Is Wayne Carini Joking?

Rupert wrote: In reply to racerdave600:Funny, Datsun/Nissan did a Zcar restoration project a few years ago. They built almost new cars complete with warranty, as I recall. They couldn't sell them at what $25K+/-. Obviously as you said, I live in a different world than the $100K Zcar restorer you mentioned. But I can't for the life of me see if a factory restoration with warranty will not sell at $25K. Why someone would ever think a non-factory restore would sell for over $100K.

Of course the factory 240Z rebuilds were what, in 1997. Back then $5k to $8k would buy a really nice car. Those days are long gone. I would also argue that the rebuild cars were a #2 driver quality car, not a #1. The few I've seen are nice, but not perfect.

Agreed. The rebuild cars weren't #1. Nor were the originals when they were first built either. I and several of my friends bought new ones in '70, '71, & '72 models. They were/are great cars. But they weren't a #1 as they are judged on the show circuit.

I've never seen an off the shelf new car of any brand that I would consider a show #1. (Perfect) And if I did, I wouldn't want it. It would only take me a very short while to make a #2 driver out of it.

I don't believe in storing cars in plastic bags for a sale later. Or diamonds or gold either for that matter.

I'm with you there. I never want a car I can't drive, or am afraid if I pull it out of the garage it would lose most of it's value. My rule is, if it can't take a cone mark or go on a race track, I don't want it. Well, I may want it, but others may cringe if I did that.

I'll agree. I like to see # 1's at car shows, but then I always walk away asking "what do you do with it"? Sure there are some cars that belong in museums, but I have even seen a silver arrow Mercedes do some laps at Limerock.

maj75 wrote: I don't know if he is a good guy or not, but I hate his show. I hold him responsible for the fad of hauling crap out of a barn and claiming that it is something special because it is an "untouched original." I consider an unrestored piece of junk to be worth restored value - restoration cost. He just seems to lazy or cheap to do the restoration (or even bothering to clean off the cobwebs) and passes the cost of that onto the next owner.

Sorry, but I heartily disagree, as an ex-restorer myself working in a vintage car restoration shop. Old stuff is only original once. Once you've taken it apart abd rebuilt everything, it's not the same car. Especially with old race cars where every part of it tells a story.

I find your opinion to be arrogant and judgemental and flat out jackassish.

In reply to Chris_V:

I agree to a point. Yeah it's only original once, but some cars need to be restored in order to see the cars beauty. I have restored a few cars myself and have maintained many.

If the car is a survivor, that's great, but a lot of cars are worth less if they are unrestored.

A lot of race cars disappear. My uncle who restored Miller lndy cars made a couple cars out of nothing. Sometimes all they had was a chassis and maybe a drivetrain.

Untouched originals are not something new with Wayne Carini. There has always been an appeal for cars that have been stored out of the weather for decades.

I think the formula is to first buy a certain car and then write about how its going to be the next big thing, especially if you're involved some how in the restoration or auction business. Create a frenzy and then sell your car for a profit. The rag is as guilty of this as anybody. I think of their shameless promotion of DB7's, Tigers and the Group 44 GT6 particularly.

TR8owner wrote: I think the formula is to first buy a certain car and then write about how its going to be the next big thing, especially if you're involved some how in the restoration or auction business. Create a frenzy and then sell your car for a profit. The rag is as guilty of this as anybody. I think of their shameless promotion of DB7's, Tigers and the Group 44 GT6 particularly.

"A lot of race cars disappear. My uncle who restored Miller lndy cars made a couple cars out of nothing. Sometimes all they had was a chassis and maybe a drivetrain."

Wasn't there a super rare and wonderful Aston Martin factory team car that was destroyed after the race season ended and was "reconstructed" and sold several times over out of the salvaged components?

I think that there was an article in Car & Driver covering the debacle.

In reply to TeamEvil: How many tens of thousands of Model As are sold that were never built? What about anything called Shelby or Ferrari? Fact is, there are tons of people out there that sell a dream, not an actual car!

Once you leave the original bones whether you call it restoration or updating, your ride is now just another real car wannabe! Especially if your ride has a motor, transmission, etc., etc. that was never installed in the make and model of car as new.

However, we all need to realize race cars are a different breed. Those who race cars change everything any time they think it will give them an advantage. IMHO there is no such thing as an original race car. Those who race haven't a clue what is in what, other than what worked that day. Anyone who spends a ton of money for an "original race car" is literally urinating against the wind.

TeamEvil wrote: Wasn't there a super rare and wonderful Aston Martin factory team car that was destroyed after the race season ended and was "reconstructed" and sold several times over out of the salvaged components?

I don't know the Aston story, but this is certainly true of quite a few old Ferraris. There are even some cases where much of the original car was tossed during "restoration" and then a "replica" was built from the cast off parts that was comprised of much more of the original car than the "real" one. Heck, there was a beautiful period Pininfarina coupe body for a Ferrari that was (if memory serves) for sale last year because the owner replaced it with a reproduction barchetta body. Yes, the chassis was originally fitted with a barchetta body, but it was rebuilt into a coupe in period (and was beautiful). So, the "real" car is just a collection of spindly chassis tubes that nobody ever looks at, draped in brand new reproduction body, interior, everything. These #1 condition cars share much in common with George Washington's axe.

More 1800 craziness

Looks to be a nice example, but nothing special. Not sure if I believe the mileage due to wear on the driver's seat. The tail pipes are wrong for the year. If the color is what it looks to be in the pics, the paint is not original.

There are two 1800E pending at Mecum in Kissimmee. The blue one is a bondo-mobile, the yellow one is apparently solid, but automatic (which takes thousands off the value in the real world). Let's see what those go for...

TR8owner wrote: I think the formula is to first buy a certain car and then write about how its going to be the next big thing, especially if you're involved some how in the restoration or auction business. Create a frenzy and then sell your car for a profit. The rag is as guilty of this as anybody. I think of their shameless promotion of DB7's, Tigers and the Group 44 GT6 particularly.

So we are singlehandedly responsible for the appreciation of Tigers, DB7s? I think you may be giving us too much credit, albeit in a backhanded, nonsensical way.

It couldn't be that we saw cars that were undervalued and decided to act now instead of later (bringing readers along for the ride) .....nah....our only goal is to create an artificial bubble so we can reap millions of dollars in profit. Perhaps we should just quit restoring cars and writing about them...... as we are clearly corrupting the market. We should also quit giving advice on which cars to look for, as this is clearly only done to pad our wallets.

some people......

Wow!! It's time we all take a break here. All of us, me certainly, have our own favorite rides which we want to succeed.

And yes, some of us are trying to make a living talking about rides we know and love. Does that mean we are trying to rip off others? Possibly so, but I really don't think Classic Motorsports or Grassroots Motorsports are in a position to make that kind of a market change.

Let's all go back to why we enjoy our rides. They are special to us. And no, as much as I would love to promote the value of Datsuns, Mazdas, etc. I doubt what I think would really matter in the world. I also doubt that CM or GM are in a position to do insider trading either!

Let's go back to the concept of we love our rides, we hope others love ours and theirs. And whether any of us buy or restore one (1) of any of those rides, has nothing to do with the sell price of any ride we happen to love and/or restore!

In reply to Joe Gearin:

"It couldn't be that we saw cars that were undervalued"

Always amazes me how cars are always being hyped as being undervalued and never overvalued.

+1 to Rupert!

Also, the other day I gave a smiley face and +1 to TR8owner for his post, which had brought the discussion back around to my original reason for starting this thread (i.e., Wayne Carini and the Volvo P1800 story). Like most of the longer threads, this one seemed to wander off topic a bit. Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's just the nature of discussions. Anyway, sometimes it requires a savvy poster or two to bring it back into focus.

Incidentally, my wife and I will be traveling to South Florida for a few days next month to escape the cold New England winter weather. We planned our trip to coincide with the Boca Raton Concours d'Elegance, as we've done for the past several years. Wayne Carini will be the Grand Marshall of this event. If possible l'll strike up a polite conversation with "His Eminence" about the Forbes Life Volvo P1800 affair to maybe gain a bit more insight from his anointed perspective.

In reply to Gary:

What turns me off is the artificial feeding frenzy that develops around certain cars. My buddy just sold his 1966 Porsche 911 for $160 K. Good for him since he only paid $40 K just five years ago. He asked himself if if he had $160 K to spend would he buy his own car and concluded there is no way he would have, thus he sold it. I wonder why 911's or 356's are commanding the numbers they are when something like a Lotus Europa twin cam hasn't budged? I used to own 356's and would describe it now as the VW bug experience at ten times the cost. And $100 K for a Volvo P1800? That's insanity IMHO. Even the Saint's P1800 isn't worth near that much. But I guess you can argue something is "worth" whatever somebody will pay for it.

Some people think the market is bullet proof, but a lot of oil men and real estate agents used to tell us the same thing. I'll bet the insanity will soon be slowing down and the crash will come in seven or eight years when the boomers start thinking about retirement homes and find there is not as strong a market with the generations after them.

Indeed, I believe that's the heart of the issue. Is there a true market out there for these "not so main-stream classics?" Are the people who might be willing to spend big bucks on a Porsche actually willing to spend $100K on a lowly P1800? I've been saying not bloody likely, especially as " the norm," as Carini said. That means not just one anomaly at auction, but ... the norm. That's why I say no way. So if five or ten P1800s sell for $100K in the near future, I will take a trip to Columbus, Ohio and eat some of those crows that have been terrorizing the city. But I doubt I'll have to do that. I look forward to chatting with Wayne in Boca.

The '67 1800S at Gooding I posted about yesterday sold for $77K, and it's not a flawless example by any means.

In reply to VClassics:

I know a guy who has a super clean P1800 that you could probably could have got off him for $25 K, or at least could have until he reads about this jerk off that paid $77 K.

TR8owner wrote: In reply to VClassics: I know a guy who has a super clean P1800 that you could probably could have got off him for $25 K, or at least could have until he reads about this jerk off that paid $77 K.

Again ...

In the fall of 2011, I sold my '67 1800S for $3500. It needed paint and some cosmetics, but it was as rust-free as any car that age can be. The buyer had no problems driving it 2000 miles home. He got a good deal at that price, but he didn't steal it either.

I had a customer who bought a '65 at a thrift shop (someone had donated it) for $5000 in 2005, and I think he paid $1000 too much. It had rough paint and needed quite a bit of work to be a reliable daily driver, which is what he used it for.

Yes, prices have gone up in the past few years, but in the old car circles I inhabit, that $77K auction car might bring $12K, if it's really as represented. If you go to any national level Volvo club meet, you'll see 20 1800s that are nicer than that one, and 19 of them would have been driven there, some of them from thousands of miles away.

If some 1800s bring seven or eight times at auction what's been the going rate in the world I live in, does that fundamentally change the market? Or is it just a few crazy buyers? We'll just have to see, I guess.

In reply to TR8owner:

Early Porsche 911 examples strike me as being exceptionally overvalued.

In our auction coverage we also frequently list cars that the new owners "paid too much". This happens at nearly every auction---- see the E-type at Bonhams /Scottsdale that was covered with contact paper / vinyl. That someone paid over $50K for that car is incredible.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

I do subscribe and read your rag, cover to cover, every issue. Glad I pulled your chain though.

Gary wrote:

TR8owner wrote: In reply to VClassics: I know a guy who has a super clean P1800 that you could probably could have got off him for $25 K, or at least could have until he reads about this jerk off that paid $77 K.

Again ...

But that's the case for everything. This is why I directly blame Barrett Jackson for the ridiculous increase in price for muscle cars.

I remember no more than 17 years ago I could get a '68-'72 Oldsmobile 442 in reasonable shape for $3500. Now? I can't find a descent one under $20k.

Once people start seeing how much a car like theirs sells for, then the price goes up.

Unfortunately the Corvair is starting to hit this trend. I've seen them go to auction and #1 examples are going for $25k-$35k. And this started only a few years ago.