If you were running a type one you could install extended pushrods tubes and a deep sump.
You may have already used these before.
The pushrods tubes have about an extra inch added toward the lifter end that keeps the oil from instantly running into the valve cover.
It may be possible to add an extension to type four tubes, at least they are easier to install than type one pushrod tubes.
Does a type four have a windage tray?
If it does it will definitely have an advantage over a type one.
In reply to JThw8:
Dunes- the issue with using that data is 1G = 45 deg. That's one heck of a dune.
And I'm sure you are shooting for north of 1g.
For probably over a min.
(actually, I would also wonder about wheel camber, too- but that's a different thing to think about)
Lonny wrote: If you were running a type one you could install extended pushrods tubes and a deep sump. You may have already used these before. The pushrods tubes have about an extra inch added toward the lifter end that keeps the oil from instantly running into the valve cover. It may be possible to add an extension to type four tubes, at least they are easier to install than type one pushrod tubes. Does a type four have a windage tray? If it does it will definitely have an advantage over a type one.
My understanding from research so far is that the T4 had the extended pushrod tube and windage tray stock so they are better suited for the effort. But so far that's just internet lore so I don't have complete confirmation on that. Part of me needs to spend some time reading info from Jake Raby, but part of me does not want to go down that rabbit hole, this is a cheap/quick build not a major effort.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to JThw8: Dunes- the issue with using that data is 1G = 45 deg. That's one heck of a dune. And I'm sure you are shooting for north of 1g. For probably over a min. (actually, I would also wonder about wheel camber, too- but that's a different thing to think about)
Agreed dunes aren't quite the same but it is at least an indicator that carbed motors can handle extreme angles when needed.
Shooting for north of 1g? I'm not shooting for anything. I'm just building this because I needed a simple fabrication project to get me back into things after a long hiatus. Basically I wanted a "quick win" project before I start on the next 2 years + of Wartburg building. If I show up at the challenge and find that the engine starves for fuel and thats all she wrote then I'll park it, grab a beer and watch the show, and I'm ok with it.
There is some degree of camber adjustment in the stock ball joint front end. Because they are really cheap I'll be putting in "racing" camber adjusters which allow a bit more range of adjustment. The rear is what it is, at least its IRS not swingaxle.
Again, not trying to hard, not over thinking it, just cleaning it up, slapping big tires on it and getting stupid in a circle :)
Im jealous of your build, I bet it will get around a skid pad very well.
It is quite easy to put camber in rear of an irs.
When we raced circle track we put positive camber on the inside tire and negative on the outside.
It would definitely help to have negative camber on both sides for a skid pad.
To set ours we drilled a couple of holes in a steel plate and welded it to a long pipe. We then attached this to the drum using two lug nuts. We put a little heat on the swing arm while pulling.
It doesn't take much to move them.
We also used this to straighten the swing arms after occasional contact with cars and walls.
Lonny wrote: Im jealous of your build, I bet it will get around a skid pad very well. It is quite easy to put camber in rear of an irs. When we raced circle track we put positive camber on the inside tire and negative on the outside. It would definitely help to have negative camber on both sides for a skid pad. To set ours we drilled a couple of holes in a steel plate and welded it to a long pipe. We then attached this to the drum using two lug nuts. We put a little heat on the swing arm while pulling. It doesn't take much to move them. We also used this to straighten the swing arms after occasional contact with cars and walls.
Ahh, good point. I meant there wasn't a stock camber adjustment :) One of the arms on this one is bent something fiece, sadly in the wrong direction. But I got a got set of used arms, once everything is mounted I will try to dial in a little negative camber.
JThw8 wrote: Shooting for north of 1g? I'm not shooting for anything. I'm just building this because I needed a simple fabrication project to get me back into things after a long hiatus. Basically I wanted a "quick win" project before I start on the next 2 years + of Wartburg building. If I show up at the challenge and find that the engine starves for fuel and thats all she wrote then I'll park it, grab a beer and watch the show, and I'm ok with it. Again, not trying to hard, not over thinking it, just cleaning it up, slapping big tires on it and getting stupid in a circle :)
Slapping good tires on that, it should easily be over 1g.
Plus, it seems like an interesting problem to try to solve- depending on the location of the jet in the bowl, you can set the float so that the height is correct while cornering. Or at least closer- as long as it does not starve.
Or something like that.
Your constraints are pretty straight forward- no EFI, low cost, probably using the parts you have. Etc. Now solve that problem.
alfadriver wrote: Now solve that problem.
All very good points and you have caused me to do some more research. It appears in a fit of blind luck I am closer to the solution than thought. I'll admit some of my build choices are influenced by aesthetics. I could get a set of stock 32/34 PIC carbs fairly cheap but I've been holding out for a set of 40 or 44 IDFs (or knock offs due to budget) because a) more power and b) they look cool.
Well it turns out the IDF is a redesign of the DCNF, the purpose of which is to make it better at fueling during high g-force side loading :) IDFs have a very high tolerance for this and are designed for the task. Of course once I have secured an actual set of carbs I will look at them further and research what, if any, improvements can be made to help with sustained loading.
In reply to JThw8:
Not following every detail but am sure I will get a chance to check it all out before too long...
First thought: I still have a gallon of gunmetal metalic paint & stuff in the basement. Should be plenty left over for you if we ever shoot my car...
Second: knowing how you do things / your knowledge base a little I am surprised you are not looking into airbag suspension. Seems like a pretty easy and cool way to adjust balance and quick to make adjustments for damping & preload...
Keep this thread going; I think we all appreciate the well documented cool stuff going on here.
Since investigation is cheaper than a motor - I'd be tempted to get the car running then start doing some tests with it tilted at a side angle. Monitor oil pressure and everything else and be ready to shut down at the first sign of a problem. Once you can have it run happily at 45 degrees for a minute, you're good for the skidpad party.
I've done this for fuel pickup investigation 
TB, thank you my friend and please dont forget one of the reasons I've kept a "must be able to roll" attitude is so I can roll this thing out of the shop to attack your car when I can really free up a weekend. Sadly so far I've been grabbing an hour here, 3 hours there but never a full day or better two days which we need to start tackling things.
Keith Tanner wrote: Since investigation is cheaper than a motor - I'd be tempted to get the car running then start doing some tests with it tilted at a side angle. Monitor oil pressure and everything else and be ready to shut down at the first sign of a problem. Once you can have it run happily at 45 degrees for a minute, you're good for the skidpad party. I've done this for fuel pickup investigation
I like the way you think Keith and yes that is pretty much my plan. All the anecdotal or even documented evidence in the world is nothing like hands on trial and error. I learn much more in a real world scenario than in theoreticals. That's why most of my goals right now are just toward up and running as fast as I can. Once I have a functional vehicle it will allow me to test and tune to my hearts content.
In reply to JThw8:
Appreciated, but don't struggle too hard to work around me. We will get to the bimmer when it works out, no worries. I just realized it might be convenient to shoot some of your parts at the same time; or you can at least keep any extra paint if you want it. Also, I think we could just pick up and move the rail if needed!
Keith definitely has a good technique for checking things at extreme angles / g loads... but I seem to remember that you live right on a nice, smooth curved stretch of a quiet little subdivision. 
What are the Formula Vee guys doing for oiling?
VWguyBruce wrote: What are the Formula Vee guys doing for oiling?
I never did much beyond maybe a deeper sump and the extended pushrod tube as mentioned. But Vees aren't holding sustained g's like a skidpad effort would require.
I've been out of aircooled VWs for about 25 years now, but back in the day dry sumps were easy for Type 1s - just replace the oil pump with the trick one that would both pump out the old and pump in the new and plumb it to the oil storage tank - easy bolt-on setup. I can't remember if this setup was available for Type 4s, though. Worth checking out, though. Back then my Vee just had the extended pushrod tubes and a 250 cc extended sump, that's all the rules would allow, but drag racers and off roaders used the dry sumps a lot.
Jim Pettengill wrote: I've been out of aircooled VWs for about 25 years now
Nothing has changed I assure you (been playing with them slightly less longer than you)
The T4 has some of the "lessons learned" from the T1 built in. Sadly though everything else is 4 times the cost when upgrading. They do have better stock oiling from the get go but when you start looking for information on improvements the signals get messy. I generally find myself looking at information for Porsche 914s rather than VWs because they've had more performance modifications done to them.
I see some of the talk about fuel and im not sure how helpful offroad information will be but my dads personal sandrail used a 350 holley 2 barrel with the float level slightly elevated and never had fuel issues on steep climbs or side hilling. Not sure if the side hilling works off the same basics or if the physics of sudden and dramatic g force changes will make it alot diffrent.
In reply to dropstep:
A 1 g continuous turn on a flat pad is the same to the engine as crawling around a 45* banked corner.
Finally pulled the rest of the beam apart tonite. I was hoping to salvage the internal bearings but no go. Now I have to make a puller and get them out, quite a pain. The spring packs were also wedged in the trailing arms pretty solid. Its been a long time since I pulled one apart but I think they tried to stiffen it up by wedging an extra spring in there.
I have to take the trailing arms to a shop and have the old ball joints pressed out, they are a mess. I already ordered ones designed for lowered applications. The boxes of parts are coming in steadily, I think the $1000 budget is a pipe dream but I should still be well under $2k by the end. I could have done things cheaper but I wanted to do them right instead, whomever buys this off me at the end of this all will be getting a very solid platform.
I'm off to order more parts now...sigh. This, my friends, is what scope creep looks like.
JThw8 wrote: I think the $1000 budget is a pipe dream but I should still be well under $2k by the end.
For a change I'm actually maintaining a pretty accurate count so I updated the spreadsheet today...$2000 might be gone soon too, its amazing how all those little things add up. I should recoup quite a bit on the the 1600 motor though, I just haven't wanted to put it up for sale until I know the 2 liter is a good runner.
Well these should make things a little more interesting ;)
iadr wrote:it turns out the IDF is a redesign of the DCNFUh, no, not true. Could be related to some other carb (they look like a smaller IDA) but not really DCNF at all.
The term re-design may be inappropriate but they were created as an improvement over the DCNF and share many of the same internal parts despite external appearances. I'm not a carb expert by any means, just sharing what I have found in researching what I'm working with.
IDA vs IDF is just a difference of race vs street, the IDAs to do not have a low speed circuit
Time to get some floors in this thing. I have to get all the fabrication mock up done before painting, it feels like Im bouncing around all over the place on this but there's an order and Im waiting on parts for some of the mechanical stuff.
So its simple, get part A to fit into slot B
I had really wanted to make it a one piece floor but the way the angles are on the frame it wasn't happening, I spent an hour trying to get the rough cut floor into place. This is probably why folks that want a one piece mount it to the bottom but I really dont like that.
So two pieces it is. The smaller front piece.
And then the back piece. These are still just laid in roughly. I'll pull them out to grind the edges smooth and weld mount tabs to the frame, and of course for painting. The back piece is still a tight fit but it's goes in at least.
I have a piece left to make a rear firewall behind the seats as well. Nice and shiny.
Why not mount it on the bottom? Seems that would be preferable, lets you potentially drop the seats a touch more, cleans up airflow underneath, adds a layer of protection to the tubes, toes-steering shaft clearance, etc.
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