I have a business and I target people with money. I have no interest in working for people who are all about the lowest price.That I suspect is what the op is doing. And with that in mind this is the wrong forum to look for feedback . This place caters to those of us who use our limited disposable cash to play with toys. Most of us are pretty good at making do with less than state of the art equipment and we are not the target market.
4cylndrfury wrote: I have a thread floating around where I cast a MAF adapter out of aluminum to bolt a cone style aftermarket filter to my DD's intake.
I saw that, and the adapter looked awesome. I posted there.....originally asking if you'd be willing to cast a hood ornament or door pulls. Then I edited the post when I decided that I should learn myself. Do you have any links/tips for trying it?
I've done lost wax casting of small stuff - rings and pendents - in the past.
JoeyM wrote:4cylndrfury wrote: I have a thread floating around where I cast a MAF adapter out of aluminum to bolt a cone style aftermarket filter to my DD's intake.I saw that, and the adapter looked awesome. I posted there.....originally asking if you'd be willing to cast a hood ornament or door pulls. Then I edited the post when I decided that I should learn myself. Do you have any links/tips for trying it? I've done lost wax casting of small stuff - rings and pendents - in the past.
Quite literally, everything I learned about casting came from http://backyardmetalcasting.com, and that sites spin off forum http://alloyavenue.com/vb/forum.php
Ive never tried lost wax myself, but have done "lost foam" - a similar process, carving a pattern from extruded/expanded polystyrene foam, investing it in drywall mud, and pouring molten aluminum directly into the foam - the foam vaporizes when the molten metal contacts it, no need to burn-out the foam like you would with an invested wax piece. You might do well with something like that since you likely dont have access to a burn out oven needed for traditional lost wax casting (or maybe you do, I dunno lol).
But, mostly, I just tried stuff, learning as I go. I made a little hunk of a furnace from plain old quickrete from a bag, and used charcoal and a leaf blower in my early work. I melted in a stainless steel camping pot as a crucible. You can make molding sand from bentonite clay (available at feed stores in bulk, or some kitty litters at a higher per unit cost) and play sand from the big box store - this sand will produce a rougher surface finish, but is cheap and decent for learning.
It will take some time before your equipment is the part of the procedure holding you back. Kind of like a Miata. Its not much, but for a 16yo just getting started driving, it will be a loooong time before the Miata itself is holding you back as a driver.
Sorry for the off topic post....
Thanks. I may take a stab at it. I'll probably get the car running, though, before worring about niceties like a hood ornament, but it would be fun to be able to say that I had cast it myself.
RWR wrote: The shop will be extensive and include CAD software, welding gear, CNC and manual machining stations, WaterJet for cutting anything, sandblasting and powder-coating stations, woodworking etc. Access granted for $125month membership dues. Rob
This all sounds fab related... anything reverse engineering? Access to a FARO arm and/or 3d scanner is what would draw me in. Existing geometry is critical when making parts to fit an existing component/vehicle. Once I have that stuff, designing it in CAD and having the part manufactured is cake :)
As far as CAD software, if nothing you create is for-profit, you may be able to get educational versions of Solid Edge or Solid Works quite easily.
bearmtnmartin wrote: I have a business and I target people with money. I have no interest in working for people who are all about the lowest price.That I suspect is what the op is doing. And with that in mind this is the wrong forum to look for feedback . This place caters to those of us who use our limited disposable cash to play with toys. Most of us are pretty good at making do with less than state of the art equipment and we are not the target market.
Alright, let's take the point of rich car builders.
People with money are not interested in DIY. For rich people, building a house is hiring a general contractor, and an architect and loosely overseeing the project. Same thing for a car. They commission a big shop like Rad Rides or something to built them their ideal hot rod. They don't have the time to start making a little bracket, or something like that.
You want to get more involved? The next level is to assemble a fancy kit like an FFR or something. This requires almost no fabrication (nothing that requires CNC equipment that's for sure). You already have a helpline from Factory Five and you can give the part you don't like to a subcontractor.
You are into car modifications? There are companies offering parts for any car if you look hard enough. You just need money.
The only reason to make your own part by yourself is to save money.
Even if you really are into hardcore DIY stuff. If you have money, you'll simply buy yourself the tools you need, because in the long run, it's a better investment. Like the difference between buying and renting.
fanfoy wrote: The only reason to make your own part by yourself is to save money. Even if you really are into hardcore DIY stuff. If you have money, you'll simply buy yourself the tools you need, because in the long run, it's a better investment.
I call BS. The tools required are hugely expensive.
The primary reason I want to make my own parts is because the parts I want do not exist
ProDarwin wrote:fanfoy wrote: The only reason to make your own part by yourself is to save money. Even if you really are into hardcore DIY stuff. If you have money, you'll simply buy yourself the tools you need, because in the long run, it's a better investment.I call BS. The tools required are hugely expensive. The primary reason I want to make my own parts is because the parts I want **do not exist**
I would like an example of a part you made that you couldn't buy?
And the tools are not that expensive:
Brand new 220V mig welder: 600$
HF metal bandsaw : 300$
Tubing bender with all the dies: 440$
Little Lathe: 1000$
With those four items, you can build most metal things for a car.
For total of 2340$. Cut that in half if you go with used tools (so about 1200$). Which is about what you will get back if you decide sell it.
Composites are labor intensive, but require almost no special tools.
125$/month x 12 months = 1500$ with nothing to show for it.
ProDarwin wrote:fanfoy wrote: The only reason to make your own part by yourself is to save money. Even if you really are into hardcore DIY stuff. If you have money, you'll simply buy yourself the tools you need, because in the long run, it's a better investment.I call BS. The tools required are hugely expensive. The primary reason I want to make my own parts is because the parts I want **do not exist**
I can agree with that. But I think the problem is that people that specifically driven are a small market to start off with, and that the portion of those willing to pay $125/ month to have access to the machinery all the time instead of taking the design to a contract shop is even smaller. Take that and reduce it even further to those in driving distance to one location....I think it stops making financial sense, even when you expand it to all the people who aren't car guys but are interested in this level of manufacturing.
fanfoy wrote: I would like an example of a part you made that you couldn't buy? 125$/month x 12 months = 1500$ with nothing to show for it.
I haven't made many parts you can't buy... but 2 examples are: IAC blockoff plate for a Saturn, stronger rear swaybar brackets for a Saturn. Next on my list is a trailer hitch receiver that bolts in place of the factory rear bumper to raise the hitch higher and not have it drag on everything. I have another 20 or 30 parts for a Saturn on my list, but extend the list to include other cars with near-zero aftermarket support and there are millions of items you can't buy that car-guys would like to make.
FARO Arm + CAD Software = ~$50,000+
CNC Machine = $Texas
Laser Cutter = $Texas
Press Brake = $Texas
All of those would be found in my dream instructional fab shop (plus the standard welder, tube bender, etc.)
$125/month + some build costs and I have several designs, working prototypes, and the confidence to have them manufactured by someone else for group buys.
In reply to ProDarwin:
All that parts you mentioned would have easily been made by a local machine shop for a lot less than 125$.
Your thinking about it too much like an engineer who wants the latest and greatest for productivity.
While a FARO arm is great and all, it's more of a productivity machine. You can take measurements with a few simple measuring tools and a flat reference surface. It longer and less acurate, but for a car, it's more than good enough.
The free CAD softwares are getting really good. For 2D stuff, Draftsight as nothing to envy Autocad. For 3D stuff, they aren't quite there yet, but in a year or two. While I do not condone such things, there are always hacked programs you know?
A bench-top press (30$) and a vise press (30$ for the thicker brackets) will take care of most bending required for a car project.
While not cheap per DIY prices, CNC machinery as drop way down in price. With the advent of machines like the Tormach, it has drove the prices down, so more and more shops drop prices. The local machine shop I use will CNC a part for me for really cheap if I arrive with the STEP file ready.
And laser cut parts have gotten so cheap, it making me lazy. I even get small brackets laser cut these days, because I would struggle to fabricate them for less than they can cut it out. And it wouldn't have the same precision. I use CBR Laser which is local to me. They even started to have laser cut tubing.
In reply to fanfoy:
We have a place in Ann Arbor now called Maker Works: http://maker-works.com/wordpress/
I lookend into joining a few months ago but couldn't afford the fee.
It's a great idea and I was super excited to learn of it. I used to work as a tool and die maker, so aside from CNc equipment I know how to use lathes, mills, etc.
As stated previously if you cater to the right market (those with money) you should do very well.
Good luck!
Most of my customers favorite tool is the telephone. When something breaks, they pick up a telephone and call someone to fix it. If you set this place up so that you gave lessons on how to use various tools, you would get some clients. Market it as a school to retrain the workforce. This state loves to spend big dollars on training unemployable people, who don't want to work, for a job they will never get. Look at the various trade schools turning out the worst plumbers, HVAC and electrical workers you have ever seen. You just can't turn an unemployed teddy bear warehouse worker into a tradesman no matter how much money you pay to train him.
fanfoy wrote: In reply to ProDarwin: All that parts you mentioned would have easily been made by a local machine shop for a lot less than 125$.
Yes, if I had the drawings already. There is no shop thats going to measure, design, and fab any of those things for $125.
fanfoy wrote: Your thinking about it too much like an engineer who wants the latest and greatest for productivity.
Yup, I am. See below.
fanfoy wrote: While a FARO arm is great and all, it's more of a productivity machine. You can take measurements with a few simple measuring tools and a flat reference surface. It lohttp://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/nger and less acurate, but for a car, it's more than good enough.
Yes, I understand this, but it is MASSIVELY time consuming, and very inaccurate. I say this as an engineer who used to design mobile command centers - which were upfitted from standard truck chassis/boxes - in a shop that did not have a FARO arm or equivalent. For something relatively simple... say a replacement rear window for a Suburban made from aluminum to mount antennas, pass through cables, etc. I would spend hours measuring, printing a 1:1 2d paper mockup, fitting, adjusting, etc. Its something with a FARO arm I could've done in 30mins - 1hr.
Add the complexity of an engine bay, parts that have complex measurements not on the standard orthagonal planes (manifolds for example), and organic shapes, and the value of a tool like that becomes huge.
fanfoy wrote: The free CAD softwares are getting really good. For 2D stuff, Draftsight as nothing to envy Autocad. For 3D stuff, they aren't quite there yet, but in a year or two. While I do not condone such things, there are always hacked programs you know?
Agreed, but very little of what I design is something I would care to deal with in 2D.
fanfoy wrote: And laser cut parts have gotten so cheap, it making me lazy. I even get small brackets laser cut these days, because I would struggle to fabricate them for less than they can cut it out. And it wouldn't have the same precision. I use CBR Laser which is local to me. They even started to have laser cut tubing.
Agreed. Lasered parts make me lazy too. I hope I never have to use a reciprocating saw to cut a 2D metal part ever again :)
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