Proposed 2020 $2000 Challenge Rules

AngryCorvair said:

SVreX said:

I get what you are trying to accomplish. The phrase “pocket discount” is gonna be hard to explain to young people. 

What if it said “Parts acquired for free at junkyards that charge a gate fee must be budgeted at the cost of the gate fee with a receipt”.

are you simultaneously asking for the Ten Commandments to be revised to exclude "thou shalt not steal"?

Nope.

Trying to help an organization and event I care about avoid making themselves an easy target for all of the naysayers who already love to accuse the event and participants of being dishonest.

What's your excuse?

Updated parts lots rules:

A part’s cost may be pro-rated by weight or quantity if from a homogeneous parts lot (example: zip ties, nuts and bolts, a box of 20 identical axle shafts, etc.), or relative retail value if it was purchased as part of a heterogeneous parts lot (all-you-can-carry sales, storage unit buyouts, garage cleanouts, etc.) Relative retail value is calculated as follows:

1. Assign and prove a fair market value to every part in the lot.

2. Add those fair market values together to calculate the total fair market value of the lot.

3. Express the fair market value of the part you are pro-rating as a percentage of the lot’s total fair market value.

4. Multiply the actual price paid for the lot by that percentage in order to determine the part’s relative retail value.

SVreX said:

AngryCorvair said:

SVreX said:

I get what you are trying to accomplish. The phrase “pocket discount” is gonna be hard to explain to young people. 

What if it said “Parts acquired for free at junkyards that charge a gate fee must be budgeted at the cost of the gate fee with a receipt”.

are you simultaneously asking for the Ten Commandments to be revised to exclude "thou shalt not steal"?

Nope.

Trying to help an organization and event I care about avoid making themselves an easy target for all of the naysayers who already love to accuse the event and participants of being dishonest.

What's your excuse?

I like your new wording, SvRex. Fixed.

Tom Suddard said:

Updated parts lots rules:

A part’s cost may be pro-rated by weight or quantity if from a homogeneous parts lot (example: zip ties, nuts and bolts, a box of 20 identical axle shafts, etc.), or relative retail value if it was purchased as part of a heterogeneous parts lot (all-you-can-carry sales, storage unit buyouts, garage cleanouts, etc.) Relative retail value is calculated as follows:

1. Assign and prove a fair market value to every part in the lot.

2. Add those fair market values together to calculate the total fair market value of the lot.

3. Express the fair market value of the part you are pro-rating as a percentage of the lot’s total fair market value.

4. Multiply the actual price paid for the lot by that percentage in order to determine the part’s relative retail value.

I think I like this.

So, for example, I buy someone's loose collection of Ford parts for $100. There's 10 parts, I only need 1 for my build, I calculate FMV for each of the parts, and let's say the part I want is worth $100 FMV and the total FMV of the lot is determined to be $575. So then, I take 100 divided by 575 = .1739 x 100 = 17.39% of the lot FMV...then, 17.39% of the lot's purchase price comes to $17.39 which goes in the spreadsheet...right? It's been a long time since I was in math class. But yeah, this seems fair to me.

I'm already trying to figure out how to game all you can carry with that one expensive lightweight item. 

Re-read the rule. Weight doesn't matter but yes, this can be gamed. Not as much as the previous rule, though. 

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Thanks for changing the wording. The whole event runs on trust; encouraging theft in the rules erodes it.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

The lighter my expensive part the more I can carry of my Challenge build parts. 

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I like the parts lot ruling

Stampie said:

In reply to Tom Suddard :

The lighter my expensive part the more I can carry of my Challenge build parts. 

Yeah but how much does a radiator fan really weigh?

I'll do you one better. Get an engine harness and use it to string together multiple smaller parts like a rope to carry them all in one hand.

In reply to Robbie :

I've already done that. That's how I got all of Pat's GMT400 terminal blocks cheap.

all this is great...now if only i could find one of these all-you-can -carry junkyards

gumby said:

I have seen it before at certain tracks during competition events, but TnT nights are always excluded. It is a NHRA thing I believe. I have been told it is actually harder to clean up coolant vs. oil, and coolant does more damage to the VHT/rubber layer faster than oil.

Having said that, running the split lanes is advantageous in this situation. Maybe require the slick tire guys to run water only, as a further protection of their lane and their ability to run the best possible surface, but not make a blanket requirement for all competitors. I will third Robbie and Patrick in the fact that "no coolant" will be a hassle for competitors traveling from the north, myself included.

 

 

P.S. I was going to ask about a possible exemption for King of the Heap cars, but I see that the Lemons exemption has been removed. Carry on

so no more Lemons exemption??!!! I cant find all those receipts...plus technically my cage as cost effective as it was would bring me over budget.  Bummer

Patrick said:

In reply to JohnInKansas :

Never heard of one happening. 
 

the biggest takeaway i get from rules discussions is that some people cannot understand that this event is to generate editorial content and that some people are incapable of having fun.

The event was more fun when people spent more time building cars and less time trying to find loopholes. 

We have been to 14 Challenges, the 2019 event was one of the best.  If more people would recognize the purpose and intent of the event, and recognize the rules in context and spirit, it would elevate the whole experience. 

Patrick, you are spot on when you say some people are incapable of having fun.  Unfortunately there are some who are not capable of allowing others to have fun also.  If people don't have a sense of fairness or integrity you won't get this event.  You have to choose to be fair and have integrity.    It should not take 5 pages of rules.

Tom, more better.  Thanks.

The funny part is, even if you find more loopholes, then you just get to yell "look how I spent more than $2k on a $2k car" louder.

wheels777 said: 

Patrick, you are spot on when you say some people are incapable of having fun.  Unfortunately there are some who are not capable of allowing others to have fun also.  If people don't have a sense of fairness or integrity you won't get this event.  You have to choose to be fair and have integrity.    It should not take 5 pages of rules.

Tom, more better.  Thanks.

The rules and their discussion kept me away from even considering the event for years. Now that I understand how the event works, time and money have kept me away.

Now that I understand how it's supposed to work, it sounds like a lot of fun, provided you're not trying to win.

Robbie said:

The funny part is, even if you find more loopholes, then you just get to yell "look how I spent more than $2k on a $2k car" louder.

Don't make fun of my $4000 $2k car, "free to budget" parts cost money. Could be even more expensive if you use some of the FMV allowances. 

Brett_Murphy said:

wheels777 said: 

Patrick, you are spot on when you say some people are incapable of having fun.  Unfortunately there are some who are not capable of allowing others to have fun also.  If people don't have a sense of fairness or integrity you won't get this event.  You have to choose to be fair and have integrity.    It should not take 5 pages of rules.

Tom, more better.  Thanks.

The rules and their discussion kept me away from even considering the event for years. Now that I understand how the event works, time and money have kept me away.

Now that I understand how it's supposed to work, it sounds like a lot of fun, provided you're not trying to win.

It's a lot of work trying to win...but worth it. 

It's a lot of work to participate... and worth it.

It is a lot of fun!

Ultimately It requires having integrity if you want to have fun, develop friendships and be part of a great community.  But you will become very aware of the fact that most of the talkers are not builders.  You only get to meet the builders at the event, not on the forum.  I am not bashing the forum or the majority of the participants.  I am only alerting you to the fact that the majority of the builders are spinning wrenches not loopholes. 

In reply to wheels777 :

you will become very aware of the fact that most of the talkers are not builders. 

I wish I could like this post multiple times! 

In reply to Brett_Murphy :

I finished highest when i was on a backup plan with zero attempt to win.

I finished highest when I spent almost every free evening for a year and a half building the E36 M3 out of a car. And I probably spent 10x more time reading the NHRA rulebook compared to the Challenge rules.

Patrick said:

In reply to Brett_Murphy :

I finished highest when i was on a backup plan with zero attempt to win.

Same thing here. Bought a cheap pos miata, repaired it, threw some cash at an alignment and finished 18th.

I'm locking this thread to focus discussion on the $2000 Challenge Rules Finalization Thread.