Oh yeah, regarding youtube influencers, while I am sure there are more, I can only think of two prominent youtubers who might be willing to dedicate the time/effort to build a competitive challenge car, and honestly, I'd only want to meet one of them.

another idea, what about a simple set tire budget for all dynamic, for example, say $1K, and anything spent over that would cut into the $2000 build budget. (Not the other way around though, IE spend $400 on tires and then have an extra $600 budget).

I have not participated in the Challenge but would like to add my opinion for what it is worth. I believe a bought it fixed it up and running it class would get more people interested. Sure the neat fast crazy builds can get a lot of attention, but knowing if you go get a car and get it running reliable and show up and cannot even finish in the top half of the field is a bit of a hurdle to justify the cost. Sure the car is around $2000, but add in the exempt items and your easily almost double that. Then add in a week off just to attend.(not all of us can get there in a day) Entry fees and food for that week, your looking at nearly $8000 just to attend. All for finishing in the bottom third at best?  I not mean bash this at all just trying to let you know where I am on this. When I retire and can spend a lot of time out in the garage to build something competitive I would be more than happy to throw that much to come down and compete. But spending more than 60 hours a week for work and not seeing daylight from Nov to March during the week makes it hard to do anything during the week and I do have other interest besides cars. 

zordak said:

 knowing if you go get a car and get it running reliable and show up and cannot even finish in the top half of the field is a bit of a hurdle to justify the cost. 

I think this is exactly the mental barrier Tom is trying to address, and as a challenge veteran I can tell you it's not true. But really you are proving that the mental block is real for many people and should be addressed, somehow. 

BTW, your profile says you might be sorta close to Chicago (where I am). If you ever want to come work on a challenge car, just let me know!

There is a fundamental conflict of interest in this whole issue. 
 

The most complicated and creative builds make the best editorial content. But attendance is increased when builds are simpler and the bar is lower. 
 

Awards that reward the top competitors (with many years of experience and skill) don't reward Joe Average. 
 

Basically, the Challenge (which claims everyone can build a low budget race car) proves itself wrong because everyone CANNOT build what it takes to be competitive at the event. 
 

Until THAT issue is addressed, attendance will not increase. 
 

(My opinion is that will take different classes, or awards for different levels of preparedness)

Is this a Challenge or a 10 and under soccer league?  I've attended many years with basically stock Miata's and other cars without hope of finishing near the top. Being there, seeing old friends, meeting new friends, checking out wild builds and doing some spirited driving are the highlights for me.  Not everyone needs to bring home a trophy, especially if bringing a minimal-effort entry. 

In reply to zordak :

I think you just illustrated one of the issues and it's a perception that you must have highly modified cars to finish well and it's just not true. An engine swap is common , but extensive structural changes are not. I last competed in 2017 and eight of the top ten cars were stock unmodified monocoques. I would describe four of the cars as near stock, just bolt-on modifications, yet the perception exists that you have to be a skilled fabricator or mechanic to come and play. Somehow, we need to change that belief without resorting to limiting the event to only the Gastropod style cars that were run a few years ago. In the end there has to be magazine worthy content or the GRM crew are just being charitable and providing us a place to play and that's not a sustainable business proposition.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Last night I also had a thought:

Who is going to check the TW ratings? Tech inspectors at the track? What happens when someone who doesn't understand TW ratings shows up with the hot 140TW autox street tire? Are we gonna have to protest each other? Watch each other in the pits when people are swapping wheels and tires?

I do think there is a pretty significant logistical challenge to trying to enforce this kind of rule.

I haven't read through the entire thread yet, but this one stuck out to me. 

No offense to the tech inspectors, but we already know that they are not the ideal enforcement for rules like these. (See decal issues the past few years.)

That said, I also don't think challenge competitors are big on protesting other contestants. But if it comes down to this 200tw rule, and that slips past, I think protests are a lot more likely and honestly just not ideal. 

Point being, if this goes into effect, you need a GRM staffer or something at tech to verify this stuff.

In reply to zordak :

So, I'm definitely not singling you out or intending for it to seem so, but there are a number of hurdles and/or reasons not to for anyone to not attend. 

I recommend for anyone, at any location (Maryland and PA should especially, seeing the number of challenge entries from the region, so in part, I'm part of this problem) reach out to their local autocross sanction bodies about creating a regional class that is a 200tw class with budget restrictions that mirror the challenge. Then I'd reach out to our host here regarding the willingness to assist via publishing a seasonal recap or item regarding creation of the subclass if the piece is prepared with high resolution photos provided ready for editing and formatting. Obviously our host would have control over final content and could inform those who would be providing content of needed word count, etc. 

The idea of the exercise would be to provide an additional opportunity to enjoy the build through out the year and for mutual event exposure. 

In reply to Lof8 - Andy :

My point  wasn't to hand out a bunch of participation trophies and devalue the event. My point was to make it legitimately attractive to new participants to increase attendance. 
 

Classes and different levels of preparedness happen in all kinds of racing. (That's what PAX scoring IS)

I've been a couple times, twice with my car and another three times as a passenger/collaborator with eastsideTim.  Never at the pointy end of the field and certainly not a "regular", so take all that into consideration.

I think the concept is pretty cool.  Back in 2004 when Tim sent a link to the rules to me and said "I want to do this", I had never done anything like this before - never raced anything, never autocrossed, never even went to a kart track.  I could do some fairly basic maintenance items on cars, but never really DID anything.  Building an Integra-swapped/NOS-equipped 1gn CRX and taking it to the $2005 Challenge was my first time removing an engine from a car and the first time I ever did anything remotely motorsportsy.  Been hooked ever since.  I knew that things like Formula Vee existed in terms of amateur motorsports and that drag strips were a thing, but that was really about it.  The idea that one could start with a stack of a hundred 20 dollar bills and end up with a race car was pretty entrancing and something that I had never realized.

It was a fairly easy-to-explain competition as well:  You get $2,000 to buy and build a regular production car and compete in three events: car show, drag race, and this slightly-harder-to-explain-concept called autocross.  There was no real rulebook to build to other than the budget.  Sure, there were a few basic safety items for the drags and the autocross, but you didn't need to worry about having to apply different window tinting if you put a rear swaybar on because those two things came as a package from the factory or other bullcrap like that.

I may not be a representative sample, but my take on the event is that the way the rules are written, you're kind of blowing smoke up my nethers.  Go racing for $2000! you say.  But in order to do that, I also have to spend another $1200 on tires, $400 on new brakes, $150 on a harness, and so on until racing my $2000 costs me another $2000.  Oh, and you don't have to actually compete in all three events.  I've watched the past threads where people talked about wanting to make things budget-exempt to promote safety, and I understand those arguments, but I think it comes at a cost of making the challenge less authentic and I think that lack of authenticity dampens the enthusiasm of the new or casual competitor.

One other thing - and, honestly, I've been harboring this for over a decade - was something I overheard from either the awards dinner or maybe it was the evening meet-and-greet on the Friday evening after whichever events used to happen on Friday.  As I was looking at the timing results that had been posted, there were two of the editorial staff standing nearby.  I overheard their conversation which was really negative towards the cars that were not at the upper end of the field.  It's been far too long to remember the exact words, but the gist of it was that this would be so much better if we didn't have these plain cars and daily drivers that people just brought down clogging up the works.  I know the idea is to generate editorial content so that people will buy magazines to see and read about all the crazy builds.  Joe Normal who brings the $1200 Taurus that he's been using to deliver pizzas and finishes 48th out of 50 isn't particularly interesting to read about and isn't going to sell magazines.

But that then brings me to my final point:  What's your goal?  Using this as a content-generation event or a revenue-generation event?  Sure, it'd be awesome to be both, but if you want content, then I think the only way to do that is to accept a smaller field of cars that aren't really $2,000 cars and realize that you're going to lose money on the event itself, but you're buying content.  If you want to be revenue neutral, then you're going to need to encourage Joe Normal's Taurus to show up and tool about in last place while having a good time doing it.  And he's going to have to feel like he's at least got the same playing field - not that he showed up in a $2,000 car and got beat by a $2,000 car with another $2,000 of "exempt" parts on it.

I know I'm re-litigating things that have been hashed and re-hashed a million times before, so take all that for whatever it's worth.  Probably nothing, but you know....

Now that I've read through the thread, I'll put in some more input. 

1. I stand by my earlier comment about needing stricter enforcement of the rules at tech. If the enforcement comes after that, people are even more unhappy.
2. Less rules = Easier point of entry. 
3. Multiple Classes may be ideal. A lot of people here are experts at finding the limits of the rules, which is why there are so many. I really think the solution here is 2 classes. SSS (Super Simple Street) and Expert. And of course Exhibition. 
4. I like the idea of opening up exhibition more. Please figure out a good way to advertise that. Previously I always considered it a, "last minute my challenge car broke but I want to run something" class. Opening that up more is more appealing for me because honestly, with the distance I'd much rather drive a car down that can also compete, even in exhibition. 

Also, I noticed this new rule on decals, I'm guessing to save money on operating costs, but kinda defeats the purpose of the past few years of decal rules. Maybe this opens up more options for custom liveries, which could be good. I don't know. May want to think on this one some more too.  

• (Numbers and number panels will not be provided—All entries must display their number on the sides and rear of their car. Numbers must be a minimum of 8” (20.5 cm) high with a 1¼” (3.25 cm) stroke.)

In reply to AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter) :

Would the cost of self supplied numbers be in budget or exempt?           Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

I literally just lol'ed 

My problem is that I have a champcar and a project car.

My project car would need to run in exhibition.

If there was a cheap road race class, and include like SM spec30, champcars, lemons cars, etc that could actually challenge for a prize, I'd be interested.

Basically, what I'm saying is that it is a lot of work to build a legal (not even competitive) car for the challenge.

Even just buying a running car and showing up with it can be a bit of a hassle and then what do you do with it after? 

In other words, maybe more classes would help fill in the field.  Still give the biggest award to those under the budget cap.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I'd love to see a "budget endurance" racer subclass where the entry would have to have already run in lemons, chumpcar or similar. 

On a serious note......just a thought exercise, but people don't like exemptions because $2000 cars aren't really $2000 cars. I don't really like FMV either, and recoup has it's own set of issues for newbies. So, say I'm made the new Challenge event chairman and I say you need a $2500 car all in. No recoup, exemptions or FMV. You still need your safety gear to match the NHRA ET rules though. What would you bring?

In an hour of thinking about this I think my Corolla could still make it and be on road racing slicks  for the autocross and drag slicks for the drags. None of the tires would be brand new, I might have to drop the LS7 cam from the build and a couple of other non-performance items. I could also bring back my supercharged Miata on bigger wheels tires than last time.

What about you guys that have been before and understand the current rules well, what would you bring?....... and I'd also like to hear from folks who have never been. Would what I just proposed entice you to go?

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

I'd probably be bringing a stockish Corvair on used A7s, with a junkyard turbo blowing through a pair of small TBIs.

actually, damn that sounds like fun. Maybe that's what I'll do after MonZora. Assuming I can get it done "before the motor law."

In reply to zordak :

I did this with my $900 miata with a bad trans. I finished 18th out of 53? enteries in '17.