Nocones $2020 challenge build thread

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Or just leave the center caps off. I like the pic without better.

When those wheels are on, the whole look reminds me of the Toyota GR Hypercar, and I agree-no center caps.

Wife was out of town this weekend so not as much time on the car.   But here is fuel tank progress over the weekend.  Paperboard mockup.

To steel.  I had planned to use a chunk of a Diesel Oil Filter can I dumpster dived as the sump but decided it would be easier to just bend some sheet.  

There is a sump.  

Tonight I build baffles and start welding.  I also will build a roll over valve and vent line.  

+4 hours, +$6.67

In other news I've reached the grumpy frustrated portion of the project.  I'm in the final push before the challenge and I'm trying to get excited to hurry up and not get as much done as I wanted, to a lower quality then I'm capable of, while stress putting together my build book/budget.

I know that whatever I bring to the challenge will be awesome, but it's just frustrating here now.  

Every step of progress I see on this build absolutely blows me away! It is Binky level of attention to detail, I can only hope when i can get back to consistently working on a project I can be a quarter as good as this!

In reply to DjGreggieP :

I appreciate the sentiment lumping my build in with that one.  Just keep practicing you will get there with practice.  

This temporary Gas tank has gotten out of hand...

I tested my gas cap and it's "not officially vented".  As the cap is from a 1978 MG midget the soft rubber gasket is more like a black hunk of wood, but it still provides mostly a seal and vent flow is quite low.  So I couldn't really depend on it for venting the tank, which means I needed a vent.   Additionally as the tank is located directly behind me (behind a 2 layer firewall but still) I figured it should have some additional safety features of modern tanks.  Mainly valves to shut off flow out the cap/vent if the car becomes part of a Berenstain Bears book and becomes upside down.   The issue is,  Those typically are expensive.  AN type tip over valves are $15-20 and I would need a large one for the fill line.  So.. ..   Cue A-team music.

I cut up this broken no longer working generator fuel transfer pump from my RV.  Thank you 2 years ago Nocones for saying "That brass nipple is pretty nice.. I should throw that in a drawer in case I need it some day".  Well that day is today!  Victory for my dense hoard.  This 100% fully validates the arbitrary collection of any amount of items that I think "may be useful".  This brass fiting was just part of the pump.  So I'm counting it as $0 because it is an incalculably small amount of 1 ton of scrap metal.

I then made this little series of parts.  A piece of 5/8 tube was cut and cross drilled to hold a short piece of turned down solid.  The tip was lathed into a roughly ball shape.  I held the valve in the lathe and pressed the brass part against it to "lap" the sealing surface to make them mate a little better.  

Some welding ensued and I was left with this.  The bottom part gets welded to a 3/4" hole in the tank.  The valve is dropped in and the nipple screwed in.  The result is a valve that closes when the tank flips over, but when upright allows air to flow through the holes.  

I did the same thing for the bottom of the fill tube.  Here 1" x .120 DOM was used an the "valve" is a chunk of 3/4" diameter solid but the process was the same.   The fill valve is welded together and can't be disassembled.  But otherwise is functionally identical.  

I then proceded to attempt to weld the tank.  I started out trying to TIG weld it.  When Gumby was over, he noted that my Eastwood TIG welder seemed to struggle to go bellow a floor amperage that was probably a bit high for anything under say .060 steel.  This is the first time I've attempted welding anything "Sheet metal" with it and his suspicion was confirmed.   It's *Possible* to weld thin sheet with this welder, but you have to move quicker then you ideally want to.   So I gave up after a short stretch and just used the metal glue gun and MIGed it.  

I filled it with water and it only had a few small leaks.  I used the Propane torch to heat these areas and dry them fully, then cleaned the welds and did a nother pass in these areas and it holds now.  It's not my best work, but it's also a very temporary gas tank.

So the tank is "Done".  

But it's not done.

In the interest of safety I'm going to paint it, then cover the bottom of the tank in a layer of Fiberglass.  Fiberglass gas tanks are somewhat common in boating.  Apparently the Polyurethane resin is not likely to hold fuel for long, but it won't actually be the tank.  The tank is the Metal.  The fiberglass is in case the tank develops a crack.   Based on the surface area of steel the cost to fiberglass the tank is only $4.  The piece of mind of knowing if a crack developed that the tank won't leak is worth $4.   

I also have to develop a mount system.  I'm going to use straps the same as the Fuel cell to avoid welding brackets to the tank.  

I'm not understanding why there are two rollover vents. If the gas cap is not vented, then isn't it already sealed in a rollover? I would think you only need the tank vent. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

I put it on because my super old gas cap doesn't fully seal.   Most organizations say the tank has to have vent / fill lines designed such that the tank wont leak if inverted.  I figured I needed it to ensure that, though its probably not required for the Challenge or the Tech inspection at the FIRM.  That said I tend to play belt and suspenders with the Fire parts of the car.  I probably didn't really need that one, but it was easy to make now vs add later. 

So that's why I did it, but thinking about it you are right I could of left it behind. 

Ah, I see. So it was cheaper to fab a custom rollover vent than to buy a new gas cap that properly seals. And both is better for safety. Very GRM :) 

Which TIG welder do you have? My Eastwood AC/DC TIG 200 has been fine with everything I have done so far.

In reply to TurboFource :

It's the TIG 200.  It works really really well. I'm overall happy with it.  Mine just won't hold an arc at a low enough amperage for 24/22/20 gauge.   Which admittedly is THINN.  It stabilizes at an amperage that frequently blows through and no amount of lowering the dial, or pedal gain will make it work. 

It really likes .050+ and loved doing the rollbar at continuous welds at .095.   Again no complaints would buy again it's just a limit of my particular machine.  Would love to try someone else's and see if it's different.   One thing I didn't do and may try is run it on 110 to see if it can go lower since thr ratio across the inverter would be halved.  

In reply to nocones :

Definitely run it on 110 and see if it makes a difference for you. I've had an early early build of that welder since it was released... its done hundreds and hundreds of hours of sheet metal work. Replaced the pedal a few times and switched the torch over to a more suitable setup... but it has NO problem welding .020"-.040" material and I've used and abused the hell out of it. It's my go to recommended welder for people wanting a cheap TIG, just for that reason.  It's built many tanks, fenders, done tons of sheet metal repair, chassis work, etc. 

Nowadays it's all Lincoln in the shop, but I still use and abuse my Eastwood setup on side stuff. 

In reply to GaryC83 :

Yes can confirm.  I ran out and tried an Ill prepped .020 coupon with 110V and was successful.   So the machine appears to have better low amp control on 110.  Which makes perfect sense.  I'm sure I'd have had excellent success if I had 1/16 diam filler rod, the correct diameter electrode (which I was probably one size to big on electrode), and ran on 110V.  

Like I said.  Love the machine.  Happy to learn it has more capability for when I get the time to dedicate to dialing myself in and exploring it.  Watching Retropower it appears I would prefer to do my bodywork with TIG but I admit I just didn't have time to explore setting the machine up and just grabbed the MIG whenever I got frustrated.

In reply to nocones :

Awesome, glad it worked out for you. And yeah, it's just a quirk of the machine and a dual voltage inverter setup like it is. Our lincoln precision 275's obviously don't have an issue with opposite ends of the spectrum like that on 220v, but you're also looking at a non-portable $10K setup vs I think it the TIG 200 listed for like $800 when it first came out and I got mine.  Again, theyre awesome starter machines for sure. 

For most sheet metal I use a purple 3/32 tungsten... on really thin delicate stuff I'll hop down to a 1/16, but thats rare. I also HUGELY recommend .035 filler vs 1/16. I'll use 1/16 occasionally, but a nice tight fit up and .035 is a dream.

If you're ever out this way, feel free to drop by the shop to see how we do it. Take all the pictures you want of anything but the Ridler car. That's pretty much it, everything else we are wide open with. 

I run mine on 110 and the copper I used for "vanes" in my intake is .015" 

My little Esab machine will hold lower amps on 110 than 220 as well.  I think that's pretty normal for lower end dual voltage machines.

MIG wire works just fine as TIG filler if you need small diameters.  It typically has more silicon content, but that won't hurt anything.

Progress.  I has it. 

More tank work.  Fiberglass is on because of the shape I have to do it in 2 layups, and it was cold last night so instead of 1.5 for cure it took 4 so i was only able to get 1 layup done.

I also prepped the side windows and fender finish pieces for fiberglass.  These should look good.

This weekend is 2 full days of work so should be lots of progress.  But that said it's only 5 days before I leave so there won't be that much more done.  Just a bunch of smaller things that hopefully make the car look a bit more "finished".  

nocones said:

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

I'm using Chopped Strand Matt whenever I am using Polyester resin.  

I use 1.5oz woven E glass with epoxy.   The CSM I bought apparently has binders that epoxy will dissolve but since I'm building parts for stiffness vs strength I've not seen a point in trying CSM with epoxy.  

I am planning to make a "Fiberglass by a Dummy" video after the Challenge.  Literally cover what it took for me to go from owning absolutely nothing related to Fiberglass to making Fiberglass parts.  I have a few parts on the car I want to make post challenge so I'll have some stuff to film the process.  It's not exactly new ground but most of the videos I've seen don't start literally at ground zero with what tools and equipment you need to get started from the bottom.  

so, how are you getting the glass layers so smooth? the resin roller? and are you doing two wet layers at a whack, or one layer, dry, next layer? 

howabout applying resin to the mat and buck? wet buck, mat,drip onto mat, work in?

im refreshing my memory and learning on a sub box before moving over to body parts. currently working with chopped strand mat and bondo resin. i have fiberglass rollers, 1 inch paint brush, mixing cups, and no fear of failure. 

oh, and a 13 year old helping my "im no smarter than a stoned 17 year old" self.  

Yes the "smoothness" comes from the resin rollers and making sure it's fully saturated.  They aren't perfect, but in the above image the sidepod is literally just the demolded part painted.  I didnt' sand it at all.

I wet the buck, add mat, then work more resin in with the chip brush.  Wetting the mat tends to hold it in position on the part so I will do some patches to get it smooth before resin saturating the rest.  Also with any hard corners, I will usually saturate them and let the resin sit for a bit before I bend the mat around the corner.   The mat is bound with a dissolvable binder.  When it dissolves it is MUCH more flexible then it is dry or even wetted.  

I try to do 1 layer on the entire part, then work back around and do a second layer where needed while the part is still tacky. 

The roller is the way to make it smooth.  If there is enough resin you will get a smooth surface as the resin will self level (within reason, to much will run/pool).  The roller pushes the fibers down into the resin and minimizes the amount of surface fibers.  It also spreads the resin evenly, so you can get away with having some under saturated parts before you start roller work because it will even it out.   I seriously roller the part for like 20-30 minutes until the resin starts getting hard.  Like hard enough that the roller doesn't leave tracks anymore.   The roller has a distinctly different sound when it is rolling over hardened resing compared to wet resin.  I roll until I start hearing that sound.  You can also tell the resin is "going off" if you hold your hand like 1/2" away it will be HOT.  It stays relatively cool while it initially tacks up (goes from molasses to like putty), then all of a suden after 30-45 minutes (Or longer if it's <70 in your shop, last night took 2.5 hours @ 55) the resin will quickly go from putty to hard over about 5 minutes and get really hot.  It's really interesting to watch happen.  The part goes from "shiny" to "matte" at the same time.  Once this happens, further roller work does nothing.   I will stop rollering before the "going off" if the part looks very smooth and has no air bubbles or voids in it.  I will check it every 5 minutes to make sure that sharp corners aren't sagging or opening up and if necessary re-roll. 

If I'm doing a second layer, and the resin has "gone off" I wait until the next day and do some sanding before laying on the layer.   I have no basis for this, but I figure the resin has a good chance of making a chemical bond to the layer below if both layers are still gel.  Once the layer is hard, you are relying on a mechanical bond, so you need the surface roughed up to give good grip.  

 After the part has went off and is cool to the touch again it can be demolded, however it is still not "cured" and will remain flexible.  They will actually warp and cure warped if you bend them at this point.  I usually pull the parts off the mold, stare at them for a bit, this is a good oportunity to trim the part as you can generally still cut it with a razor blade at this point.   I then return the part to the mold (usually after giggling maniacly when I hold it up to the car) for the next 12 hours or so while the resin "cures".  Bondo says it's 48-72 hours but I've noticed the parts are MUCH more rigid even 6-8 hours later.  

I had 0 experience with this.  I watched a lot of TofuAutoworks videos to see his techniques (Not that it's a super "how to do it" instructional type Youtube but you watch him work with fiberglass), and did a bit of reading, but otherwise just jumped in.  I'm ~7 parts in and it's starting to become easier to get consistent results.  I will start at "Fiberglass from nothing" thread after the challenge but please post up what you do.  So many of our car parts are fiberglass and it seems so intimidating but after doing it for a bit it's not that bad.  The roof I made is a huge piece and it was the 5th part I made.   

I love that 360 so much..such a bad ass project.   Keep up the awesome work. I can't wait to see pictures of it, in its 2022 challenge form. 

All fiberglass layups before the challenge are done.  These little front of the fender parts really where not a place where I needed to put any time.  But..   they make the car look like 1000% more finished so..  worth it??

Dang.. it's coming together.. a lot less kart more a lot more race car. Having the body sealed in really makes a difference visually 

Dunno what the plan/budget is... but some foam and black tape... or "carbon effect" vinyl covering the rear center support would be a visual help, imho

pretty easy to do that in the parking lot, though

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

Dunno what the plan/budget is... but some foam and black tape... or "carbon effect" vinyl covering the rear center support would be a visual help, imho

pretty easy to do that in the parking lot, though

Agree. Contrasting color on the vertical fin will emphasize the bubble shape. 

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

I'm planning to skin both sides of it with aluminum.  It will be angled to match the start of the endplates.   

Color on the fin element will depend on if I have time to do my secret painting.  If I don't I will probably paint it slightly darker blue.