Removing parts from a challenge car to recoupe money for other less expensive parts.

So I am in negotiations to purchase  a camaro to use in the CAM class.  It has Elliottport works heads on it which sell for around $1600.00 new.  It also has long tube headers.

If the guy even takes my offer I will be right near the budget limit but will need some room to fix a few things.

What would be the fairest way to recoupe the head and header values to make room.  I would like to keep the heads and headers for installation after the challenge so selling them isn't really an option.

I have a set of stock heads and manifolds already, and obviously they have a set value that is less than the stainless long tubes and ported lt1 heads.

I can't really fix the car fully and come in under budget unless I somehow extract some part value already on it.

Thanks

That sounds like normal recoup to me. What am I missing?

You've got to sell them to.......somebody. We've hashed that part out before. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I beg to differ- that’s not what is in the current rules:

“Q: Can I “sell” parts back to myself at FMV?

A: Yes, but this requires strong supporting documentation of the part’s FMV.”

So you have some Leftovers from the Parts car And want to sell off some parts for recoup. If "The Plan" was to use them on the next sb v8 challenge car then just sell them and keep the good heads on it, Not A Long Tube Header Advocate So ...........

SVreX said:

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I beg to differ- that’s not what is in the current rules:

“Q: Can I “sell” parts back to myself at FMV?

A: Yes, but this requires strong supporting documentation of the part’s FMV.”

This is what I thought, just wanted to make sure FMV to myself is still acceptable.

I don’t really see how selling my extra 8.8” rearend to myself at FMV and storing it for later is within the spirit of the rules.  That said I’m new to this event and don’t know but this seems fishy to me.  

And as I understand it even if you do this with a $1600 part, the max recoup is still $1000.  

In reply to AnthonyGS :

I don’t write the rules. 

Yes, max recoup is still $1K

Selling to yourself is legal and also I think in spirit, as long as you are realistic about fmv (that's the point of fmv).

"I sold the rear bench seat of my E36 to myself for a $500 recoup" is total BS while "I sold the Miata passenger seat to myself for $30 recoup" would be legit.

I also want to point out I don't think pimpm3 is trying to claim the used heads are fmv of $1600 or even $1000. He said new they cost $1600. But they might easily fmv somewhere in the hundreds.

Deal was agreed too.  I pick the car up Saturday.  Now I have to work out a FMV on the parts.

Details will follow in a build thread...

I’m doing this the hard way then....  I’m putting up ads, making trades, meeting people, delivering parts....  I should just sell it all to myself at FMV and take it to the dump as scrap.

That’s why I say it violates the spirit of the event.  You’ve just created a way to overspend and generate revenue for a project without actually doing anything.  

As this rule stands I can build a $2100 car drive it there throw my passenger seat, rear seat and stereo on the side of the autocross course and be 100% legal since I just sold them to myself for $100 in monopoly money.

This is starting to look a lot like the $10k + lemons cars I know of.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

I’m sorry you feel that way. 

Worry less about the money, and more about the editorial content. Win!

BTW, the old rules clearly forbid “selling” to yourself. ( When Per Schroeder was mostly writing the rules). But the consensus was that too many people complained the rules had gotten too complicated, and were discouraging participation. Had grown to several pages of rules. Around 2013 (?)

Per left, and the rules were completely revamped. Cut back to very minimal (and “selling” to yourself was again allowed, along with several other “loopholes” previous rules prohibited). 

Since 2015, rules have grown a lot. There are now more than when we started. Most of it is “safety oriented”, but a great deal of it was already included in the NHRA and SCCA safety rules. 

Thats the history. Bottom line- “selling” to yourself has been legal since about 2013. 

Anthony, on the record it’s legit.  Off the record I don’t like it and would prefer “sale” to mean i sold it for cash and not “i pulled it off the car because here’s a CL ad for one for $300 so that’s my FMV and I’m installing the one i got for $75”

however, i’m going to play by the rules whether i like them or not.  You still can’t realistically build a 10k challenge car, but you certainly can build a car worth that to someone else who isn’t able to fabricate or willing to put in the time.  I gather I could sell my datsun for around 10k to the right person, but my budget sheet says $2005.xx because that’s my actual cash investment minus a brake caliper and some pads that are exempt.  I have 200+ hours in the car, and that would be 10k+ in time if i were at work instead, or 20k at a shop.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Within spirit of the rules is "I'm going to pull these parts but want to use them post Challenge and low ball myself on FMV". Don't be a dick rule would be "I found a guy that's been asking $500 for a Miata passenger seat so mine must be worth that."

I totally get where you guys are coming from.  It just creates a grey area that can be abused in my opinion.  I’m just building a CAM T crap wagon at the end of the day anyway.  Wheels and tires are all set now, and may or may not last until the event but at least my hooptie won’t have bald leaky tires anymore.

I am not asking to sell the back seat for $500.   If I can clear up $300 of budget by not using $1600 worth of heads and $500 headers I am totally happy.  The last thing I want to do is something out side of the rules which is why I asked.

Can I make this work without selling these items? Probably, but I would be tight budget wise and both items are things I want for the car long term.

If I sold the items to a friend for $300 and bought them back for the same price in November I would be completely legal, but that seems like an unnecessary step and feels disingenuous.  As long as I am upfront and don't use some ludicrous FMV it is completly above board.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Ultimately everything budget wise is a grey area that can be abused. It’s governed entirely by nothing more than the honor system. 

We all recognize when someone has crossed the “don’t be a dick” boundary line. 

Don’t sweat it. 

In reply to pimpm3 :

I understand.  I’m just saying it opens the system up for abuse.  I have a set of upgrade brake calipers I could technically sell to myself and save too.  I’m just saving them as I am going to be way over on recoup anyway.  I have a lot of $0 recoup already.  I’m trying to get real people to buy things and trade them to me for my parts....  that’s hard but I’ve done it once.  I’m keeping track of all the zero dollar recoup out of fun and curiousity.

AnthonyGS said:

In reply to pimpm3 :

I understand.  I’m just saying it opens the system up for abuse.  I have a set of upgrade brake calipers I could technically sell to myself and save too.  I’m just saving then as I am going to be way over on recoup anyway.  I have a lot of $0 recoup already.  I’m trying to get real people to buy things and trade them to me for my parts....  that’s hard but I’ve done it once.  I’m keeping track of all the zero dollar recoup out of fun and curiousity.

Once you go you realize that maybe 1 person every couple years is trying to abuse a rule to their advantage.  It doesn’t happen very often and it’s usually corrected by the next event.  

AnthonyGS said:

As this rule stands I can build a $2100 car drive it there throw my passenger seat, rear seat and stereo on the side of the autocross course and be 100% legal since I just sold them to myself for $100 in monopoly money.

This is starting to look a lot like the $10k + lemons cars I know of.

You cant do that, Its my understanding no single part can be over 2K even if you recoup and the final value is under.

In reply to echoechoecho :

That’s not quite right. The initial purchase price of your car can not exceed $2000, but a parts car or parts deal does not have a limit. 

So you could theoretically have a $100 car, and a $2900 parts car (minus $1000 recoup).

In reply to pimpm3 :

I am assuming this is a set of LE2 heads, as I paid the $1600 to have mine ported. I have seen them selling for $600 to $800 a set on ls1tech so I think that is a real FMV for the heads, headers get something like 25% of retail at best unless they are Kooks. So if you want to sell them to yourself for the price of the heads then I think that is a fair price, as you can't buy them on the open market for that.

In reply to Fladiver64 :

Correct they are LE2 heads.  I will do more digging when I actually get the car in my posession.  Once I figure out what I need and don't need I will proceed from there.

eBay sold adds in the advanced search - estimated shipping cost or using the site car-part to locate junkyard prices in your area are the most legitimate ways to FMV to yourself. I don’t like dreamer Craigslist adds that I’d lowball and probably get used as FMV.