95 Thunderbird v8 Coupe bound for Lemons glory. Or not.

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Just to expand on the steering, what do you see that is dangerous? I have some critiques of my own, but would like any fresh eyes that see something I can address brought to light. I see one tiny bit of column that is collapsible by the firewall junction, and I'm not quite certain it's enough. There are a number of u-joints from there to the wheel. The thing that I saw as a little dangerous was maybe the bracket it's all bolted to? Looks like a spear for someones chest. It's beefy too, so I doubt there would be any give in a collision.

The spare wheels are I think universals, not necessarily re-drilled if that's what you are referring to. Either way I don't think they will be used in racing format. I'll probably try to get a few bucks out of them. The wheel pattern on this is funky if I remember correctly so it's probably going to be tough to find a spare set that meets our needs.

Also does anyone know if the underdrive pulley on the water pump could lead to inefficient cooling in an endurance environment?

Quick update on parts googles.

Shift kit is a TransGo AODE/4R70W-HD2

Jet Chip 79511

ADDCO 666UBC rear sway bar which is 1 3/8"

JBA 1626s headers

I'm about to go put the car in the air to look at spring rates that are on it. I've got spare Eibachs that came with the car in sizes 0950.550.0850 - 1100.500.0900 - 0950.500.1100 - 1300.500.0600 and a random different color red spring that has no rate printed on it.

Couple things that stand out to me:

Man, I really don't like the way that core support is cut. Looks as if that's going to take out quite a bit of strength in a front-end impact?

The cruise control cable is still there, so there's a couple ounces of weight savings. Might be worth seeing if any of the rest of that system is still present as well. I want to say the bulk of the system is inside the driver's side front fender, but I'm not positive anymore.

All of these cars came with a rear seat brace of some kind. It's supposed to add some chassis stiffening, so I'd try to one at the junkyard. There are two styles: Cars with fold-down rear seats got a pair of J-shaped braces that go on the sides  of the rear seat opening:

Cars with non-folding rear seats got a v-shaped brace that's about two pounds lighter:

Of course, a cage may make it unnecessary.

The air intake is indeed a bit messy. The factory piece is called the "violin case" and I can't say for a fact it's a restriction, but it sure looks as if it is. People have made a cheap intake tube for some late 90s-early 2000s Civic work. Not sure which one, but it should have about a 45 degree bend in it.

What's with the wood bolted to the passenger door?

Looks like a great start. 
 

you're going to both need and want to put a stock front bumper crash structure back in the car.  Keeping all the OEM crash structure is needed per the Lemons rules, plus it is a smart thing to do as endurance racing has a significantly higher (but still low) chance of crashing than AutoX.   
 

For brakes, call Porterfield and ask them for a compound recommendation.  We love the ST43 but our cars are lighter, I think the ST47 is good for heavier cars.  Many, including us, had years of struggles with Carbotech pads leaving uneven transfer layer very quickly and not lasting all that long, all of those are regularly solved when you go to another brand.  
 

For the steering, the lack of a collapsible column is concerning, you don't want a spear at your chest in a crash.  Are there more universal joints further down the line to give it a chance to collapse?  
 

I think you are going to need a better seat.  The headrest on that one is weak and won't actually protect you.  

In reply to captainawesome :

One trick I used building the roll cage for my XJS is getting the welds on the top of the cage is really impossible.
My technique is to drop a semi finished cage down enough to weld all around the top. 
What I did was bend the mounting plates for the down leg of the rollcage to fit but don't weld them in place yet.  Mark where the down legs wind up. Using a slightly larger  than the down leg hole saw,  drill those spots out. Now slide the mounting plates underneath the down tubes. But don't weld the mounting plate yet. 
Go ahead fit and tack everything solidly together.  Then slide  the mounting plates from under the down tubes.  
The roll cage will drop down through the hole from the hole saw 5-6 inches. Enough to complete the welds on top of the tubes.
Shove the cage back up to the roof and using a strap to temporarily hold the cage up over the hole while you weld a patch back into the hole in the flooring.

Next  remove the strap,  slide in the mounting plate.  weld the down tube to the mounting plate. Then go ahead and weld the plate to the floor. 
 

I used that technique even with a rotisserie. It made the welds on top of the tubes as safe as the rest of the welds. Only added a few minutes and with easy access. 
 

Others just cut the roof off and weld it back on when the cage is done. 

Sonic said:

 

I think you are going to need a better seat.  The headrest on that one is weak and won't actually protect you.  

The seat looks to be the same seat we use so it "should" pass. We run a fairly substantial back brace and have never had it questioned. 

captainawesome said:

So since the car isn't being purchased for $500 how does that work? Can I "sell" parts off the car to recoop like you would a GRM Challenge car?

Is it like Champ-car  racing where certain cars are allowed regardless what was paid for them. Older the car the more you can upgrade. ? 
Chump car started out with the $500 rule and eliminated it. 
 

In reply to captainawesome :

If you wait until the diff fluid is really warm you can use a fuel pump like a Holley fuel pump for carburetors. ( do not turn it on until hot or yes the fuel pump will overheat and blow the fuse.) Drill and tap the drain plug to put a fuel barb on. Run  it to someplace in the air stream  and put it back into a hole you drill and tap into the fill plug.  Just be careful enough to add extra fluid for the lines and cooler. 
you can fill it up via the fill plug and then pump it into the hose going into the cooler. When it starts overflowing the bottom of the filler plug you're full. 

We used that trick racing  Jaguar XKE with inboard disk brakes. 

We ran Raybestos ST43 brake pads on our 3000 lb Taurus SHO with great success. Before that we ran Porterfield R4E which were pretty good too.

Agreed that the front crash structure will likely need to be retunred to stock, and also the steering column maybe.

In reply to Sonic :

We are now actively looking for a factory crash beam, so thanks for the heads up.

The seat is probably going to stay, but with a proper head brace. We are planning to set up sliders, so the neck brace will be adjustable but able to safely lock in place.

There are quite a few u-joints down below the column. I snapped a couple pics to better show what we are working with. From the firewall there is a D or and 0 collapsible shank that goes to a u-joint, from that joint a short shaft to another u-joint that then connects the steering quickener.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

In reply to Will :

We are going to bolt in a core support replacement of some sort. Probably just some angle iron bolted in place, something simple.

The wood on the passenger door is a handle the PO put together for the passenger to hold on to. It's probably not going to stay, but at the same time I kinda want to keep it in place for nostalgia.

In reply to frenchyd :

I was considering the same approach. Once I get the pre-bent cage in and ready to fit I'll know where to holesaw and drop through the floor for full welds.

Don't know Champ Car rules, but for now we are trying to stay legal for all similar sanctioned racing. Right now we are starting with a $500 car and $400 worth of parts.

As for diff cooling we are going to monitor temps our first race and see if it's going to be a problem. We are hoping to do mostly simple prep work to get reliability in check, and see where the deficiencies are.

In reply to collinskl1 :

I'm seeing a few similar suggestions, so we may pivot on which pads to select.

captainawesome said:

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Just to expand on the steering, what do you see that is dangerous? I have some critiques of my own, but would like any fresh eyes that see something I can address brought to light. I see one tiny bit of column that is collapsible by the firewall junction, and I'm not quite certain it's enough. There are a number of u-joints from there to the wheel. The thing that I saw as a little dangerous was maybe the bracket it's all bolted to? Looks like a spear for someones chest. It's beefy too, so I doubt there would be any give in a collision.

The spare wheels are I think universals, not necessarily re-drilled if that's what you are referring to. Either way I don't think they will be used in racing format. I'll probably try to get a few bucks out of them. The wheel pattern on this is funky if I remember correctly so it's probably going to be tough to find a spare set that meets our needs.

The "chest spear" look is what prompted my comment. 

Regarding the wheel bolt pattern: It's 5x108 (4.25), shared with he Taurus, Lincoln LS/S-type Jag, some Volvos, even certain Ferraris, but it's definitely not as common as the 5x4.5/5x114.3 used on the Mustang. I have a set of 17x8 Voxx Misanos in that pattern I'm willing to sell if you're interested (as seen here):

If you want a better wheel selection, all you need to do in front is replace the front hubs and rotors with 99-04 Mustang parts. They'll even work with the stock caliper if you don't want to swap in the Mustang calipers.

It's a little more work in back. 99-01 Mustang hubs will press into the stock T-Bird wheel bearings. But the rotors are something of a problem: you can re-drill stock T-Bird rotors o 5x4.5, but I think you may have to open up the hub bore as well. Can't remember. The alternative is using a bracket to relocate the stock caliper for use with Cobra rotors.

In reply to OHSCrifle :

Yeah I think I'm going to get an off the shelf column bracket that I can weld to tubing that could be bolted in place.

Something like this:

Ebay bracket

steering bracket by hatchethairy, on Flickr

In reply to Will :

Depending on shipping we may be able to work out a deal. As of right now a spare set of wheels is way down the line with costs for cage and safety equipment taking up spare fundage. I'll reach out to you if we get ready to look for a set though.

Looks like we are within the proper rules for Lemons for the steering column. I still plan to change out the existing "spear" of sorts with the bracket type mentioned above.

3.K.3 Collapsible Safety-Type Steering Columns. All steering columns must have a collapsing safety collar, dual-offset U-joints, or similar anti-spear safety feature. (These features were standard on production cars sold in the US from MY ’68 on; earlier vehicles, foreign-market vehicles, and non-OE systems or mounting may require modifications to meet this rule.)

For now we don't plan to remove the door glass, but in order to do so we need to have some sort of door panel. Any ideas on a lightweight material we could use?

Aluminum sheet.  Carbon fiber.  Coroplast?  Or, don't worry about it as I've never seen anyone fail for that one.  It is also usually pretty easy to remove the windows from the tracks, especially once you've done it a few times.  

In reply to Sonic :

I can probably score some coroplast for free dollars. I'd just hate to show up and not pass tech. We haven't removed any door structure, but the panels are long gone. The team has decided that for now we'd rather not pull all the window stuff just in case it has to live outdoors for a month or two from time to time.

Lowes sells lightweight plastic panels for drop ceilings. Stronger than coroplast but not much heavier. 

Gathering parts and fluids to catch up on maintenance this week. I am waiting on one more shipment that should be here today. Rotors, cheap semi-metallic pads for now, oil/filter, fuel filter, air filter, plugs, plug wires, diff fluid, serp belt, oil drain plug, and rbf600 fluid.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

A team mate stopped by a local JY and snatched up rear corner tails, front crash beam pad, air box and tubing (wrong year though). He says the crash beam structure is welded on. Damn. I and another team mate will be stopping by another JY tomorrow morning, and hopefully it will have a good beam I can cut out or drill. Technically there's a no cutting rule, so not sure how I will make that work. Also going to try to find a AC condenser for a trans cooler, windshield wiper assembly, and whatever else we may stumble into for spares.

Unfortunately two of our team members are in Springfield and supposedly Missouri is shutting down borders. We won't be able to get the parts he picked up for a little bit, but luckily they aren't vital to forward motion on the project. The tails would have been nice as I'd like to do some street/highway driving legally and see what high speeds will do to the gutted hood. I'll probably set up some LED trailer lights for now.

92411124_895558647551533_4013704735486902272_n by hatchethairy, on Flickr

92411189_224991228739100_4855570161463197696_n by hatchethairy, on Flickr

92464988_240191760504825_5055333608705753088_n by hatchethairy, on Flickr

I also took a good look at my E21 Recaro seat sliders. One side is taller than the other by design. Since I have multiple pairs I can either use two taller ones or two shorter ones depending on packaging. I sketched up kinda how I would use the shorter ones, but I think the concept would be similar for the taller set as well. I've decided to hold off until the cage is in before messing with it though. No sense setting it up until I can make sure head clearance meets the rules. Or I could pick up some $80 universal brackets and call it a day.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

For seat sliders, look for ones from a Jeep TJ Wrangler.  They look basically identical to the ones that Sparco sells, but at much cheaper from a junkyard.  Last one I got was $40 shipped.  They are less than 1" tall, double locking, have lots of mounting bolts, even side to side, and passed OEM crash tests.   

Friday afternoon I scoped the Tbird in my local junkyard. I was curious to see if spending my Saturday morning there was worthwhile. It twas.

At the crack of 8 am I was through the doors and trying to beat the rain. I managed to scavenge all of the windshield wiper assembly parts needed as well as some nicer rear corner tail lights. I also snatched up some of the sub-harnesses for the rear lights in hopes to convert what are normally turn signals into brake lights.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

When I got back to the house a team mate joined our deferred maintenance extravaganza. We tinkered with the rear lights a bit, found some chewed up wires, a bad brake switch, and decided our time was better spent elsewhere.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

While I started changing the serp belt and pulling plugs/wires, he started working on the brakes. Originally the plug wires were running under the alternator, but for future track side repairs I decided to route them over, and later worry about a possible bracket to keep them out of harms way.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Upon realizing the rear calipers require a tool I do not own, he started changing the oil, and I pounded pavement to pick up the tool. Of course the filter didn't want to come out. It's in an awkward spot and the subframe is mostly in the way. After what was probably an hour with some oil filter vice grips and a handful of screwdriver holes it was liberated from it's little factory Ford cubby hole. We collectively got the caliper sliders greased with some high temp silicone stuff, pads installed, and started to bleed. The reservoir was filled with what looked like motor oil. I suctioned what I could out of the reservoir and we pushed a bottle of cheap DOT 4 through. We followed that up with a fresh bottle of Motul RBF 600.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

Diff fluid change was on the docket, but it looked awesome so we aborted that idea and left it alone. Future plan is to put some fresh Motul in there before our first Lemons.

Trans fluid looked great on the dipstick and smelled like it should. We will probably swap that fluid out when we add cooler to the system.

With all that wrapped up, it was time for a test drive.

The idle is so much better now, which I suspect to be from spark plugs. We took it for a little longer stretch of it's legs, but without functional brake lights we can't really go far. I'm trying to stay in the local constabulary's good grace. The upshift from 1st to 2nd is pretty aggressive with some good tire chirp slidey action, and the upshift into third seems a little delayed. More seat time is needed to find out how the car wants to be treated. It's no rocket ship, but it's perfect for our intentions. I think we bought well. Really really well.

Current plan is to focus on meeting road legal requirements so we can do some highway pulls and test handling. I ordered a wiper switch, which also happens to control turn signals and hazards. I need to find some good wiring diagrams to confirm, but I believe that switch missing is causing our current brake light mystery woes. If that doesn't end up being our "easy button" then we have a plan B.

Fuel filter needs changed still, but after looking at the rubber hoses that connect the fuel rails from bank to bank I decided to hold off. I don't know if those hoses can just be swapped out for fresh stuff or what, so I'll do the filter at the same time.

Untitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr

captainawesome said:

In reply to Will :

Good to know on the fans. I've seen in other make/model cars where a larger radiator doesn't necessarily equate to lower temps and often times a better fan can make all the difference. I'm all for changing the rad if needed, but if a better fan does enough I'd go that direction.

Unless the stock calipers are in terrible shape we will probably just stick with those. Saves money and Carbotech has the RP2 pads available for the stock system. Those pads seem to be the hotness for endurance in larger cars from what I'm reading. If the brake lines aren't stainless we will probably switch those out when we flush fresh with Motul 600 or 660.

Manual swap would be a year or two out as long as this trans doesn't crap out on us before hand. I know it would be nice to have, but from what I'm gathering it's not going to put us on podium. Our focus will be on reliability, turning consistent laps, and most of all spend less time in the pits.

I'll check into what kit he installed.

Airflow through the radiator shouldn't be dependent on a fan for a racecar.  Once you are moving, the fan doesn't do anything and can actually become a hindrance.

We have been racing lemons and champcar without a fan for about 5 years.  Cooling is better without it.

Proper ducting is key.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

As in ZERO fan? I definitely want to work our way into some proper air ducting that forces it through the rad, but with it possibly doing autocross as well I'm not ready to kick it to the curb. What I do want to setup is a proper temp switch so it's only on when the system needs it.