LS197. A build thread.

Well, the town bicycle LS headers are now in hand.  Thanks to Angry and Quasi.

Plenty of oil pump clearance. Plenty of ground clearance. That 45* pump outlet fitting aims the outlet hose the wrong way, but a 90* or 120* should work well (if going back and across) or maybe a 180* (if going around the front).  I think I want to build a hard pipe to go around the front and bolt it rigid to the block, then couple it to the pump outlet and the block inlet with short runs of hose.  It's two additional fittings which I don't love, but less hose flopping around. I dunno. Maybe hose the whole way and just make us some good mounting provisions to keep it nice and tight to the block.

I'm loving this!

So much of this build parallels what I've been doing with my TVR! Engine transplant, dry sump, 7 1/4" QM flywheel/clutch pack w/ reverse mount starter, . . . even where/how to source the parts! 

It would be wonderful to think of your methodology as validation of my own process, but it's more likely that we share a cognitive processing flaw. 

In reply to DILYSI Dave :

And Racetruck Ron for selling them to me in the first place!

Slow_M said:

I'm loving this!

So much of this build parallels what I've been doing with my TVR! Engine transplant, dry sump, 7 1/4" QM flywheel/clutch pack w/ reverse mount starter, . . . even where/how to source the parts! 

It would be wonderful to think of your methodology as validation of my own process, but it's more likely that we share a cognitive processing flaw. 

1. Got a build thread?  I'd love to check out what you're doing. 
 

2.  Methodology / process / flawed cognition - very possible.  We're all kinda dumb for not just throwing this money at the retirement account. But retirement accounts don't make cool rumbly noises. :)  If you find yourself thinking "Hmmm - I might have done that differently..." feel free to query. I'm all for discussion and if we end up with cooler toys on the other side, all the better. 

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I'm just glad those are finally getting used.

In reply to DILYSI Dave :

'75 TVR M Ford 331ci V8| Builds and Project Cars forum | (grassrootsmotorsports.com)

DILYSI Dave said:

  We're all kinda dumb for not just throwing this money at the retirement account. But retirement accounts don't make cool rumbly noises. :)   

THIS!! I've waited 50 years to be able to do this kind of stuff!

At the rate I'm going, I'll be broke in no time!

DILYSI Dave said:

1. Got a build thread?  I'd love to check out what you're doing. 
 

2.  Methodology / process / flawed cognition - very possible.  We're all kinda dumb for not just throwing this money at the retirement account. But retirement accounts don't make cool rumbly noises. :)  If you find yourself thinking "Hmmm - I might have done that differently..." feel free to query. I'm all for discussion and if we end up with cooler toys on the other side, all the better. 

1. What Warren Said. 

2. I often wonder how different life would be if I'd just made payments on a store bought toy. A bought thing could still be tinkered with. I'd have a couple of decades of seat time of enjoyment. 

Slow_M said:

2. I often wonder how different life would be if I'd just made payments on a store bought toy. A bought thing could still be tinkered with. I'd have a couple of decades of seat time of enjoyment. 

I don't think there's a wrong answer. I've tinkered on the daily, I've gone all in on projects, I've meandered in and out of Motorsport as life and other hobbies beckon. As long as the important stuff is covered, then I'd say the right answer is whatever tingles your dingle. 

I machined a belt guide for the dry sump system. It presses onto the back side of the ATI damper. The ATI cog adapter has a guide built in to the front side, but nothing on the back side, and I didn't like that. There are guides available for the pump cog, but I wanted to be able to slip the belt off of the pump for pre-oiling. So this is where I landed.

I also maybe figured out what I want to do for venting the crankcase. It looks like it'd work reasonably well to drill and tap the valley plate cover where the PCV provisions live on some of the variations. Here it is with a 3/4 NPT to -12 / 90 degree fitting sitting in roughly the right place. Seems like it'd be tucked away reasonably well but also remain accessible and serviceable.

That would let let air into the crankcase so that it doesn't suck the seals inside out. They also recommend a pop-off valve for letting it depressurize if needed. I'm not convinced that's really needed, but these McMaster pieces (1 psi popoff valve - https://www.mcmaster.com/1093K1/) will screw into an existing hole in the valve covers and certainly won't hurt anything. So that's plan A right now. Dry sump tank venting is still another thing, but this should at least cover all of the engine venting.

But it isn't all CNC goodness - The Bridgeport got invited to the party today.

That was to get the OEM alternator bracket to play nice with the ARCA engine plates, after also sawing off the power steering provisions. That got us to here, mocking up the new belt routing -

As compared with stock -

Does that belt routing alteration give anyone in the giggle gallery heartburn?

If you're using a radiator with the upper hose on the drivers side, and you're using truck spacing, you might want to consider using a Camaro water pump...They exit out the front kind of by your idler. Then you'd need different belt routing.

If both upper and lower rad hoses are on the drinkers side, you're golden.

Good thought.  Thanks.  I've got a nice radiator already in the Mustang, and I'd like to hang on to it.  Here's the stock S197 system - 



And here is a decent view of the LS system - 




So if I'm understanding this, then the truck outlet is aiming towards the top of the passenger side, which is useful, but I need to get the Inlet (which is the thermostat housing) aiming down and driver side.  Sound right?  
 

My solution for not wanting to have to turn the oil pump for pre-oiling is to use an electric pump specifically for that function. The intention is to have it plumbed from the tank to the electric pump, and from there to the oil gallery with a one way valve. 

So, your radiator has the upper on the drinkers side and the lower on drivers side? If so, your setup should work good as long as you have enough room to run a lower hose over to driver side lower on radiator.

What are your plans for steam vent? I drilled and tapped 1/8" NPT and installed a fitting into top of water pump because my radiator didnt have a steam port. Works great.

that's a lot of belt wrap on the alternator and the idler on opposite side.

If the pulley near the alt is a tensioner, and if you can make it push the other direction, here's an idea:

it's less than 180 wrap on water pump, which *probably* is OK.

gsettle said:

What are your plans for steam vent? I drilled and tapped 1/8" NPT and installed a fitting into top of water pump because my radiator didnt have a steam port. Works great.

Definitely routing the front ports to the water pump.  I'd like to do the rears as well.  Bought one of the Motion 4 port kits before realizing it won't fit under my intake.  I'm considering tee-ing the rear ports together and running them under the valley plate and back out at the front.  It'd mean AN bulkhead fittings going through the valley plate and an AN line running inside the engine, which I don't know if I love, but I may prefer it to running them around the outside of the intake.  TBD.  

The only thing I would change about that belt routing is removing that stock tensioner and adding in a Katech tensioner.

A rabbit hole and a possible direction?

So, that belt routing would probably work but maybe not great.  And it also didn't account for AC, which I want to keep.  And I've been going back and forth on getting a Chinese electric compressor, but the Mustang already has great AC and it seemed a shame to toss that and spend money on the electric one and then have create another whole damn project by figuring out how to make electric AC work.  

So, stopped by FLAPS and grabbed a compressor for a Mustang and spent a couple hours re-creating it in Solidworks.  And then parked it in my engine model and started playing.  Got it to a place in space where I think I like it and can keep it there with these brackets (shown in blue) that won't be terrible to machine - 

With that done, let's go back over to the alternator side of things.  I ended up abandoning the OEM bracket in favor of my own.  Rear bracket bolts to the ARCA motor plate.  Front one Bolts through the alternator to the rear one, uses a spacer to bolt a third leg back to the ARCA plate, and then that front plate also becomes a home for an OE idler.



With all of that done, here's the belt routing that I think I like - 



 

The thermostat housing is trying to cut the belt in this, but in the real world I'm flipping that and aiming it towards the driver side.  But this is a dumb model that won't let me do that in CAD.  The only big question mark I have is on that span from the crank to the AC compressor.  It may now be the same issue as the old alternator setup, with a large enough span that I need to figure out an idler there too.  

Good news - I'm still smiling.  

Can you fit it on the lower drivers side of the block where the powersteering pump normally is on truck accessories?  It would help give you good belt wrap on the alt and water pump and push 10lbs or so lower into the chassis.

Thought about it, but I want to give myself the best chance I can for steering clearance.  Which is also why the alternator is up high.  

And on reflection, I don't love the OE tensioner in this configuration.  I mean, I don't love it at all, but I don't think it actually does much tensioning in this configuaration.   Still noodling.  

I did go ahead and figure out how to get another idler in there to break up the span to the compressor.  Modified one of the compressor brackets to give it provisions for it.  I think I like it, though it kills flipping the thermostat housing.  Not a big deal as the aftermarket straight out ones are cheap.  

In reply to DILYSI Dave :

Is that enough crank wrap?

And enough ac wrap??

Fine.  You want more wrap?  I'll give you more wrap.  :)

That gets me 188* of wrap on the crank, 178* on the water pump, 167* on the alternator, and 184* on the AC compressor. I also rather like the symmetry and aesthetics of it.

It all started with seeing if I could create a plate that bolts on where the waterpump does, and then use that to park the idlers. Worked out decent -
 

Now, all of this is still based around the earlier mention of "If I have to mount the compressor anyway, why not make IT my tensioner". The spring loaded tensioners have a reputation of misbehaving at high RPM, so places like Katech already eliminate those in favor of fixed adjustment style, so it seemed like a decent path to follow. Here's where I landed -

Blue piece is one piece 1" thick that captures all 3 of the M8 mounting points on the Ford compressor. It is pinned and bolted to the yellow piece, and the two lower M8's pass through the blue bracket and thread into the yellow, making it all a sandwich. The pivot is an M10 that threads into a large hole in the head, and the forward end of this bolt is also supported by the green bracket, which is mounted with two M10's and is where the original spring loaded tensioner lived. Adjustment is still handled via a rod end arrangement using M10 hardware, bridging between one of those OE tensioner mounting locations and the top of the blue bracket.

Alright, hit me!

In other news, I went to the "Old dude who sells used NASCAR stuff out of a storage locker" place this morning to pick up a scavenge filter that he posted on FBM last week. Ended up scrounging through his AN line totes and found nearly everything I need for a flat $10/line. After I had done all of that I said "I don't know what tank I actually need, but I could use one for mockup and would rather not throw nice-tank money at the mockup part. Do you have any tanks that are just this side of garbage?" He said "I have exactly that!" and dug through his tank section until he pulled out maybe the first dry sump tank ever made, which has also definitely been in a wreck. But it was $10 instead of $300, so it is exactly what I was asking for. Walked out of there with the tank, scavenge filter, five -12 lines, two -16 lines, and a handful of random fittings for $150.