In reply to Powar :
I am getting a ton of satisfaction from taking these non-repairable parts and repairing them. eBay pricing for one of the interior light switches is about $25-$30. My total time investment in that was about 15 minutes, if that, and zero dollars in materials. It looks like the dash switches are similarly-constructed so should I run in to any problems with them, making them all new again shouldn't be a problem!
In reply to wae :
I feel the same way. I have revived many switches and the like by carefully taking them apart, cleaning, and putting it back together. Saved myself $800 for my GTV6 by cleaning up the starter instead of buying a new one.
$71 later at the county courthouse, the Commonwealth officially recognizes me as the owner and has given me permission to drive it on public roads in the form of a license plate. I've got to help my sister out with her CR-V tonight, but hopefully we can get the oil changed on Wednesday and take it for a shakedown cruise.
I went through the trouble of getting the car to flash its codes on the gauge cluster and it told me that the MAF wasn't sending good signal. Which I pretty much figured was the problem - if you're really gentle with the throttle, you can keep it moving, but it's prone to bogging out and stalling. Instead of reading the codes, though, I could have just looked. It was unplugged. So I plugged it back in and drove it around the block. The brakes are a bit heavy - it feels like the Neon does with no power assist on the brakes - and that could have something to do with the ABS light being on. But it starts and drives, so that's a big improvement! The 3 speed transmission really takes the fun out of the turbo, though.
That weird problem with a couple of the gauge cluster lights being dimly on all the time is also back. It went away for a while, but it's doing it again and I'm not sure what's up. I think I may try pulling the fuses one by one until they go out and then I can look at whatever is on that circuit.
I definitely screwed something up while trying to jump the wrong pump. If I pull the abs relay out - the one I was jumping thinking stupidly that it was the fuel pump - those lights go out. Poop.
Sorry to hear about the ABS.
The aftermarket interior switches all suck, so, yeah, rehabbing what you have is good, and satisfying.
The turbo wastegate can drift from spec over time. Adjusting it will make the car more responsive. Bentley manual should have details on adjusting. Also, if the needle isn't going to the top of the orange on the gage when you're matting the pedal (except when in 1st gear), and you've got premium fuel, then there's a decent chance that boost is leaking somewhere; vacuum lines are a common culprit, and check the clamps on everything from the turbo to the throttle. A 7mm nut driver is your best friend when it comes to underhood hose clamps. :)
wae said:I went through the trouble of getting the car to flash its codes on the gauge cluster and it told me that the MAF wasn't sending good signal. Which I pretty much figured was the problem - if you're really gentle with the throttle, you can keep it moving, but it's prone to bogging out and stalling. Instead of reading the codes, though, I could have just looked. It was unplugged. So I plugged it back in and drove it around the block. The brakes are a bit heavy - it feels like the Neon does with no power assist on the brakes - and that could have something to do with the ABS light being on. But it starts and drives, so that's a big improvement! The 3 speed transmission really takes the fun out of the turbo, though.
That weird problem with a couple of the gauge cluster lights being dimly on all the time is also back. It went away for a while, but it's doing it again and I'm not sure what's up. I think I may try pulling the fuses one by one until they go out and then I can look at whatever is on that circuit.
You probably already know about the knob on the instrument cluster to adjust instrument brightness independent of the rest of the dash lights? It's the knob on the right of the speedometer. I am assuming that SAAB used this for the full run of cars, but my '85 has this and I think the '89 I owned had it too.
If your car has it, turn the knob clockwise and be prepared to be underwhelmed by the maximum brightness.
*edit*
Wait, the dash lights are on all the time? When the car is off? That's weird and I can't help you.
procainestart said:Sorry to hear about the ABS.
The aftermarket interior switches all suck, so, yeah, rehabbing what you have is good, and satisfying.
The turbo wastegate can drift from spec over time. Adjusting it will make the car more responsive. Bentley manual should have details on adjusting. Also, if the needle isn't going to the top of the orange on the gage when you're matting the pedal (except when in 1st gear), and you've got premium fuel, then there's a decent chance that boost is leaking somewhere; vacuum lines are a common culprit, and check the clamps on everything from the turbo to the throttle. A 7mm nut driver is your best friend when it comes to underhood hose clamps. :)
Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked to find that 33 year old rubber is not up to the task any more. Once I have the brake thing sorted out and we do the tune-up work on it, I was going to hook it up to my smoke machine to go looking for leaks in the charge pipes and the vacuum lines. Good to know about the wastegate adjustment. I will look that up and be ready to adjust. I also fully intend to take the APC apart and fiddle with that a little bit as well to get a bit more boostage out of it!
But not until I can stop the thing.
Mezzanine said:wae said:I went through the trouble of getting the car to flash its codes on the gauge cluster and it told me that the MAF wasn't sending good signal. Which I pretty much figured was the problem - if you're really gentle with the throttle, you can keep it moving, but it's prone to bogging out and stalling. Instead of reading the codes, though, I could have just looked. It was unplugged. So I plugged it back in and drove it around the block. The brakes are a bit heavy - it feels like the Neon does with no power assist on the brakes - and that could have something to do with the ABS light being on. But it starts and drives, so that's a big improvement! The 3 speed transmission really takes the fun out of the turbo, though.
That weird problem with a couple of the gauge cluster lights being dimly on all the time is also back. It went away for a while, but it's doing it again and I'm not sure what's up. I think I may try pulling the fuses one by one until they go out and then I can look at whatever is on that circuit.
You probably already know about the knob on the instrument cluster to adjust instrument brightness independent of the rest of the dash lights? It's the knob on the right of the speedometer. I am assuming that SAAB used this for the full run of cars, but my '85 has this and I think the '89 I owned had it too.
If your car has it, turn the knob clockwise and be prepared to be underwhelmed by the maximum brightness.
*edit*
Wait, the dash lights are on all the time? When the car is off? That's weird and I can't help you.
hehe, yeah. It's definitely an artifact of my jumping the abs pump instead of the fuel pump. I managed to fry something because when I pull the relay, the lights go out all the way when the car's off like they should.
You're right about the dash lights, though. I'm not sure how hard it is to get the gauge cluster out, but I'm thinking that some LEDs are in its future.
I went over and did a little troubleshooting this morning. The good news is that I can jump the relay and make the pump run and I get a good brake pedal. So, I probably haven't ruined the pump.
One weird thing is that the wiring diagram does not reflect reality. The various colors of wires are all there but they're in different pins on the relay than what the diagram says.
There are two diodes in the abs system and if I'm testing them correctly (and assuming the diode test feature on the multimeter works) then they're both shorted. That would probably explain why there's voltage going to the gauge cluster when the car is off.
I'm going to try to source new diodes and see if that gets things working again.
wae said:Mezzanine said:wae said:I went through the trouble of getting the car to flash its codes on the gauge cluster and it told me that the MAF wasn't sending good signal. Which I pretty much figured was the problem - if you're really gentle with the throttle, you can keep it moving, but it's prone to bogging out and stalling. Instead of reading the codes, though, I could have just looked. It was unplugged. So I plugged it back in and drove it around the block. The brakes are a bit heavy - it feels like the Neon does with no power assist on the brakes - and that could have something to do with the ABS light being on. But it starts and drives, so that's a big improvement! The 3 speed transmission really takes the fun out of the turbo, though.
That weird problem with a couple of the gauge cluster lights being dimly on all the time is also back. It went away for a while, but it's doing it again and I'm not sure what's up. I think I may try pulling the fuses one by one until they go out and then I can look at whatever is on that circuit.
You probably already know about the knob on the instrument cluster to adjust instrument brightness independent of the rest of the dash lights? It's the knob on the right of the speedometer. I am assuming that SAAB used this for the full run of cars, but my '85 has this and I think the '89 I owned had it too.
If your car has it, turn the knob clockwise and be prepared to be underwhelmed by the maximum brightness.
*edit*
Wait, the dash lights are on all the time? When the car is off? That's weird and I can't help you.
hehe, yeah. It's definitely an artifact of my jumping the abs pump instead of the fuel pump. I managed to fry something because when I pull the relay, the lights go out all the way when the car's off like they should.
You're right about the dash lights, though. I'm not sure how hard it is to get the gauge cluster out, but I'm thinking that some LEDs are in its future.
European cars of the era had deliberately "dim" gauge lighting. Saves your night vision, as your peripheral vision is more sensitive to light than your center vision. Bright things in your peripheral kill your center vision since your eyes only have one iris each.
I used to hate the dim lights, until I understood the why, and grew to appreciate it. Teh S60R has crazy bright dash lights, I have them turned most of the way down.
In reply to wae :
Just for posterity, here's the weirdness in the wiring diagram.
I'm looking specifically at 293 which is the ABS Pump Relay. According to that, pin #30 should a thicker red wire coming in from one of the 30A fuses, fed directly from the battery. Pin #86 should be a thinner red & white wire coming from the 10A fuse which should be fed from the ignition relay. Pin 85 should be two blue wires and Pin 87 should be a blue and a thick yellow. Here's the backside of the relay socket though:
Now the relay pins are such that 30 and 87 are opposite each other and 86 and 85 are opposite each other. But if you look at the picture, the white/red wire is in the socket that the diagram says should be for 30. According to my multimeter, the pump is only drawing about 5 or 6 amps, so I guess that 10amp fuse is okay, but I'm tremendously confused as to how and why that is pinned up the way it is. And how it actually works. But that's how it came to me and I can't figure out how anyone would have re-pinned that, so I guess it's supposed to be that way. But damn, that's weird.
I ordered up the diodes from an eBay seller located in Ohio and they're on their way via USPS, so hopefully I'll see them early this week and can give it a try.
Check the relay. Not all cube type relays have 85 and 86 opposite each other. BMW uses the other type for some things, as I had discovered in a let-the-smoke-out way.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I didn't have a picture on my phone but I did. In fact, I was so incredulous of the wiring diagram that I physically verified that there was absolutely no way that it could be plugged in to the socket in any other orientation. After checking the numbers on the body of the relay itself, I hooked it up to a battery and a multimeter to verify that what they marked on the relay as 85 & 86, when connected to battery voltage, closed the circuit between what was marked as 87 and 30.
Of course, that does pre-suppose that the relay that came with the car was the right relay...
....and it looks like that might not be the correct relay after all. I found an ebay auction for that part number (9522822) and when I zoom in on the pictures of the relay, the blades are numbered such that they are not in the same configuration as the one in the car. Son of a....
Apparently this configuration is a bit hard to find. It looks like I can special-order one from O'Reilly. For a mere $198.57.
I've got a handful of relays that I've liberated from other various vehicles over the years so I'll go check those real fast. But I'm starting to think that the winning move here might be to just de-pin and re-pin the relay socket so that a normal relay - like the one I already have - will fit there. I can't imagine what the downside would be to that, but on the other hand Saab surely had a really good reason for having a different style of relay for that function. Didn't they?
Went through my used electrical parts stash, and amazingly enough had some Saab-branded relays. Unfortunately, it appears they are a standard Bosch pinout. However, if you want an oversized headlight relay as a backup, I can set it aside.
They probably had some good reason, just like why BMW used that style of relay for the air pump on E46s. Maybe they can handle high current better?
I'm all for repinning the fuse box so you can use a normal relay. I see no reason why not to.
I assume the Saab p/n isn't on the relay and it's a Bosch -- either way, what's the p/n? I parted out an ABS car years ago, may have one in my stash. It's yours for $karma if I've got one.
EDIT: Fished my wish. It's an ATE, 92k miles, been sitting in a basement waiting for you to F yours up for the past 15 years or so. ;-) P/M me and I'll drop it in the mail.
In reply to procainestart :
Thanks! I've sent you a message, let me know if it didn't go through.
I went ahead and wired in the new diodes and then temporarily re-pinned the relay socket so that the generic relay that I have should work for the ABS system until I can put the correct relay in place. Still no joy. The ABS light is on solid and when I jump the terminal that is supposed to make it flash to show me the codes, it just stays on solid still. Despite the relay and the diodes being in the right place, it's not running the brake pump, either.
I was playing around with the key a little and found that there's a little spot between the "garage" and "run" settings where the pump will come on. So I think that at least part of my problem is that the ignition switch still isn't 100% right. I really didn't want to have to spend $140 on the thing, but I might be stuck doing that. I'll take it apart again and try to figure out why it's not working still, but in the meantime I'm going to go check it while it's in the car to see if I can jump that circuit and if that will bring the ABS system to life and run the brake pump when the car is in the run position.
Weirder and weirder... In the run position, all of the terminals on the switch have power except for S and 50. I've got to look up what S is for but 50 is the starter. That sort of matches what the manual says it should be. S is supposed to always have power for the seat belt and key-in-the ignition warnings.
In the little spot between "garage" and "run", all terminals that have power in run are powered except 15. But that's when the brake fluid light comes on and the pump starts running until it reaches pressure. So when X and 54 have power but 15 doesn't, the brake pump runs. Weird.
I may have missed it earlier, but did you ever completely bypass the ignition switch?
The switch must be busticated if, in Run, you have power at X and 54 but not 15. Meanwhile, it looks like 15 powers the ABS and fluid-level warning lights. Electronics isn't my strong suit, but if the current through the ABS light is what keeps the pump from running, that'd be why it only does when 15 is dead at the ignition switch.
Relay is boxed up, have had a hectic week, will get it in the mail this weekend.
Spent some time this morning looking at the wiring diagrams and it still isn't making sense to me.
One of the tests I did last night was to bypass the ignition switch again and ensure that there was power to +X, +15, and +54. I didn't also include +S because that is supposed to only be for the key and seatbelt warnings. According to the FSM, that should represent the key in the "drive" position:
I also verified that when the key is turned to "drive", I get battery voltage on pins 15, 54, and X at the switch. I didn't attempt a voltage drop test on those, but everything behaves the same way when I have the wires clamped together with a hemostat, so I'm assuming that the switch is working okay there.
When I do that, I get the fuel sender tickling and the low fuel light on, the coolant temp needle moves a bit, and the lights come on for Check Engine, oil level, charging, parking brake, and ABS. The Brake Fluid light doesn't come on and the pump doesn't run, even though the pedal is hard as a rock.
If I either pull the +15 wire from the clamped mess or turn the key partway between "Parked" and "Drive", the cluster is still and dark except for the charge light and the Brake Fluid light. The pump will run and will then shut itself off. If I leave it like that and pump the brakes a few times, the pump will kick back on and then turn itself off. So it seems like the power supply and the relay feeding the brake pump is working correctly at that point and the pressure switch is working correctly. But, if you look at the wiring diagram, the brake fluid light - and the pressure switch - should be getting their power from the +15 circuit which is not showing any voltage at the ignition switch:
#294 is the pressure switch and #293 is the relay for the pump motor. The control circuit pin 86 comes from +54 off the ignition switch and is grounded through the pressure switch which should be getting it's +12 through the Brake Fluid light off of +15.
This is where my lack of understanding about how electrons move about the cabin makes me start to stare out the window aimlessly and drool a bit. If +15 goes straight from the ignition switch to the gauge cluster - which it appears to do - then that light shouldn't be on when +15 is unplugged.
You can see 47F in that diagram off on the mid-right. The path goes through the ignition switch to fuse #22 then through a distribution terminal and then to the bulb. But it also goes to the parking brake bulb and that isn't lit.
So that means that "something" is getting voltage to the pressure switch, pump relay, and/or the bulb when +15 is disconnected, but when +15 is connected, that voltage is getting interrupted somewhere.
I have absolutely no idea how or if this system worked before I started monkeying with it. All I did to the system was bridge the relay between ports 86 and 87 which would have run the pump on the 10amp +54 circuit instead of the 30 amp feed direct from the battery while bypassing the pressure switch. When I got it, it had the wrong relay installed in the socket which would have meant that the pump was getting its +12 from the 10amp fuse fed by +54 from the ignition switch while the control coil was getting its +12 from the 30 amp fuse fed by the constant +12 from the battery. That would have meant that if the ABS computer or the pressure switch could provide a path to ground with the ignition off, the control coil would be constantly energized. And before I re-pinned the connector to accommodate the standard Bosch relay pinout and soldered in new diodes it would click when the battery was hooked up with the ignition turned off. And I'd get the really dim gauge lights.
With the new diodes and the re-pin of the socket, though, those lights are out completely with the ignition off.
The wiring diagram shows two diodes in the gauge cluster setup, though, and I'm wondering if those should be tested next. One is between the Brake Fluid light and the charge light and another is between the charge light and the alternator grounding point. I am also suspicious of the ABS computer itself. I cannot get it to flash any trouble codes for me despite the light being on, and every story I see on the internet about that problem is fixed with a new ABS computer. But if there's something janky with the wiring that cooked the ABS computer, I'd really rather not just fry another one.
In reply to procainestart :
Yep, totally bypassed the ignition switch to try to rule it out. Best I can figure is that the switch has a little bit of a dead spot in it transitioning from "Park" to "Drive" on +15, but when the switch is solidly in "Park", it has power to +X only and in "Drive" it has power to +X, +15, and +54 like it should.
I appreciate the relay! It's easy enough to re-pin the connector, so I figured I could jumpstart my troubleshooting and then put it all back the way it's supposed to be later on.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how/why 47Q being grounded would cause 47F to be not grounded.
Oh.... hmm.... That's interesting.... I wonder if someone switched the two relays at some point. I didn't look at the 292 relay at all and that's the one that is supposed to activate the ABS system generally. If that's supposed to be a regular Bosch-style relay and it's the funky one instead, maybe it's doing something weird. Guess I need to go look at that one just in case.
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