Serious question, frenchyd. Will a $300 junkyard v12 survive a wfo road race weekend as is? No mods at all, just throw it in and run? Not that it’d be done that way, just courios.
Serious question, frenchyd. Will a $300 junkyard v12 survive a wfo road race weekend as is? No mods at all, just throw it in and run? Not that it’d be done that way, just courios.
frenchyd said:dyintorace (Forum Supporter) said:SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:My suggestion...
Since neither of you is gonna play in the other's sandbox, I suggest you both have to do both. Frenchy will build a $2000 Challenge car and bring it to Gainesville, then both cars will compete on the road course of Frenchy's choice.
Transport costs will be covered by donations from forum members. I will start by contributing $100.
I'll add $100, so now we're at $200.
Only if we can also race at someplace like Daytona . A track where real top speed matters. Where you can hold it WFO ( wide flat open for the censors. ) for a decent interval.
I believe I suggested you pick the track. But neither you nor Stampie has bought into that idea yet.
In reply to frenchyd :
...however, I didn't miss the fact that you keep upping the ante.
First it was engines only. Then it was road racing and a whole car. Now it's only sustained high speed track.
Come on, Frenchy! I already said I was putting my bet on you, AND came up with a way to overcome your issue about transport costs. Don't let me down.
This thread needs more BBC jokes and less moving the goal posts.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Very true!
frenchyd said:Stampie (FS) said:In reply to yupididit :
You gonna pay me for my hours in it? Actually Frenchy might be onto something. Trans mounts would be the same. Just motor mounts and ;maybe radiator to swap to the better engine.
Are you saying that a big block Chevy runs hotter than that V12 with all those pistons? Fair enough I'll take out the more efficient Jaguar radiator and put in an aluminum one I got with mine.
I'm saying my engine will make more power and therefore more heat than your cute little aluminum play toy.
thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) said:This thread needs more BBC jokes and less moving the goal posts.
They're there, you're just not paying attention.
Some of my thoughts on the one vehicle two engines thing.
Obviously there'll be difference in track conditions if we're running on separate days. Then there's the factor of who gets the fresh tires or do we run fresh tires for each engine? All that said a BBC is better than Frechy's 12 anyway.
The point of really being able to run WFO is valid. Would an SCCA test and tune allow us to really push them to the limits?
I'll tentatively agree to two engines one vehicle but I reserve the right to build my own XJS if I decide to. $1000 limit on engine? Trans and car are unlimited? Frenchy you brought up the carb issue for you, do you want to make intake and fuel management unlimited?
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
I'm smart enough to recognize the advantage of EFI. I may not have mastered it. But it sure doesn't mean carbs are better than EFI.
Since the V12 was designed from the start to use EFI. Yes Jaguar's original vender failed to provide what was promised and carbs were a last second afterthought But I know I'm handicapping it with cabs but it's all I know.
I know the How to improve the current fuel injection I just don't know how to make The mega squirt work with the Jaguar.
With a $1000 to spend on an engine that already runs I can buy the few pieces very cheaply ( less than $100.). to increase the power by 30-40% . I start out with a compression ratio of 11.5-1 yes stock!
The tiny lift and duration on the stock camshafts really limit power but any cam grinder ( and I have one only 15 miles from home) can give me reasonable lift and duration to take advantage of it. That will cost me $300. Since the factory tested the stock valve springs to 8300 rpm before they floated I'm not worried about that.
So let's put a pin in limits OK?
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
Sure I welcome you to build your own car. Ask and I'll tell you what to look for, what to avoid. How to modify them cheaply. Where to cut corners what not to do.
Or if you'd like let you do all that yourself and meet on the track. Like Haffaker and Group 44 did.
SCCA's Track Night the cars are on the track in groups of similar performance. So we'll be on track at the same time. But if we have to conform to rollbar rules why not find a track and do an actual race?
In reply to frenchyd :
I'll send you my efi and tuning books. I've had them for years but only really benefited from them when I had a megasquirt on my Conquest. Now my Porsche has megasquirt and autotune, I don't really need the books. Plus their forums and tech page are super helpful if your Google-fu is good. If you decide to go the efi route.
03Panther said:Serious question, frenchyd. Will a $300 junkyard v12 survive a wfo road race weekend as is? No mods at all, just throw it in and run? Not that it’d be done that way, just courios.
The engine is capable if the oil is properly controlled. the mods are easy enough. Pretty well known. ( at least to us racers). Stone stock the power falls off around 5500 But reground camshafts solve that. It's cheap enough to get them reground. Every cam grinder has the required masters. I've got a pair of Isky XM2's someplace around here. They raise power to 7000
The Later HE's are stock with 11.5-1 compression hurt only because the timing is retarded. Easy enough to deal with.
frenchyd said:03Panther said:Serious question, frenchyd. Will a $300 junkyard v12 survive a wfo road race weekend as is? No mods at all, just throw it in and run? Not that it’d be done that way, just courios.
The engine is capable if the oil is properly controlled. the mods are easy enough. Pretty well known. ( at least to us racers). Stone stock the power falls off around 5500 But reground camshafts solve that. It's cheap enough to get them reground. Every cam grinder has the required masters. I've got a pair of Isky XM2's someplace around here. They raise power to 7000
The Later HE's are stock with 11.5-1 compression hurt only because the timing is retarded. Easy enough to deal with.
That's pretty cool. I wasn't asking about power levels, just survival with no mods. Sounds like it pretty well would. Impressive.
frenchyd PowerDork
7/8/20 10:57 p.m.
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
I'm smart enough to recognize the advantage of EFI. I may not have mastered it. But it sure doesn't mean carbs are better than EFI.
Frenchyd, I'm like you on the efi. I can manage stock repairs, but to start modifying stuff with efi, I know carbs better. As a engine builder, I make a pretty good fabricator... 
03Panther said:frenchyd said:03Panther said:In reply to frenchyd :
"made just short of 500 horsepower one a budget of chump car budget of $500. With E85 and a pair of regrind camshafts I'm pretty sure I can make the extra 100+ horsepower. "
That's wicked impressive! So you did make the 500 to 600 goal I asked about on a budget! That would would have been an answer I understood. Instead of paragraphs of how expensive checks are and something about grannies caddy
I'm a Luddite. it would be simple if I could cut and paste stuff like all you younger people do. Then I could Show you that in the early 2000's I built a slightly less than 500 horsepower V12 V12 on the $500 Chump Car budget. Legitimately
( the post about V12 mods)
I am being dead serious. I completely believe you. You have enough knowledge to have the cred. No snide comments here.
Just pointing out that answering with that cool of an accomplishment would have been better than paragraphs of non relevant info.
No one here is stating a changing hp range. Just discussing available high hp at less cost than a jag v12
building a 500 hp anything for a $500 class was playing fast and loose with the rules even almost 20 years ago... don’t think a jag could do it today for a legitimate $500. Might be wrong, but again, I’d have to be shown... hey you showed my statement of 500 to 600 fairly cheaply could be done with a jag. Again great job there!
sorry for bringing this back up but I wanted to answer your question and got side tracked.
I didn't do it myself. A friend wanted to do it and he came to me because I had them and was a racer.
The how is basic, A pair of $35 ea used* Saab T2's tucked under the front fenders. the first 3 years of XJS Jaguars had a 7.8-1 compression so boost didn't burn valves or holes in pistons. It also had the biggest injectors ever put in aV12. Every one since has smaller and smaller injectors. On top of that they had a control on the ECU that adjusted the fuel mixture. From rich to lean.
Add a FMU ( fuel management unit ) a simple $85 device that reads boost and adds fuel.
I also had a pair of reground camshafts that I cheated and swaped with the stock ones. I didn't think Chumpcar could tell.
A few other minor changes and it works.
* Testing a used Turbo is simple. Take a magic marker or Sharpie and mark on blade. Give it a good spin and mark where it stops. Do that several times and as long as it stops randomly it's OK. Go on to the next one if it stops in the same spot.
03Panther said:frenchyd said:03Panther said:Serious question, frenchyd. Will a $300 junkyard v12 survive a wfo road race weekend as is? No mods at all, just throw it in and run? Not that it’d be done that way, just courios.
The engine is capable if the oil is properly controlled. the mods are easy enough. Pretty well known. ( at least to us racers). Stone stock the power falls off around 5500 But reground camshafts solve that. It's cheap enough to get them reground. Every cam grinder has the required masters. I've got a pair of Isky XM2's someplace around here. They raise power to 7000
The Later HE's are stock with 11.5-1 compression hurt only because the timing is retarded. Easy enough to deal with.
That's pretty cool. I wasn't asking about power levels, just survival with no mods. Sounds like it pretty well would. Impressive.
I didn't answer that completely enough. The real answer is how sticky are the tires? Long wearing, harder tires don't throw the oil around under cornering or braking that much. Race tires even some TW 200 tires can throw oil up into the timing cover or cylinder walls and starve the pickup beyond what the modifications can deal with. Of course it will do the same to a much greater degree on a Chevy. Even the Corvette pan. Or aftermarket pans.
That's why all serious racers go to dry sump.
The Jaguar will survive because the crankshaft is forged EN 40 steel that is hardened post forging. Bearings will be worn at the end of the weekend but all you need to do is roll the oil ones out and slide a new set in.
I did that for a year after every race until I fabricated a dry sump system and solved that problem.
Chevy doesn't have that. Most are castings and a casting starts out relatively weaker than a forging. Plus only the real race grade crankshafts are made with the best quality steel and then hardened.
Besides, Chevies are much smaller crankshaft's relative to their stroke. Chevy has a 3&1/2 inch stroke. With a 2.10 journal. Compared to Jaguar's 2&3/4 but it's journal is 2:30 less stress bigger size. And it's main is 3 inches.
Put it another way. A Chevy 350 crankshaft weighs about 22 pounds.
A Jaguar V12 crankshaft weighs 78 pounds.
In reply to frenchyd :
I like your check for turbos. I've only messed with diesel turbos, but same/same. I just brought 'em to my diesel mechanic friend in VA. - Dave and his partner Spark Plug at 17 Machine. Spark Plug is a wizard at turbo rebuilds!
In reply to 03Panther :
I've said how much I've raced with guys who spend more on partying at one race than I do a whole season, on everything.
I can't afford to hire others. I've had to figure things out myself or have a buddy show me.
And compromise. Little T2's are too small for the V12 but I couldn't find T3's in junkyards back then. Maybe that's a good thing. It never blew up in spite of how Kludged it was. In fact I saw it at a car show/event a few years ago still smoking the tires.
Stampie (FS) said:thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) said:This thread needs more BBC jokes and less moving the goal posts.
They're there, you're just not paying attention.
frenchyd said:In reply to Stampie (FS) :
I'm smart enough to recognize the advantage of EFI. I may not have mastered it. But it sure doesn't mean carbs are better than EFI.
Since the V12 was designed from the start to use EFI. Yes Jaguar's original vender failed to provide what was promised and carbs were a last second afterthought But I know I'm handicapping it with cabs but it's all I know.
I know the How to improve the current fuel injection I just don't know how to make The mega squirt work with the Jaguar.
With a $1000 to spend on an engine that already runs I can buy the few pieces very cheaply ( less than $100.). to increase the power by 30-40% . I start out with a compression ratio of 11.5-1 yes stock!
The tiny lift and duration on the stock camshafts really limit power but any cam grinder ( and I have one only 15 miles from home) can give me reasonable lift and duration to take advantage of it. That will cost me $300. Since the factory tested the stock valve springs to 8300 rpm before they floated I'm not worried about that.So let's put a pin in limits OK?
I translate that as Jaguar engineers are so bad that they lucked up and designed an engine that was good despite their ineptitude but you can unlock what they left behind for a few hundred dollars. No limits? I bring a $10000 BBC and it's good?
I'll see if I can come up with a rule set tonight.
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
My personal preference is a $300 limit for the engine. I'll take the 20 horsepower hit for using carbs. I'll provide the car.
First event a high speed track like Elkhart Lake or Daytona.
how long do you think it will take to install your engine?
In reply to frenchyd :
Are you also agreeing to do the $2000 Challenge?
Stampie (FS) said:frenchyd said:In reply to Stampie (FS) :
I'm smart enough to recognize the advantage of EFI. I may not have mastered it. But it sure doesn't mean carbs are better than EFI.
Since the V12 was designed from the start to use EFI. Yes Jaguar's original vender failed to provide what was promised and carbs were a last second afterthought But I know I'm handicapping it with cabs but it's all I know.
I know the How to improve the current fuel injection I just don't know how to make The mega squirt work with the Jaguar.
With a $1000 to spend on an engine that already runs I can buy the few pieces very cheaply ( less than $100.). to increase the power by 30-40% . I start out with a compression ratio of 11.5-1 yes stock!
The tiny lift and duration on the stock camshafts really limit power but any cam grinder ( and I have one only 15 miles from home) can give me reasonable lift and duration to take advantage of it. That will cost me $300. Since the factory tested the stock valve springs to 8300 rpm before they floated I'm not worried about that.So let's put a pin in limits OK?
I translate that as Jaguar engineers are so bad that they lucked up and designed an engine that was good despite their ineptitude but you can unlock what they left behind for a few hundred dollars. No limits? I bring a $10000 BBC and it's good?
No the Jaguar engineers designed the engine for their market. Which is big luxurious sedans. They did so on a budget that was less than GM's CEO's salary for two weeks is impressive. The fact that others were able to modify the engine to win important international races shows it's basic soundness.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to frenchyd :
Are you also agreeing to do the $2000 Challenge?
Not if I have to pay the costs involved in the round trip. But if that can be deferred, sure. To make it fair we can select one of the " Pro" drivers to do all the testing.
Being a gentleman I'll let Tempie put his engine in first.
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