02 subaru legacy brakes

So the brakes on my wagon either suck hairy donkey balls, or are completely inadequate. Or are broken in a way I can't find.

Short version : new pfc pads, premium rotors front and rear. Nothing seized, all appear to be working properly. No leaks.

Friday I trunked a mazda into an accord in a panic stop. No abs, no locked wheels, pedal went damn near the floor, if not all the way. Pedal has always been slightly squishy since we bought the car 7ish years ago. Never did a panic stop since owning, but wheels would lock up and absolutely would actuate in snow and ice.

Anyway, after trunking the pedal was much more squishy, or I was much more paranoid about it.

So tonight we bled brakes thinking maybe it's always had air in it.

Fresh fluid, no air, pedal feels the same. Still won't lock up or activate abs unerring panic stop. Pedal does not pump up.

The more I pounced on it, better it got. Slightly. I at least finally got to hear slight Tire squeal, but never to abs. Pedal got firmer and more responsive. After sitting, back to the same old E36 M3.

What am I missing? I don't feel like the car is safe at this point.

Also, is there any parts bin big brakes I can swap on? Like wrx or something?

I've been through the brakes on my Legacy and they're really good at stopping me now, but not the easiest to live with everyday. My current setup is Hawk HP+ pads, Techna-Fit stainless braided lines with stock rotors and calipers with fresh Ate Type 200 fluid. My pedal is nice and firm and I've done a few open lapping days at our local road course with no problems (lack of hp helps here). The pads dust like crazy and squeal constantly so I can't recommend them but I'd look into the stainless braided lines and possibly a new master cylinder.

Your Legacy GT should already have larger front rotors than I have (just grabbed a set of caliper brackets and rotors off of an outback in a wrecking yard to upsize mine to what you have, 276mm rotors to 294mm). You've probably found this link already but it details what brakes came on various Subaru's, looks like anything bigger will require 17" wheels.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1265631

Adam

I'll put money on bad master cylinder.

In reply to BrokenYugo:

That's was my thought, but none of the usual tests and signs prove it. What makes you think master, and how can I confirm without throwing money at it.

Dusterbd13 wrote: In reply to BrokenYugo: That's was my thought, but none of the usual tests and signs prove it. What makes you think master, and how can I confirm without throwing money at it.

How old it is and the following

Dusterbd13 wrote: pedal went damn near the floor, if not all the way. Pedal does not pump up The more I pounced on it, better it got.

They can be bad and not leak around the pushrod.

Ok. It's the original 02 master.

Pedal won't pump up when stationary, but the more times I panic stopped the car, the better the pedal felt. Travel didn't seem to change, but feel and responsiveness did.

Does that help clarify some? I'm not trying to argue, just want to not throw money at it.

I've run pfc pads in my E28 in the past and I know they gained a lot of bite once you got some heat into them, that could explain what you are experiencing.

Adam

They love to seize the bottom slider pins on the front calipers.

My mom has an 04 wagon and I have to fight those damn things every time I do the brakes.

Early WRX brakes will fit. They are only slightly larger rotor but the caliper is much bigger. Will require running 16" rims. Rear brakes you want the set up from a 6-cyl Outback.

Did you replace the pads and rotors before or after the "trunking"?

Also, my 03 WRX had a recall for a low pedal condition.

Pads were replaced 5k before trunking, as well as rotors.

Went out to do some more testing. After repeated panic stops, the cross hatching is finally worn off the rotors. I'm beginning to think that there was air in the lines that I removed by bleeding, and that is allowing the pads to finally bed in properly. Brakes felt much better this go round from cold, but still nowhere near what they feel like after a few hard stops.

These are the pfc semi metallic pads, nothing special. I've used the same pads on tons of various cars, and they've always had much better cold bite than this car.

My current thought is that the issue was air and non beaded pads, compounded by piss poor cold stopping pads. Does this sound plausible? Or am I just trying too hard?

Probably air in the rear lines from a leak. There is a plastic cover where the lines come out of the car under the right rear seat. This holds the brake fluid so you can't see it, and keeps you from spraying the lines so they don't rust. Once fixed it took forever to get the air out.

5K should have bedded the pads depending on type of driving. I always used OEM spec premium pads and shoes on customer dd cars and trucks. I would bed in the brakes during a road test and warn the customer about not tail gating, high speed stops etc. for 500 miles. I also learned not to tell customers to drive normally during brake in. Their idea of normal was not always the same as mine.

5000 miles is about 4900 miles more than it takes to bed brakes on new rotors, 4975 if you followed the bedding procedure. Unless you put race car pads on it they should lock up cold no problem. Unless you really suck at bleeding brakes I'm still betting on a MC.

In reply to pjbgravely:

With all this jumping on the brakes I think a bad line would have popped by now.