In reply to wvumtnbkr :
Ah, yes, I did and I didn't mean that! Both sides do read the same with the system off, which is what I expected. But they also read the same as what they did a month or so ago when I put a couple cans of refrigerant in, which I was hoping for!
In reply to wae :
Which doesn't mean all that much until you get to a certain point. The refrigerant exists as a gas and a liquid in the system. Pressure affects boiling point in all liquids, what happens is the liquid in the system boils off until the vapor gases create enough pressure to stop the boiling. So the static pressure at a given temperature will always be the same until the system is SO low that there is not any liquid in it anymore, which generally means you are down to a couple ounces of refrigerant.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The only thing I'm taking from that is that there aren't any really large holes in the system. Since it held a vacuum, I was pretty sure about that, but I've had other cars that would leak down to near-zero after a month or two. Now, the AC still isn't turning the compressor on by itself, but I haven't even started to troubleshoot that yet. It's one of those things that I'll get around to thinking about eventually.
We did, however, pop a new battery in it last night and gave the alternator belts a little more tension. The daughter was finding that if she put the top and the windows down before starting the car it wouldn't have enough juice to turn the engine over. Maybe that's what has been causing the very occasional no-start condition, but I sort of doubt it. The trick, of course, was that neither Costco nor Menards had a group 26 or 26R in stock and I didn't feel like going anywhere else.
At Menards, I found a group 34 battery. The posts were on the correct sides of the battery - although I don't know that it would matter that much, given the way the battery sits in the Saab - and it was approximately the right size. The 34 was about 2 inches longer than the 26, but the height and width were just about the same. Cranking and cold cranking amps were in an acceptable range (625/500). It took a little bit of wiggling to get it place, but it fit in the battery tray with room for the hold-downs on either side.
We also found that the pinch bolt on the negative terminal was really hard to thread so we cleaned it and its nut up with a tap and die. The car doesn't seem to start any differently than it did before, but I feel a bit better about it. I had been meaning to tell my daughter that she should really do the windows and the top while the car was running, but I never quite got around to mentioning that. For most of the summer she had no problem doing that and then starting up the car but in the last week the car needed a jumpstart twice after she did that and nonce when she didn't. That tells me that the battery was getting a bit weak. It's worth $90. I also took the time to show my daughter how to use the remote starter switch in the event that The Problem happens again.
The alternator belts were a little bit looser than I'd like, so I walked her through the process of how to tighten up the belts a bit.
We were going to replace the oil pressure switch, but that's a story. Comfortable? Okay, good. Here we go:
For the last several years, my FLAPS of choice has been the O'Reilly near the workshop. I don't wind up with very many bad-out-of-the-box parts from them, they tend to have stock on things that the other places don't, their prices are decent compared to the other counters, and the most important bit is that the people working behind the counter are good to deal with. The biggest problem I've had with the service there is that they're not real good about calling you to let you know that your part has arrived. I can live with that.
When I went in to buy the alternator belts and order the oil pressure switch, the guy behind the counter - someone I had never seen in the store before - took about a minute or two before putting down his phone and acknowledging the fact that I was standing in front of him. He then proceeded to try to explain to me how Chevy originally started Saab while also slathering his computer in profanity because he lacked some basic keyboard and mouse skills. I had to fight him to give me two of the same part number for the alternator belts because he was absolutely certain that even though the computer told him that the "number on car" of the belt was 2, a second belt on the alternator pulley could only go to a different pulley and it wasn't possible that it would use two of the same size belt. All of that should have been a sign, but after he finally relented and brought forth the two belts I needed, my mouth - without my permission, I might add! - went off and asked him if he had the oil pressure sender in stock.
That generated a very painful combination of computer incompetence, lack of reading comprehension, profanity, and general dunderheadedness. Eventually, I had to very firmly instruct him to go back to the beginning, select number whatever for senders and switches, then engine, then switches, then scroll down to oil pressure. It was very frustrating. We finally came to the point where it was determined that they could order it in from another store and it would be there on Monday. He insisted that I not pay for it until I pick it up and I was really done arguing at that point. He warned me that it would come in on Monday morning, they would call me, and I'd have to pick it up within 3 days.
There wasn't really a good opportunity for me to sneak in there on Monday, but since I had three days, I figured it wasn't a big deal. We stopped in last night - that's Tuesday, for those of you keeping score at home - to pick it up. A different guy I've never seen before went back to look for it and came back empty-handed. Oh, yeah, they sent it back to the other store already. But I thought I had three days? Yeah, you've got three days. But yesterday to today is one day. Even if it's first thing in the morning to first thing in the morning, we're only at a day and a half. Yeah, sometimes they send it back early. So I don't have three days? Yeah, you have three days.
Sigh.
He offered to order it up again and it would be in by Friday. I looked him in the eye and said that I wanted to get it here because it was convenient. I'll just go ahead and pay a whole lot less for a better part and order it from Rock Auto. Which I did.
So anyway, early next week I'll get the oil pressure sender in and we'll go ahead and swap that out to see if it slows down the Valdez action we have going on.
Good info on the battery, we are close to needing a new one for my son's car.
In reply to wae :
The nearest FLAPS to my house is Advanced Auto Parts about 3/4 mile away. There's an older dude who works the counter on Saturdays named Bill. I wish everybody was like Bill. Bill is a walking, talking encyclopedia of parts lore whose knowledge includes some truly arcane bits and pieces.
Well, this might be a problem: Got a bit of a rock strike a couple weeks ago and there's a crack in the windshield. Filed the glass claim with my insurance and pointed them to my local glass company. Local glass guy called me and said that based on the year/make/model, he can't find a windshield for it so he's got to go do some research. Ruh roh!
In reply to wae :
That 900 vert is still at the LKQ in Dayton if worse comes to worse.
In reply to Aaron_King :
It may have to come to that. I've done that a couple times in the past and I think to get two windshields for two different cars, I needed to break about 7.
My son and I are planning on heading there on Sunday if that helps at all.
Good news: apparently there's one windshield left and it's in Tennessee. Insurance is picking up the tab for the 300-400 it's costing to ship it plus the cost of the glass itself. Yikes!
If you know what brand parts a parts store sells, you can use Rock Auto's online catalog to find it faster.
Salesdroid at Autozone said air pump belts were not in his system. I asked, okay, you use Dayco numbering, right? Whipped out my phone (such decadence!) and in 10 seconds I asked if he had a 15350 in stock.
The convertible top doesn't want to move. I had the daughter pull the rear seat out and we dug around a bit tonight to discover the right hydraulic ram is leaking like a sieve.
She put it all back together and I'm going to order up a new ram. Then I can rebuild this one maybe and use it on the left side when that one fails.
Coincidentally, the car has also failed to start a couple times. This time, though, there is zero power in the car - no interior lights, no dash lights, nothing. The first time, I ran the daughter to work and came back to look at it and it was, of course, fine. When I went to run the car up to her workplace so I wouldn't have to pick her up later, it was dead again.
I turned on the AC and put the ignition in "run" and started proving around with my test light. The battery lit it up, but none of the fuses had power. I bumped the positive cable and things started working. Everything seemed okay at that point so I decided to drive it up there, get a cup of coffee, and then enjoy the 3 mile walk home.
When I arrived at her work, I wound up the windows and as they got to the top of their travel the car started to choke but came right back as soon as I let off the window switch. I tried it again without letting off and, sure enough, the car died. No lights, no power anywhere. A quick jiggle of the battery cable and all was well.
While I'm sure that things were tight after the new battery, the hold downs were rather loose, so I had her tighten those up. Now the battery isn't moving. We put the brights on, turned the car to run and clicked the AC button to turn on the fan and put a good load on the system. No matter how much we wiggled the battery cable around we couldn't move it against the battery post and we couldn't get the car to lose power. Just on a park, I had her give the 10mm nut a turn on the positive battery terminal and sure enough it wasn't really torqued down much. The terminal didn't move at all, but I suppose it could have still been a loose connection, especially with the battery banging around.
So far with the battery braced and the terminal torqued, things seem to be okay.
Still need to get that oil leak squared away. This Friday, I'm hoping we can maneuver things in the shop so that I have access to the lift bay again.
The starting problem is solved, but the radio has sort of stopped working. I think it's just a cheap junky head unit.
But the radio will have to wait because the car is at Jack's Glass for a new windshield. Apparently, they cannot get one part of the windshield moulding so they said they have to buy a new tool in order to cut the glass out in such a way to preserve the existing moulding so it can be reused. He was a little shocked when I told him that someone did, indeed, drive the car pretty much every day. Looks like we won't get it back until next week.
Picked up the car this afternoon. Apparently there's no paperwork because it's an insurance job. They told me that they hadn't worked up the total yet, but that it was around $700-$800.
That's an expensive windshield.
Well crap. My daughter drove to White Castle, we hit the drive through, and she didn't wait for the change. I had her pull around so I could go in and retrieve it. She shut the car off and when I came back out she went to restart it and it sort of coughed, died, and wouldn't restart. I'm thinking it has something to do with the rain since it's been dry for a while and there haven't been any problems. My wife came and got us so I'll have to go over and figure it out in the morning. In the rain of course.
Got spark but no fuel. When I jump the fuel pump fuse, the pump starts running but it still won't start. I'm guessing that means that either the crank sensor has failed or the ECU failed. But I'm suspecting the ckp sensor.
Oh, actually I think they might use a sensor in the distributor on the turbo cars, not a crank sensor. But whatever, same function.
The ECU won't pull down the fuel pump (or system) relay without a Hall sensor signal (which is coming from the distr. on Turbos). If you have spark, perhaps the sensor signal isn't getting to the ECU via the ignition control module, which is at the LH fender, 7- or 8-pin connector, gray/black or all black, by the APC. I suppose it's possible that moisture could be an issue.
The Hall sensor triggers the plugs, so it sounds like it's working.
If the sensor signal is making it to the ECU (RH footwell, behind carpet), AND you have jumped both the system and fuel pump relays (adjacent to ECU), and it still doesn't run, then I'd suspect the ECU. The mosfet drivers for the injectors are known to die in MY89, so maybe the same thing has happened to your '90. The one time I experienced this failure, the car started, ran for a minute, and died. Super edge case, but if someone removed the EGR system [if it had one; not all did], they may have put an '89 ECU in.
In reply to procainestart :
I found this troubleshooting chart:
So it does sound like it uses that sensor to trigger spark as well as to feed the ECU. I verified that I have spark on all four terminals on the distributor, so I can assume that the hall effect sensor is operational. I'm assuming that by 1990, I no longer have an "early 16v", so there probably isn't an amplifier to worry about.
I get a slight wiggle on the tach needle when it starts to crank and then the tach stays flat. But according to that diagram that may not mean anything.
So now, I need to check pin 1 on the LH for the tach signal. If the tach signal is present, then I think you're right about the ECU. I can also check the fuel injectors to make sure they're not pulsing, but I would assume that if the problem was the overboost switch or the fuel pump relay, the car would start with the fuel pump hotwired on. But whatever is happening, even with the fuel pump pressurizing the system, it still won't start. I suppose it is also possible that the wire from the ignition control module or the ignition control module itself could be bad and not sending a signal to the ECU as well.
In reply to wae :
If it won't start with the fuel system pressurized, you're probably not getting power to the injectors.
That.
Specifically POWER to the injectors. The computer grounds the injectors, power is a different department. With no power you get nothin', times nothin', carry the nothin'...
Not sure if SAAB hardwired the injector power to ignition, or if they go through a main relay.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
They use one relay that powers the ECU and the injectors (and some other injection-related things) and a second that powers the fuel pump. I don't know if the fuel pump relay is working or not, but the check engine light comes on when the car is powered up as part of the light test process and that's the ECU sending that signal. Not a definitive test, but it does make me think that the ignition relay is probably operating.
wae said:In reply to procainestart :
I'm assuming that by 1990, I no longer have an "early 16v", so there probably isn't an amplifier to worry about.
Yup, no amplifier in your '90.
wae said:...but I would assume that if the problem was the overboost switch or the fuel pump relay, the car would start with the fuel pump hotwired on.
No overboost switch in your LH 2.4 car: Saab used the AMM voltage to determine an overboost condition. Only LH 2.2 cars had the overboost switch.
BTW, injector grounds are on top of the engine, toward the front, at the hoist eyelet.
This page may help you cut to the chase more quickly: https://townsendimports.com/Web/engine_folder/nostart24.htm.
EDIT: I assume you've been looking at the fault diagnostics stuff in the manual. In the Bentley version, they've separated the injection codes on a separate page.
Walking through all of the troubleshooting steps, everything works except the ECU so it looks like that's the problem. Off to go find a new 0280000585!
Looks like that 92 vert is still in Dayton, though I don't know if the ECU is the same.
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