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Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/16/13 12:59 p.m.

So this is a customer car I’m starting on tonight. Just rolled off the rollback last night. It’s a 68 formula 400 firebird clone project. My customer was the body shop that did all the work, and then wound up with the car after it was partially reassembled. His entire goal is to get it put together enough to sell it, and let someone else finish it. To that end, were working on a strict budget. With me being me, I’ll do everything I can for the next owner, so he doesn’t have to redo anything, or worry about anything.

Car started life as a simple 350, auto, air, ps, pdb car. Was apparently painted a metallic blue at some point as I’m finding some remnants of the paint on uncleaned parts. It has been rotisserie soda blasted, straightened, and all metalwork completed. Doors were hung and adjusted, as well as deck lid. Underside soda blasted and bed lined. The previous owner took it back on the body dolly, and “reassembled” the car. The 400 was rebuilt from the block up with ram air heads and exhaust manifolds, edelbrock intake, Holley carb. Other than that, I don’t know what’s in it, but all the engine builder documentation is with the car, and other documentation totaling about 25k worth of receipts. Th400 was built, rear end rebuilt. All this was put back in the car, along with a fully rebuilt suspension and brake system. Somewhere in here, all work stopped on the car, and bill acquired it. After a brief examination, I’ll be double checking ALL work performed prior to his obtaining it. I just don’t want to put my stamp of approval on it until I know it’s right.

Supposedly, bill got all the parts to finish the car with it. So far, I’ve figured out were going to need a distributor and radiator, as I can’t seem to find them in the car. Also going with a full painless f-body harness.

Before I go any further, I figure id give some advice to others thinking about buying other peoples project cars for pennies on the dollar. It IS a good deal, based on a few variables.

  1. Assume nothing was done completely or properly. Especially torque specs on suspension, brakes, etc. the safety stuff.
  2. Make sure you buy a car with a large enthusiast following, large restoration documentation, or that you know very well. Boxes and bags and cans of parts that you didn’t take off, that you don’t know the condition of, and that you don’t know where they go are intimidating, motivation killing, and expensive things. I have never built an f-body, so I’m in this boat now.
  3. Assume that nothing but the car is worth keeping. Write off all the boxes of parts as useless junk. Most of it probably will be.
  4. (These are remembered from a car craft article in the 90’s) always buy paint and body you can live with. That’s the most expensive and time consuming part of a project car.
  5. Never buy a car you can’t hear run. Money demons flock to dry cylinders.

So, now that some history is out of the way, I'll outline the general plan for this car. It’s meant to be a resto-clone. The engine treatment already throws that out of the window pretty quickly, so were going resto-touring. No money that absolutely doesn’t have to be spent to do it right. It is, after all, a resale car. So we will be restoring the parts that are in the car, buying what we have to to make it run, steer, and stop. Pretty much we want to sell this car as a drivable project that needs the finishing touches. I’ll be making sure to do everything that I can for the next owner to make the finishing and tweaking much easier on them. Like sound deadening and insulating under the dash before putting it all back together. Probably won’t do the floors, so we can show off the perfect floor pans. I’ll be rebuilding the HVAC boxes, new radiator, alignment, etc. pretty much restoring what we have, buying what we have to, and tweaking it all to work better than it did from the factory. I want this to be a great driving, dependable, capable car. Don’t expect wildwoods, hotchkis, etc parts on it. Expect slight but meaningful modifications where it counts, and solid resto tech. expect LOTS of questions about “what is this, and were did it go?” expect cleaning original fasteners and re-finishing them before buying bolts. Expect aggressive alignment. Expect over engineering of electrical. Expect extreme attention to detail. These are the things that make a car more valuable, that just take time to put into them. Sure, it takes some money in supplies as well, but not as much a buying the resto parts would.

Anyway, onto the pictures. Remember, we pulled it out from under the cover where it has been sitting at the body shop for the last 6 months, put it on a rollback, and pushed it off at my shop. First step will be getting the cobwebs and body shop dust off, cleaning out the interior, and figuring out what I need, want, and what is the next guy’s expense. Step one will be cleaning and a good once over. Step two will be double checking all previous work. Step 3 will be everything that mounts to the firewall. Step 4 will be finishing the braking and steering systems. Step five will be getting it running.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/16/13 1:12 p.m.

I'll be following this one for sure. I love these, and that color RULES on the early cars.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/16/13 1:19 p.m.

I love that color!!!

Subscribed for sure.

dculberson
dculberson SuperDork
1/16/13 1:44 p.m.

I will third the "that's an awesome color" comments. Wish I was in the market for a car like this.

Woody
Woody GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/16/13 2:43 p.m.

The pictures didn't load immediately on my phone, but when I read "that color rules!", I knew what it would be.

tuna55
tuna55 UberDork
1/16/13 2:51 p.m.

Love this!

bravenrace
bravenrace PowerDork
1/16/13 3:47 p.m.

Nice car. Not to nit pick, but technically that's a Firebird 400. The Formula 400 didn't come out until 1970.

SEADave
SEADave New Reader
1/16/13 5:54 p.m.

I love it and will definately be following this one.

One thing I don't get - if you do awesome stuff like this for work, what do you daydream about while you are working?

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/16/13 7:43 p.m.
bravenrace wrote: Nice car. Not to nit pick, but technically that's a Firebird 400. The Formula 400 didn't come out until 1970.

ok. did not know that. thats what i was told. im personally a mopar guy, and have managed to stay away from f-bodies my entire life. now that im playing with one in my shop, i kind of like the proportions. well wait till i drive it and see if theres one in my future or not.

are you a pontiac guru/enthusiast/knowledgeble guy to answer questions when i start reassembly?

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/16/13 7:45 p.m.
SEADave wrote: I love it and will definately be following this one. One thing I don't get - if you do awesome stuff like this for work, what do you daydream about while you are working?

my day job is a mental health clinician. this stuff is my second job.

daydreams? sailing, having time and money to autocross/track more, getting my own stuff where i want it, being a competitive driver.....

i love my jobs. wouldnt trade them for the world. and my second job, i dont consider myself a mechanic. im "that guy". do some neat stuff, do some odd stuff....

The_Jed
The_Jed Dork
1/16/13 8:29 p.m.

GIGGITY!!

fasted58
fasted58 UberDork
1/16/13 11:30 p.m.

great project, love that color

coulda had a '68 Goat w/ that color and vinyl roof

still kicking myself over that

bravenrace
bravenrace PowerDork
1/17/13 5:45 a.m.
Dusterbd13 wrote:
bravenrace wrote: Nice car. Not to nit pick, but technically that's a Firebird 400. The Formula 400 didn't come out until 1970.
ok. did not know that. thats what i was told. im personally a mopar guy, and have managed to stay away from f-bodies my entire life. now that im playing with one in my shop, i kind of like the proportions. well wait till i drive it and see if theres one in my future or not. are you a pontiac guru/enthusiast/knowledgeble guy to answer questions when i start reassembly?

I've owned and rebuilt a few second gens, owned a '68 Camaro, and was a pro wrench in a time period where I worked on some of them, but I wouldn't say I'm a guru or anything. But feel free to ask any questions that might come up. Worst thing that can happen is I don't know the answer! Good luck with it!

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/17/13 8:39 a.m.
bravenrace wrote:
Dusterbd13 wrote:
bravenrace wrote: Nice car. Not to nit pick, but technically that's a Firebird 400. The Formula 400 didn't come out until 1970.
ok. did not know that. thats what i was told. im personally a mopar guy, and have managed to stay away from f-bodies my entire life. now that im playing with one in my shop, i kind of like the proportions. well wait till i drive it and see if theres one in my future or not. are you a pontiac guru/enthusiast/knowledgeble guy to answer questions when i start reassembly?
I've owned and rebuilt a few second gens, owned a '68 Camaro, and was a pro wrench in a time period where I worked on some of them, but I wouldn't say I'm a guru or anything. But feel free to ask any questions that might come up. Worst thing that can happen is I don't know the answer! Good luck with it!

thanks. will do.

tonight, ill finish getting the shop cleaned up, and my magic bolt bins organised. i WILL need them. started digging through the top layer of crap in the car last night. im going to need more space....

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/17/13 8:30 p.m.

ok, working on the basket case tonight, i discovered that the entire booster/master assembly was gone. no brackets. i did find the brake pedal, though....

car has the single piston calipers up front, prop valve n the frame, and all the lines with it. drums in the rear. dont need anything facy, pretty much a resto car.

im finding 9 inch and 11 inch options for this car, as well as a BUNCH of price points. what were looking for is one that will work, be inexpensive, and be quality. we have no core, and i dont care about having to do a little tweaking to make things work.

what cars interchange? anything up into the 80's/90's? any good deals you know of? what should i e using?

i have no idea what kind of manifold vacuum ill be running yet, as i dont know how radical the engine is. im not expecting too much based on the performer, 6x heads, and cast iron exhaust manifolds. so i "should" have at least 12-15 inched of idle vacuum.

so, what say you f-body guys? (im a mopar guy, new to f-bodies)

michael

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/18/13 9:13 a.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13:

i would bet that it's the same as any '68 - '77 GM A-body -- chevelle, cutlass, etc.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/18/13 8:40 p.m.

So, been busy the last few days. got the car cleaned out, and cleaned up. started going the te boxes, and making lists, as well as ordering parts. also got the whole firewall stripped down except for the wiper motor, and the car up on stands.

im glad im going through all the previous work. steering column not tight at box, leaves not tight, all lines misrouted (judging by appearance. anyone have a good undercar pic of stock?) and not clamped, fuel tank loose, etc. kind if amazing, really. either this guy was a genius, not tightening anything he THOUGHT would have to come back out, or an absolte hack. judging by the quality of the stuff thats been done, though, i may have to go with the former. some really nice parts have surfaced in digging. new window fuzzies new emblems new switches new parking brake assembly resto nut&bolt package all the HVAC parts (i think) lots of stainless the rest of the brake lines other two center caps for the rallyes paint and supplies

the stuff that was trashed or missing that i have ordered in the last couple of days: aluminum 3 core radiator power brake booster/master/prop valve (ignore about prop valve on frame. that was me not looking good enough to notice that he had safety wired all the brake lines to the shifter linkage) shocks 3 gauge panel (oil, water, volts) pitman arm HEI distributor painless f-body wiring harness

this is gouing to be a super nice car for somebody to finish. im shocked at how well it cleaned up.

so, tomorrow im running to pull-a-part to see what kind of steering wheel i can find, as well as grab some window crank handles and stuff for my other projects. then, by the time i get hhome, the car should have finished drying so i can start to insulate the firewall, add sound deadening, and assemble the HVAC stuff.

other things i know ill need that this car doesnt have: if youve got em, PM me.

  1. gas pedal assembly
  2. headliner bows
  3. taillights
  4. headlight switch knob
  5. radiator shoud
  6. front fenders and bumper/grilles
  7. front lights (turn signals and side markers)
  8. hood hinges

i knnow most of this stuff is availible repop from NPD, etc, but id rather buy it for less and restore it than spend more money. and most guys understand that completely. im also convinced, after dealing with repop mopar parts, that mose 40+ year old stuff is much better made and higher quality once restred than the new reproductions.

michael

tuna55
tuna55 UberDork
1/18/13 10:38 p.m.

That looks amazing. You're going to have fun assembling that, I am eagerly awaiting the rumble.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/22/13 9:03 p.m.

alright, time for an update. parts are starting to roll in, and im starting to get my head wrapped around this build pretty tightly.

what i discovered is that of all the parts in the car, most of them were trim or nuts/bolts/junk. pretty much got not much to work with here. so were going to work with it anyway, just a little more creatively.

first, list of parts ordered (that arrived) and why: painless f-body harness i orderd this for two main reasons. a, it was cheaper than repop. b, i love painless products, and like to overengineer all electrical systems. i enjoy wiring (which is how i met bill, wiring his 50 new yorker convert with a 500 cube 6 pack mopar in it) and want this car to be flexible enough in that department to go any way the next guy wants it to. ill even leave him a list of the unused leads, and where i tucked them so he has them handy. this kit is different than what im used to from painless. the bulkhead/fuse panel is a very nice touch. i really like it. also, some of the wires are pre-terminated for me. which is time and aggrevation saving in concept. well see how that works in reality. also, it includes some f-body specific wiring diagrams. also a nice touch for those that dont have the FSM on the workbench.

up next is the new radiator. im taking an ebay crapshoot here. found a listing for a three core, all aluminum radiator with trans cooler built in for a cant pass it up price. ive used the same comapny for a radiator for my neon. the neon had some slight fitment issues, but we worked it out. im not happy with the finish on this one, but the pan is to make sure it doesnt leak when we fire the car (straight distilled water), pull it back out, clean it, shoot it in black, and reinstall. this has been the plan from the start, as an aluminum radiator tends to stick out like a sore thumb on these kinds of reto-ish cars. i mocked it up after pulling it out of the box, and have it a slight proplem. the core support with the car has two threaded lugs on the passengers side the line up with the radiator perfectly. on the drivers side, however, theres a pair of roughly 1/2 inch holes where the bolts would go through. i mocked it up with bolts/nuts/washers, but know this is nbot how pontiac would have done it. any ideas?

up next is shocks. i will justify my purchase first. the reason i went with sensa tracks is price/performance ratio. ive found that, in general, cars on 14 inch tires with stock spring rates and stock suspensions tend to handle BETTER with the sensa tracks than with a more performance oriented shock. the more performance oriented, like bilstein, kyb, koni, etc, tend to have valving thats too aggressive for the stock spring rates aned 14 inch tire capabilities. monroe, with the sensatrack line, seems to have hit the valving pretty close for what a musclecar era suspension on musclecar size tires is capable of. the other reason is that monroe is very good about throwing ALL the hardware in the box. case in pont, the rears came with the whole bolt/spacer/nut/lockwasher assembly in the box. black oxide coated. got the rears ut up in tonight, and still have to tighten the drivers side as that side is currently sitting higher than the passengers side. couldnt compress it with just me, so ill have to wait until all the weight is back on the tires.

next is the three gauge kit. i ordered the summit 2 1/16th for two reasons: price, and appearance. the font and coloring is close enough to the stock pontiac that it will blend in pretty good. 35 bucks was a good price as well. all folks seem to have their own preferance for gauge style and brand, so we didnt see the point of bucking up fpr ultralights. personally, i have NEVER kept a set f gauges that came with a toy car. ive always changed them for something different. the sumit gauges i have used in the past have prven accurate and reliable. never had any trouble, and the insides are identical to sunpro gauges. so my bet s thats who makes them for summit. im probably going to mount these in teh center stack where its been cut for a DIN sized radio, but the metal dash structure hadnt been. make soem nice angled spacers towards the driver, and make it neat looking.

next os the pitman arm i ordered from summit. nice that it already came black. customer service guy told me that the had a listing for a 400 pontiac specific pitman arm, so thats the one i got.

steering wheel: picked one up from an 80s s10 blazer. had the best styling of any 10 dollar steering wheel i could find. again, one of those personal preference things. i tweaked the firebird horn button i found in a box to fit it, and will be refinishing the spokes. may also drill them a bit for style, just to make it look nifty. the next guy will probably ditch it when he finishes the interior off to his tastes, si\o im not goiung to put too much effort into it. unless i get bored. or put it in my truck....

i did spend a while on my back tonght at the back of the car. got almost all the fasteners checked and torqued except for the leaf springs. then moved onto the front/rear stainless brake line. this thing fit horribly when i first started. unknown who made it, or how much the last guy messed with it. so i cant comment on initial quality. but after an hour of bending, tweaking, test fitting, etc, i added two clips and put it home. afteer:

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/25/13 10:20 p.m.

So, its cold. and weve got everything covered in ice right now.

also, ths week, i had a hose rupture and flood my shop. coming home from the day job to 3 inches of standing water at the back of my shop did NOT make me a happy man. but at least i didnt cuss or throw nothing. and now my floor is good and clean.

got some quality time in on the car tonight. some pics are with the good camera. when it died, i switched to the cell phone. when IT died, i gave up on pictures.

started tonight with toghtening/torque spec'ing the rear suspension. checked inside the drums, all new. fresh fluid by apearance in the rear end. then, moved on to put the front end together. first fighet was with the shocks, and i gave up after that. they hit the coil springs. upon looking at the setup, it appears to me that the car has the wrong springs. they do not fit the pockets well, or fill the pockets. there are also an obscene number of coils. what is the proper diameter of coil spring for these? my guess would be 5.5. is that rtight?

after that, i spent a while on the fuel lines. has a 3/8 feed and 1/4 return. again, unknnown manufacturer, and not that reat a fit. but i wourked with what i had. im not thrilled about how it turned out, but.... (no pics. forgot till after the camera died)

i then went on to working on the firewall. this car is getting the firewall, cowl, inside of dash structure, and toe boards sound deadend and insulated. (obviously not insulating the dashboard). this is by FAR the hardest thing for the next guy to have to do, so im taking care of it for him. i typically use a few different products, depending on area and build. for this car, as i didnt take it apart and dont know what kind of clearances/tolerances im working with, i used asphalt deadener, and the foil backed bubble wrap from lowes. ould typically prefer foil backed high density juste, but wasnt sure and didnt want to casuse problems for myself. link to the deadener: http://www.mcmaster.com/#sound-and-vibration-damping-sheets/=l73xci

i cut it to general size, press it to the sheetmetal, and then start to work it with a j-roller and heat gun. when heating, make sure to heat it to the point where it starts to sag/conform fue to gravity. this is when its prime for adhesion and molding. i work it in the best i can like that, and then start to put the fasteners, etc in the holes. easiest on a firewall to either leave them in, or poke an awl through from the other side. this car, im doing the awl, as i have no idea what goes where yet. i also will put a slit with a razor kife wherever thers a sharp coontour change or opening at this point. i then rework it with the heat gun and j-roller. now, as a sde point to remember: doing 80% of the surface wity get you 90% of the bbenifits. after this, its diminishing returns. so thats why im bnot too concerned about slight gaps in the deadener. this is where your at by the end of step 2. this car, with a welded solid dash that is sheetmetal, i did the top and vertical fromt surfaces of the dash as well. went form tinny/rattly sounding to nice sold thing anywhere on the dash or firewall. reasaon i do this, is i like a nice solid feeling and solid sounding car. woth no drafts or rattles. so this is always uder whatever is getting bolted to the structure of the car, thereby making those jointrs less prone to squeaks/rattles. just makes for a more quality feeling car.

after this, i then applied the foil. this is where i stopped for the night on foil, as the fumes were getting to me. i did not want to open the doors, as its 19 outside and only 38 in the shop.

i proceeded to bolt up some firewall parts that i did not want to trap the nsu;ation on the drivers side, again, being concerned about tolerances and fitment. when i went to install the repop e-brake assembly that came with the car, i found how different from the origonal it was. to the point that it would not fit without a significant rework.

so i cleaned up the origonal, added some fresh greasy, and put it back in. ill have to pull it out again, as i dod not put the firwall insulation (factory jute and rubber stuff) un yet, and that goes under the park brake assembly. i also restored, relubed, and reinstalled the brake pedal.

leastly, i test fit the new booster/master/prop valve assembly. kinda dissapointed by it. they used no flat washers inder the lock washers anywhere, and teh master itself looks pretty rough. so ill be pulling it apart to check things, te\weak things, and paint the master.

thats all for now. tomorrow ill be helping my wife get ready for my daughters birthday party sunday, and hopefully finishing the 59 caddy if the weather cooperates.

tuna55
tuna55 UberDork
1/25/13 10:36 p.m.

Original GM parts are always going to be better if you can find them for that brake assembly. Good choice on the pedal box.

I needed to replace the starter on the truck because I was swapping in a different transmission necessitating a different mount. So, I bought an Auto o' advancezone cheapie. Then I took it apart, stole the nosecone off of it, put the nosecone off of my Delco 40 year old starter on it and returned it to them as the core. After going through four starters of various brand/price on one vehicle in the past, I learned my lesson. The curse of cheap GM parts is that everyone thinks they can make them, and as bad as some of the quality was on some GM cars of that era, they were pretty good in a lot of ways.

That was a long story. In essence, if you can perhaps find and recondition a master/booster from a JY it may be a better idea - not sure. It looks like the PO liked shiny things, though, and that's usually a bad sign.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/25/13 10:46 p.m.

agreed on the origonal parts being better in most ways. thats my preference, when availible,.

on this car, im actually on a pretty tight timetable, so im having to do some things that i wouldnt if it were mine. personally, i would have gone hydraboost myself, along with 4 wheel discs. but its not mine, so..... the customer is always right.

heres to hoping he is this time. well see what i think when i get it all se\orted out.

and about the po: thats the only explanation. he tossed/sold anything that he found in a catalog as being reproduced. thats the ONLY explanation i can come up with for the missing parts. cause everything thats missing is availible repop.

michael

Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/26/13 2:12 p.m.

With the rest of the car rather stock, the upgrade to the 400 may actually improve the value as it's looks properly done. Like the wiring upgrade and sound/heat pad work!

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/26/13 4:59 p.m.

Looks great, but man that steering wheel must drag down the value. The right wheel makes or breaks a sale on a car like this. Get the real one or at least put in a half-way decent aftermarket one.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 HalfDork
1/26/13 9:28 p.m.

id typically agree. but unfortunately, my customer doesnt. his logic was that steering wheel is a personal preference and taste item, and what we like may not be what the next guy likes. so therefore, the return on investment is not there. i kinda agree with that logic. this steering wheel may end up in my truck though. ill scrounge around for something different if it does. the one in my truck has teh foam coming loose from the rim.

tomorrow, after my daughters birthday party, ill hopeffully be finishing the firewall, and starting to really get moving on this thing. ive already got the ext one lined up: 50 chrysler new yourker, 500 cube big block, 6 pack, covertable. giggity.

michael

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